Do Less Gain More?

[pebble]

WOW you really are an immature little prick aren't you. I Have been doing this longer than you have been alive and YOU are going to tell ME how to utilize my workouts, diet and nutrition. You have got to be kidding me son. Your a joke. A big fkn joke and now everyone see's that. I quit working out a little over 2 years ago because of a back injury i got at work. I weighed 190 pounds of lean muscle at the time doing the same routine i put fourth on here. I sat around for 2 years doing nothing but feeling sorry for myself because I could not workout any longer and ate like a pig. I got up to 210lbs of fat. After those 2 years went by i was able to get back in the gym and workout some. I wanted to loose the fatty weight BAD. I went on a diet that consist of :

6 meals a day:

Protein: body weight times 1.5 grams
Carbohydrates: Body weight times 1
Fats: Body weight times .22

I lost 45lbs of body fat in 4 months.
Went from 210lbs to 165lbs

2 weeks ago I changed my diet because my goal now is to add lean muscle.
Goal weight: 190lbs of lean muscle

6 meals a day:

Protein: body weight times 1.5
Carbohydrates: At least 40 grams at each meal= 240 grams everyday
Fats: 40 grams a day

How much weight have I gained in 2 weeks sense changing my diet to add lean muscle mass?

7lbs: I have gone from 165lbs to 172lbs AND GAINING.

I know what works son. Maybe one day when you grow up and actually become a bodybuilder or just want to workout a little give me a call and I will show you how to do it right. Until then keep chomping at the bit and chasing bones because I just threw you one when I sent you on that wild goose chase.

You did not gain 7lbs of muscle in the past two weeks.You are foolish if you think you did. It is primarily water weight, glycogen stores, and other intracellular content that is being replenished after being in a prolonged hypo-caloric state. On top of that you likely replenished some of your adiopcytes due to the recent stunting of your basal metabolic rate (during states of prolonged caloric deficits the body deceases synthesis of thyroid hormones) which makes it likely the body was unable to utilize the very rapid change in energy supply (from deficit to surplus).

And FYI each gram of CHO you added to your diet pulled in another 3g of H2O ...

Further more, protein turnover is limited to a pretty consistent rate in humans unless hormonal manipulations are present. Simply put, you can not physically gain 7lbs of muscle in two weeks. Heck, even someone using steroids would be happy to gain 3.5lbs of muscle/week. It would be an incredibly feat.

I am glad you have had your success with your diet. Losing 45lbs can be a challenge and takes dedication, but anyone that can stick to a hypo-caloric diet for long enough will reach their goals, regardless of their macro-nutrient split. I am not congratulating you on your diet, but rather your fortitude to stick with it. Good job. Any diet is successful if you adhere to it persistently.


Good luck with your continued success.

Stay persistent,
pebble

P.S. Stop trying to change the topic about you, and respond to my counterpoints. I will not respond to anymore of your off topic points. If however you start discuss to true topic at hand and not your strawman points I will revisit this conversation with you.

P.S.S. I have more experience than you would imagine working in the field of exercise physiology with amateurs, professionals, and persons with chronic illness, so stop calling me son.

 

[ben1793]

I am learning ALLOT here, atleast all the arguments have benefited someone in gaining knowledge
Just wanted to say, I am sorry I didnt make this post to start off any arguments just wanted to know what was best for me, looking at this I have been thinking of going onto ss then the next day I look and another good point so I think WORK HARD GAIN MORE, like I said I was going to try both programs but now am thinking of starting with the 5 day split first, maybee try for 1 week and see if I recover.
I just wanted to say I am a very new beginner, bench is like 90lb and deadlift is like 140lb
Very bad strength so just wanted to add that information if anyone knows which program will be more ideal for me, I love spending time in the gym but if it is going to slow stuff down I will slow it down a bit.
If the answer is like said before just try both I will do but after seeing how low I lift what one would you do if you were me?

 

[pebble]

I am learning ALLOT here, atleast all the arguments have benefited someone in gaining knowledge
Just wanted to say, I am sorry I didnt make this post to start off any arguments just wanted to know what was best for me, looking at this I have been thinking of going onto ss then the next day I look and another good point so I think WORK HARD GAIN MORE, like I said I was going to try both programs but now am thinking of starting with the 5 day split first, maybee try for 1 week and see if I recover.
I just wanted to say I am a very new beginner, bench is like 90lb and deadlift is like 140lb
Very bad strength so just wanted to add that information if anyone knows which program will be more ideal for me, I love spending time in the gym but if it is going to slow stuff down I will slow it down a bit.
If the answer is like said before just try both I will do but after seeing how low I lift what one would you do if you were me?

Starting strength or any program based around linear periodization.

 

[ben1793]

So I will definatly see better muscle growth on a SS rarther than a 5 day split?

 

[Powermaster]

So I will definatly see better muscle growth on a SS rarther than a 5 day split?

Yup. I'd suggest you take pebbles advice, also re-reading Cowpimps post and his training articles posted in the stickies here: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/60741-designing-training-routines-cowpimp.html

or you could listen to immature name callers with inflated egos.

Your choice.

Good luck!

 

[pebble]

No, not short term, but that is not the point. It will set you up for better long term gains. It will better prepare you for a 4 or 5 day split that focus on hypertrophy. It would be smartest to move to a 4 day upper/lower or push/pull split following SS. After some time (8-12 weeks at least) on that try a 5 day "body part" split.

 

[stewy101]

You did not gain 7lbs of muscle in the past two weeks.You are foolish if you think you did. It is primarily water weight, glycogen stores, and other intracellular content that is being replenished after being in a prolonged hypo-caloric state. On top of that you likely replenished some of your adiopcytes due to the recent stunting of your basal metabolic rate (during states of prolonged caloric deficits the body deceases synthesis of thyroid hormones) which makes it likely the body was unable to utilize the very rapid change in energy supply (from deficit to surplus).

And FYI each gram of CHO you added to your diet pulled in another 3g of H2O ...

Further more, protein turnover is limited to a pretty consistent rate in humans unless hormonal manipulations are present. Simply put, you can not physically gain 7lbs of muscle in two weeks. Heck, even someone using steroids would be happy to gain 3.5lbs of muscle/week. It would be an incredibly feat.

I am glad you have had your success with your diet. Losing 45lbs can be a challenge and takes dedication, but anyone that can stick to a hypo-caloric diet for long enough will reach their goals, regardless of their macro-nutrient split. I am not congratulating you on your diet, but rather your fortitude to stick with it. Good job. Any diet is successful if you adhere to it persistently.


Good luck with your continued success.

Stay persistent,
pebble

P.S. Stop trying to change the topic about you, and respond to my counterpoints. I will not respond to anymore of your off topic points. If however you start discuss to true topic at hand and not your strawman points I will revisit this conversation with you.

P.S.S. I have more experience than you would imagine working in the field of exercise physiology with amateurs, professionals, and persons with chronic illness, so stop calling me son.

Taking all that sudo science mumbo jumbo bullshit is making me tired. I am a grown 41 year old man who has been doing this for 26 years. I have spent time up and down the east and west coast of the United States putting my time in the gym far longer than you have been alive son. Again, you have no points on this because you are still wet under the collar and have not had the experience or time put in like I have. I have been researching this for many many years little one and have come up with the perfect formula that I have been using for the last 10 years.

I have it down to a perfect science kid. I can loose, gain or maintain any kind of lean or bulky muscle weight that I want. lol it is an easy task for me. The proof is in the pics. Go to my page and look at them, but please don't get a hard on because I don't swing that way. Little kids like you give this sport a bad name with all the trash you talk. Like you know what the hell you are doing. Like I said kid Talk is cheap and getting the job done is a bitch when you don't know what your doing, and obviously you don't. And yes I keep myself very hydrated with drinking at least a gallion of sweet spring water every day, It does a body good. Keep grasping for straws kid, you might learn a thing or two.

Oh by the way I see your from the Carina Nebula, an estimated distance between 6,500 and 10,000 light years from Earth. Did you come by yourself or are there more like you here on earth. I hope they are coming back to pick you up sometime soon. I am sure your kind miss you very much.

 

[slownsteady]

Mike Mentzer, Dorian Yates, even Branch warren are doing less total sets. Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman, and many others go more total sets. I think you'll find out what works best for you in time. I feel that I overtrain very easily, so I do only 10-12 heavy sets per workout about 5 days or less per week. I haven't got photo's up but I plan on it, and I'm usually the thickest, freakiest, full musclebellied guy at all my gyms. Also I don't use tons of gear. I think 5'8'' @ 165 with decent abs is thick, but it's how it looks that freaks ya out!!! Phil Heath's arms and shoulders are genetics. You'll find what works best for you.

 

[Mattweim]

I think ive been overtraining

 

[ben1793]

So you are saying if my genetics are good I could recover very fast? I trained 4 day split which was very bad like I said before it had stuff like shoulders or triceps day after chest...I recovered from it, I am just having a hard time geting my head around how a person can train 3 days and get same results as training for 5+ days.

 

[ben1793]

edit: its ok, I am just going to try a routine and stick to it, thanks for the help.

 

[pebble]

The body has limits to how fast it can build muscle. This means that stimulus above the threshold needed to reach this point is almost useless. When you are new to training the threshold is low. I am sure almost all of us in this thread can agree its easy to grow when you are new to training. Take advantage of this. When you need a larger stimulus to see adaptions. Add another day so that you have time to add more exercisess to specific movement patterns.

There is no rush with this. Take your time and enjoy the journey.

 

[grotto72]

Has anyone mentioned Dorian Yates' style of high intensity training? 2 warm up sets followed by 1 set of ur max effort to 8-10 reps with some forced reps at the end to train the negative to failure. Watch his "blood and guts" training videos on youtube.

I saw last nite that when he was winnng all those olympia's he was only doing 3.5hrs a week of weight training while other guys were doing 2 hours a day.

 

[stewy101]

The body has limits to how fast it can build muscle. This means that stimulus above the threshold needed to reach this point is almost useless. When you are new to training the threshold is low. I am sure almost all of us in this thread can agree its easy to grow when you are new to training. Take advantage of this. When you need a larger stimulus to see adaptions. Add another day so that you have time to add more exercisess to specific movement patterns.

There is no rush with this. Take your time and enjoy the journey.

 

[Big G]

Well... That was quite a read!

Pebbles, You clearly have a head-full of research and studies. How on earth did you acquire all that? Honestly. I'm interested (at least in knowing how).

Name-caling & ranting aside, I must confess that I'm a bit more on the Stewy side (not to be confused with ON stewy's side.). I've read my fair share of studies, broscience and wotnot in my time, and incorporated numerous lessons & tidbits into a general muddle of knowledge that I draw from to attain my goals. None of it is clear enough for me to tell you that an increased level of beta-hydroxy-nonsensiculis will outperform an increased level of thyroidiculous-hormoaninanwhinin But, even without all that, I've been known to cut from a blubbery 200lb to a ripped 160lb, then bulked to a strong & beefy 200lb inside two years (check my journals on this site if you like). Like stewy I've also been out for two years for surgeries & physical therapy (genetic disorder, not injury related), but I'm back to cutting again and I'm sure I'll have no problems bulking back up when I'm done.

With that said...

BEN... Chill out! This isn't rocket science! Give it time, play around and keep a journal. If you find that you used to be able to add weight or reps every week, but suddenly can't, flick back through your journal and see what you were doing. Maybe doing less will enable you to do more. I know, for example, that if I do legs more than once a week then my strength gains come slower than if I do them once a week. Why? Because obviously I need a week to heal.

Similarly, as time rolls by you'll probably find that religiously working squats & deadlifts HARD will pack meat all over your body (despite hypertrophy being "local") whereas the pussy-ass bitches parading around doing DB lunges & burpees will all be the same size they were when you joined the gym years prior.

None of this entire conversation will amount to a pile of testosterone if you don't enjoy your workouts and stick at it. Do whatever the hell you like. Seriously. Could you have gained more muscle faster by doing things differently? Of course. Everyone could. Even Pebbles. Could you have gotten stronger faster by choosing a different program? Yup. Probably. But BIG WHOOP! Who gives a rats ass!? You're not in competition with the imaginary you that couldashouldawoulda done better. You're on a long road of self discovery and enjoyment with the added benefit of being bigger & stronger week by week, year by year. Just grab some iron, pick it up, put it down and see if you can move more iron next week.

I'm not advocating you immediately try to deadlift 400lb with a rounded back. You can't be a complete jackass about it. But you don't need to know anywhere near the depth of knowledge that Pebbles knows in order to grow big and strong.

Try 5x5 five days a week with supersets. See how it goes. Try 20rep squats four times a week. See how it goes. Try BO DB rows while picking your nose with the other hand if you like. Do whatever. It'll be more than apparent how your body works in no time.

So anyway... Stay cool. Don't worry. Keep a journal. And have fun! You'll learn how you react to what you put yourself through after you've put yourself through it. It's not a race. Ask a question here and there along the way. I found myself asking how to reach 5% body-fat recently, and I've been at this shit for years.

There's always something to learn, but the answers to most of the questions are found under a huge pile of iron! You have to move the iron to find the answers. =)

Enjoy!

 

[slownsteady]

That's funny that I weigh 165. Actually I can do barbell curls with 165 for reps no problem. I believe I'm at about 260-265lbs @ 5'8''depending on stress and what I've eaten. I think I've been training around 17yrs. But yeah, training less often, with less sets has been good to me. I've tried Jay Cutlers training and Ronnie Coleman's, but my body get's to worn out I think. I Think I train more like Yates, but more sets and 10-12 reps, but heavy as I can. I cheat on form almost always, cause it feels better to me. Can you keep training and find youre way.

 

[pebble]

Well... That was quite a read!

Pebbles, You clearly have a head-full of research and studies. How on earth did you acquire all that? Honestly. I'm interested (at least in knowing how).

For a long time I was paid to train professional athelets and professional hopefuls. At that level of training you better know why you are doing something and have a way to back it up. I have supplemented that with training persons in clinical settings.

To put things simply I am paid to know the research and how to apply it. This is a hobby for most, but a career for me.

 

[Big G]

For a long time I was paid to train professional athelets and professional hopefuls. At that level of training you better know why you are doing something and have a way to back it up. I have supplemented that with training persons in clinical settings.

To put things simply I am paid to know the research and how to apply it. This is a hobby for most, but a career for me.

How fortunate then that you are on this site and kind enough to share your knowledge with the rest of us. Thanks for that.

Off topic, I know, but where has your knowledge come from? Can you recommend books, websites or other resources where an inquisitive mind could potentially go in search of a more in-depth understanding?

 

[stewy101]

For a long time I was paid to train professional athelets and professional hopefuls. At that level of training you better know why you are doing something and have a way to back it up. I have supplemented that with training persons in clinical settings.

To put things simply I am paid to know the research and how to apply it. This is a hobby for most, but a career for me.

Just wondering what type of formula do you use for your diet and nutritional needs and what type of workout program do you have? Just got off another thread where they were talking about protein intake for ones day and how high most people keep there's. i was at 1.5 time body weight per day which i roughly keep it between 240 and 260 grams per day but after reading through all the evidence I have decided to drop it to between 1.0 and 1.25 I know we got off to a rough start and want to analogize sincerely for my actions pebble. I am not a bad guy and really think I was a dick the other day.
I know your not a bad guy ether and just want to man up and tell you that.

 

[pebble]

Its not a problem.

Well right now I am in between programs. I was feeling rundown from the routine leading up to the end of the year. I have been doing a pretty basic full body routine right now 3 days a week. As for diet it really depends on what my goals are. Right now it's a general 25(P)/45(C)/30(F) split. Within the next 2 weeks I will be transitioning to carb cycling. Protein and fats will be much higher.

Like I have said before you eat protein because you like it or have reasons beyond protein synthesis go ahead, but just remember that we don't need that much for growth. Realizing this can help cut down the cost of shakes for guys that have trouble eating enough real food, but are still trying to get very large numbers of protein.

P.S. The numbers are obviously for a natural lifter. If someone is using AAS they need to up that protein. Thats a whole different ball game.

 

[stewy101]

Its not a problem.

Well right now I am in between programs. I was feeling rundown from the routine leading up to the end of the year. I have been doing a pretty basic full body routine right now 3 days a week. As for diet it really depends on what my goals are. Right now it's a general 25(P)/45(C)/30(F) split. Within the next 2 weeks I will be transitioning to carb cycling. Protein and fats will be much higher.

Like I have said before you eat protein because you like it or have reasons beyond protein synthesis go ahead, but just remember that we don't need that much for growth. Realizing this can help cut down the cost of shakes for guys that have trouble eating enough real food, but are still trying to get very large numbers of protein.

P.S. The numbers are obviously for a natural lifter. If someone is using AAS they need to up that protein. Thats a whole different ball game.

Thanks for your valuable input. I will take this all into account. Even at 41 I still have a lot to learn and do strive to learn something new each and everyday. I will take all that I can sponge and use as much of it that I can.......

 

[BroncoJunkie]

If you're a hard gainer, i'd recommend always stick with GVT, and always vary your exercises and reps. You can do this forever and continue to gain.

 

[YSGC]

I know guys in prison who only eat 3 meals a day and only hit the weights 3x a week if that (due to riots and what not). Not to mention there are no free weights. The rest of the time is all body weight exercise's. And these guys are swoll as **** fit as can be. Matter fact they look like they could be on gear. Now some might say genetics. I say not true. I say these guys are more motivated and work harder than most. These guys dont have the luxuries of protein shakes, amino acids and etc. What they do have is drive, they are consistent with everything they do(with some help from the state). Its work or die for them.LOL. Okay maybe a little extras on that, but hopefully you get my point.