Eating before bed (carbs)........

[P-funk]

gotta head to the gym. Hope to get back to this later.

Read the first study Jodi posted.

The fact that the subjects did not do any training or exercise makes it tough to apply to a population that is going to be training and having higher amounts of caloric expenditure.

Also, did you see the meals they were eating?

High Carb group:
Vegetable Lasagna
skim milk ice cream
orange juice

High fat group:
vegetable lasagna
full cream ice cream
orange juice

That is a little different than eggs and oats. Or steak and sweet potato. The meal in the group that ate high carbs isn't balanced at all.


I understand what you are saying Jodi about metabolic differences.....the thing is, I am talking about healthy populations. I think this stuff gets blown out of proportion because people take information or research pertaining to populations that aren't as healthy and they try and apply it accross the board. The answer lies somewhere in the middle more often than not.

Also, with regard to overweight people or people with slow metabolisms.......Hundreds of thousands of people lose weight each year using wight watchers. they don't watch the types of foods that they eat, only the amount. Most of them save up their points and drink alcohol at night or they eat those silly weight watchers ice cream treats. they still lose weight though.

Not that I think weight watchers is great either.

Again, I think that the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Another question I have regarding GH release in men. The largest surge happens in the 3rd and 4th stages of REM. It takes several hours to get into those stages (some probably don't even get into them). That said, I wonder if the meal (with carbs) has already been digested by the time you reach that point in your slumber (if you ever do).

 

[Jodi]

That certainly explains your strictness. I think everyone would understand if you noted it down like this.

It may be a good idea to formulate your strict rules with this in mind. Keeping things a bit more relative can't hurt and people would be less inclined to think you're being rude.

I don't think people think I'm being rude when they are the ones coming to me for advice. You come to me for advice, you are going to get strict. I hardly call that rude. I don't fluff things. I tell it like it is. "You eat such and such and you will gain fat." Please expalin how that is rude?

 

[Jodi]

gotta head to the gym. Hope to get back to this later.

Read the first study Jodi posted.

The fact that the subjects did not do any training or exercise makes it tough to apply to a population that is going to be training and having higher amounts of caloric expenditure.

Also, did you see the meals they were eating?

High Carb group:
Vegetable Lasagna
skim milk ice cream
orange juice

High fat group:
vegetable lasagna
full cream ice cream
orange juice

That is a little different than eggs and oats. Or steak and sweet potato. The meal in the group that ate high carbs isn't balanced at all.


I understand what you are saying Jodi about metabolic differences.....the thing is, I am talking about healthy populations. I think this stuff gets blown out of proportion because people take information or research pertaining to populations that aren't as healthy and they try and apply it accross the board. The answer lies somewhere in the middle more often than not.

Also, with regard to overweight people or people with slow metabolisms.......Hundreds of thousands of people lose weight each year using wight watchers. they don't watch the types of foods that they eat, only the amount. Most of them save up their points and drink alcohol at night or they eat those silly weight watchers ice cream treats. they still lose weight though.

Not that I think weight watchers is great either.

Again, I think that the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Another question I have regarding GH release in men. The largest surge happens in the 3rd and 4th stages of REM. It takes several hours to get into those stages (some probably don't even get into them). That said, I wonder if the meal (with carbs) has already been digested by the time you reach that point in your slumber (if you ever do).

However you guys want to think that's fine. I practice what I preach and if something doesn't work for me I preach that too. This being the carbs in the evening.

Also remember most of the people coming here asking questions are not healthy individuals. Most of them are newbies who are overweight, don't know how to exercise and don't know how to diet properly and are still learning. IMO it's best to teach them the basics and then let them experiment once they know their bodies better. If you don't know your body then how will you ever know if something is working for you or against you?

I should note however that I feel if someone works out in the evening then YES, you should have carbs for PWO regardless of the time of day. Those will be digested fast.

Regardless, my original statements still stand

Cortisol
Cicadian Rythms

ps. I just got back from my ND and asked her opinion on this matter. She agreed with me on most of it. Cortisol, ciradian rythms etc.....she also said those that have good metabolisms without any metabolic issues or for those that are not overweight do fine with carbs in the evening but in a case like myself and others like me (eg. fat gene, predisposed to diabetes, hearth disease etc...) then it's best to stay away from starchy carbs but occassionally a small piece of fruit in the evening is exceptable.

 

[ABCs]

I believe that if you have a tank of a body like Funk, then carbs at night won't have any side effects. However, if your bodies internals aren't as efficient and trained as some of these peolpe on here, then carbs will do their worst on you. I believe this matter can be solved on a case to case basis rather than a "one rule fits all." Again, I don't know much about this topic, just what I've pieced together through personal experience and reading.

Me personaly? I keep my meals as balanced as possible... to fit the time of day. I have the comfort of working out in the afternoon which enables me to taper my carb intake as the day goes on and still be able to get the proper nutrition I need for very solid workouts. As the day goes on, my carb intake deminishes and my last meal avoids carbs at all costs. Again, I believe this has more to do with my body type, my genetics, and how my body reacts to certain macros.

 

[Tom_B]

Jodi I get where you're coming from. One side of my family is fat, the other side is really skinny fat. I wasn't blessed with some sort of magical metabolism or great genes, when I was a kid I had become so overweight and top heavy that my knees actually began to give out on me. My legs couldn't support the weight that my top was carrying and it was affecting my growth. So I began a childhood of unhealthy eating (or well lack there of), I managed to drop my weight but what was the result? 120lbs with 15-18% BF. It has taken me near 3 years now to get lean. Didn't matter how much bulking or cutting I did, no matter how strict and anal I got over my diet (and I mean strict) I just couldn't get lean. So you know what I did? I got fed up, I stopped worrying about "GI" or eating carbs before bed, or not eating carbs on this day, etc. I stopped being so up tight about my diet and started to focus on supplying my body with adequate nutrition, making sure I got a good dose Of vitamins/minerals, healthy fats, fiber, protein and I just let everything else fall into place. If I wanted a cookie, I ate it. If I wanted a protein bar I ate it. So long as it fitted into my overall daily calories/macros I ate it. This is when I started to notice a change in my physquie .. I just started to lean out. My body weight wasn't changing but I was getting leaner, and leaner .. I'm now at about 9% BF (if not lower, those pics in my gallery are outdated), and I haven't "dieted" in any sense to get this lean, if I was hungry I ate, and if I was starving and doubled up my last meal of the day (which would be about 70G worth of carbs) I ate it!

Now I'm not saying that everyone is so lucky, and they can do what I did and see the same results .. I'm just trying to point out (like P-funk and Emma are saying) that alot of things in the Bodybuilding world are taken out of context, with GI being a prime example. It's flawed, it isn't a great measure for the amount of insulin that'll be going through you (you would want to look at GL for that), plus when you combine a Carbohydrate with EFA's and protein the GI is SIGNIFICANTLY lowered. Another example is everyone always being so worried about diary and fruit when cutting because of the "sugar". Forget the fact that they're LOADED with vitamins/minerals, phytochemicals and fiber. People get so worked up over the 'little' things and forget really the main reason for changing their lifestyles .. to live healthier!

But yes while eating carbs late at night might hindering or slow peoples results what were trying to get across here is too say "If you eat carbs in your last meal of the day you'll get fat" is ridiculous. Like Emma pointed out .. if you take someone (and this being especially true if said person is in a Hypocaloric state) and they eat say .. 200 calories worth of carbs in their last meal, now hypothetically lets say ALL of those 200 calories are stored as fat .. it's insignificant. It's a dot!
Like you said, people need to start experimenting for themselves and figuring out what works for them and not someone else. For me personally, I love carbs in my last meal. I've continued to get lean while doing so, plus I find it really helps my workouts, since I workout first thing in the AM. There are going to be studies that encourage carbs in the evening, and then alternatively there will be studies that discourage carbs in the evening .. that's just how it's always going to be, becuase everyone is different.

PS Jodi do you have any more studies about the cortisol and Circadian Rhythms? I'm not subscribed to the journal you posted and can't view the full study ..

 

[Jodi]

I agree that the GI is very flawed. Completely agree on that and I barely ever advise someone to follow it. Sometimes I direct them the GI because it gives them a point of reference and a better idea of healthier food choices but to follow it exactly is ludicrous.

As far as the studies, no, I don't have any subscriptions either. That was one I found through a simple search. Most of my info on circadian rhythms and cortisol has come from medical books that my doctor loaned to me to read. I see her in a week. I will get the names of the books. I asked to read them because I have adrenal issues as well.

 

[Tom_B]

Ya when giving people diet advice I generally tell them to stick to low GI foods as well, just for the fact that generally lower GI foods are healthier ..
I hear ya on the health problems .. I'm currently going through some stomach/bowel issues right now... between the very taxing workout routine I've been following, + the daily SF energy drinks + the 5-6 hours of sleep a night has finally caught up with me. I've screwed something up in my body .. and I'm constantly falling asleep randomly, I can barley sit down in a class or read a book without passing out.

PS if you could get the names of those books I would really appreciate it! I'm going to be in Uni in a few months and any reading material like that would be great!

 

[Witchblade]

I don't think people think I'm being rude when they are the ones coming to me for advice. You come to me for advice, you are going to get strict. I hardly call that rude. I don't fluff things. I tell it like it is. "You eat such and such and you will gain fat." Please expalin how that is rude?

I'm saying some people are inclined to think you're being rude when you give very strict and absolute advice, regardless of what I think or your intentions.
I'm not talking about the people that come to you either, I'm talking about some random people in random threads that probably don't know you.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic.


I think we can safely conclude that there is no definitive answer to the question in this thread yet and that everyone should experiment for himself?

 

[ABCs]

I think we can safely conclude that there is no definitive answer to the question in this thread yet and that everyone should experiment for himself?

I would say so.

 

[Jodi]

I'm saying some people are inclined to think you're being rude when you give very strict and absolute advice, regardless of what I think or your intentions.
I'm not talking about the people that come to you either, I'm talking about some random people in random threads that probably don't know you.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic.


I think we can safely conclude that there is no definitive answer to the question in this thread yet and that everyone should experiment for himself?

I don't care about random people that don't know me......you either love me or you hate me.............

 

[Jodi]

Anyway, I think a good conclusion to this subject would be this:

Emma, PFunk and I have all tried many things with our diets. We know our bodies and we know what works and what doesn't work. Sort of like the PWO debate. None of our opinions are wrong, it just comes down to the individual. When you know your body well enough experimenting is the way to go. If something you tried doesn't seem to work, then go back to what you were doing.

If you have a good metabolism and you don't have trouble sleeping at night and you want carbs at night, try it......if it affects your sleep, or wake up in the middle of the night hungry or you notice weight gain then stop the carbs at night.

There is no one answer for everyone. I can't eat carbs at night because it will affect my sleep and with my slower metabolism, I can't digest them that quickly and it does affect my weight. Emma and P like carbs at night and they feel it doesn't affect their weight or sleep. The key thing is that we all know our bodies pretty damn well.

It's good that we all have different points of views because it give all the members options.

 

[ABCs]

^Werd up to that. Learning your body is probably the best thing a healthy person can do. You'll start to learn what works and doesn't wor kfor your own body which may or may not apply to others. Pretty much jsut use what you learn on these boards as a guide line to developing your own system. Tweak here, tweak there and boom, you'll have a solid schedule and diet in no time.

 

[bigsahm21]

Jodi I will say you're advice about stopping carbs to help with sleep patterns is absolutely spot on. My metabolism is pretty fast so I ate them previously, as I found it helped with recovery...but I wasn't sleeping well. Stopped the oats in my last meal and book, slept like a baby the very first night.

To each his own

 

[robousy]

Eat cheese and drink some green tea before bed if you want some wacky dreams.

 

[Uthinkso]

Eat cheese and drink some green tea before bed if you want some wacky dreams.

Ya know now that you mention it I've been eating cottage cheese every night for the past month or so. I have been dreaming of lots os strange shit. The other night I was married to my wife and her maid of honor, some sort of polyamorous deal.

 

[robousy]

now mix the green tea and you'll be married to her mom too!

 

[danny81]

anything else good to eat besides cottage cheese.

 

[robousy]

steak.

 

[leg_press]

anything else good to eat besides cottage cheese.

Most of the time I have a casein shake before bed just something quick and easy to pound down, but if what PFunk and Emma are saying is true then I may have you start including some oats with that.

 

[P-funk]

Most of the time I have a casein shake before bed just something quick and easy to pound down, but if what PFunk and Emma are saying is true then I may have you start including some oats with that.

i am not saying it is 'true'. I am just throwing it out there. I try as hard as I can to never speak in definites....things are always changing. Science always changes. I try and read as much as possible, think, re-think and add to things that I have learned in the past. What I thought last year may not be exactly what I think today and it wont be exactly what I think next year.

Two things that we can be certain about:

1) Research proves NOTHING. I only suggest statistical evidence. Depending on how the researchers design the study, and set up the statistical analysis, they can prove whatever the hell they want. That is why it is important to go back to the entire study and see for yourself. See if you it can be related to the real world. See what it is suggesting. But realize that it is not proving. It is just saying that...in this situation, under these circumstances, with these variables, we found this to be true and it is possible that this can be generalized to the public.

and

2) Science is always changing. You can show me 5 studies that say one thing and I can show you 5 more that say the exact opposite. You need to stay on top of the stuff because it is always changing.



A lot of people tend to swing to one extreme or the other when it comes to diet. I try and stay in the middle because often times, that is where the real story lies and that is what can work for most of the normal healthy people, most of the time. But not always.


There is a lot of individualization in this stuff, but for the most part, the basics work...ie, take in less calories to lose weight. How you break up those calories will probably have a significant effect on the "type" of weight that you lose (muscle or fat) and the efficiency of your diet.


I have read some many damn books (from NHE, to Berardi's Precision Nutrition and Metabolic Advantage, to Lyles stuff, to text books, to articles, studies, atkins, zone, etc....). I should really try and compile everything into one long ass article on dieting and see if it can help people make sense of this stuff.

 

[Plateau_Max]

There's a few things I'd like to toss into this boiling caldron of Dietary knowledge.

Some things that bothered me about the study provided (in supplement to the already discussed flaws) mostly was the vaguity of it to begin with. Also I never trust a study that involves so few people... I lost my faith in what I was reading the moment my eyes scanned across "took 10 women" Most of the books that I read that I actually apply and pass on knowledge from have study after study that include several hundred or more people, and always a control group or a placebo. There needs to be a base group for all comparison, not just black and white, yes and no, this or that.

My personal take on carbs as far as eating them before bed-

If you're bulking I would think of a conservative well planned carb intake before bed is good simply to keep glycogen stores in tact and prevent the body from breaking down skeletal muscle (which it loves to do during sleep). By well planned I mean you really need to take Circadian rhythm, and cortisol levels into account. The big way I see carbs disruption circadian rhythm is the insulin spike. This can be dulled by consuming very low GI carbs that process energy at a steady rate, as well as also consuming added Fiber and Casein both of which cause the digestion process to be slower and steadier. Really you're trying to battle the surge and crash effect of carbs.

During a cut... I can see a slight need for carb consumption, following the same rules of course. This is mostly to preserve the breakdown of lean mass which is of course a 24/7 struggle when you're on a cut, but would obviously be much less of a degree and much less of a necessity than it would be when you're on a bulk and you're going for the "as much gain as possible, as little loss as possible" approach.

In the end of course and Pfunk and Jodi have so ellequently added - Your body is your own, you can never set exact standards that can be applied across the board. There are far too many variables in the equation, the equation that results in YOUR perfect outcome. Your age, your genetics, your day to day lifestyle, the climate where you live, allergies to foods you may have, conditions, diseases, THE LIST GOES ON. Read, study, apply, and see if it works. Whether something works or not, that's one more thing you know about how your body works with food.

 

[Ronald]

I used to have a peanut butter and whole wheat sandwhich with a protein shake before i went to bed, now im actually trying just protein before bed, (cottage cheese) it makes me fart all night long and on then on the way to work. and it smells terrible. luckily im single again haha

 

[Ronald]

oh and Ill be the guinea pig for this experiment which was my point in saying that. but then again i was actually gaining before and now am cutting....will let you know how it works out in a few weeks