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Fat-Burning Drugs

Duncans Donuts said:
LAM, just checked out the old UA experiment thread you had. Curious as to what kind of diet you were on when you lost the 2.25 percent body fat (besides having the nightly dessert)

I can't remember but I'm pretty sure I was going isocaloric at that time. But I usually up the protein to 40% of cals when I'm aiming for lets say 8-10% bf. when I go lower than that then I up protein to about 55% of cals and add in 25 grams of BCAA's a day...
 
LAM said:
holly cow ! that is an insane amout of UA. it's doses like that that cause people to suffer from liver failure due from compete shutdown of oxidative phosphoralation... :finger:

Yeah thats pretty crazy all right :eek:
 
LAM said:
holly cow ! that is an insane amout of UA. it's doses like that that cause people to suffer from liver failure due from compete shutdown of oxidative phosphoralation... :finger:
Hey, at least you will still have the substrate level phosphorylation. :laugh: We actually had a question about DNP on my Bio final today. Respiratory uncoupling is one of the fun things we get to learn about.
 
PirateFromHell said:
Hey, at least you will still have the substrate level phosphorylation. :laugh: We actually had a question about DNP on my Bio final today. Respiratory uncoupling is one of the fun things we get to learn about.
You musn't forget that substrate level phosphorylation nets a relatively low amount of ATP, only two per glucose molecule, as opposed to oxidative phosphorylation, which nets 34-36
 
To all Clenbuterol users check this out !

{beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle -- Burniston et al., 10.1152/japplphysiol.00642.2004 -- Journal of Applied Physiology:

1 Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom
2 Academic Unit of Molecular Vascular Medicine, University of Leeds, Leeds, United Kingdom

* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: j.burniston@livjm.ac.uk.

High doses of the {beta}2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 µg kg-1, with peak apoptosis (0.35 ± 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg-1. In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 ± 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 µg kg-1. Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. {beta}-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte {beta}1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte {beta}2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, {beta}2-AR stimulation by clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through {beta}1- and {beta}2-AR, respectively.
 
You musn't forget that substrate level phosphorylation nets a relatively low amount of ATP, only two per glucose molecule, as opposed to oxidative phosphorylation, which nets 34-36

Translation? :scratch:
 
Duncans Donuts said:
Translation? :scratch:
My Biology Balls are bigger than yours. :D
 
Mudge said:
Sodium usinate, not usnic acid specifically. So far I am not impressed, 6 days, 600mg ED. At least its not expensive.

Bummer.
Sorry to hear that. :( I wouldn't use it myself. I just kept the link that topolo posted some time ago. I'd rather use DNP, personally.
 
Muscle Gelz Transdermals
IronMag Labs Prohormones
gococksDJS said:
You musn't forget that substrate level phosphorylation nets a relatively low amount of ATP, only two per glucose molecule, as opposed to oxidative phosphorylation, which nets 34-36
I don't think you could get 36 ATP per glucose molecule from oxidative phosphorylation. What is your field of study, BTW?
 
LAM said:
{beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle -- Burniston et al., 10.1152/japplphysiol.00642.2004 -- Journal of Applied Physiology:

1 Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom
2 Academic Unit of Molecular Vascular Medicine, University of Leeds, Leeds, United Kingdom

* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: j.burniston@livjm.ac.uk.

High doses of the {beta}2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 µg kg-1, with peak apoptosis (0.35 ± 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg-1. In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 ± 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 µg kg-1. Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. {beta}-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte {beta}1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte {beta}2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, {beta}2-AR stimulation by clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through {beta}1- and {beta}2-AR, respectively.
I saw this over at CEM, scary stuff. I tossed away my clen a couple of weeks ago because of health concerns. Glad that I did.
 
Can someone speak to me, in complicated but not excessively so terms, about how exactly UA or Sodium Usinc acts as a fat burner ?
 
I though that was already done, its a mitochondrial uncoupler like UCP-1. It makes the use of food for energy very inneficient, making caloric burn to obtain energy from food sources lose around 50% efficiency. Takes money to make money, takes calories to obtain calories.

Will usnic acid be banned next?
Anthony Almada

May 2004


The tenacity with which some nutraceutical formulators and marketers search for novel weight loss-inducing agents is striking. One of the more recent illustrations is the inclusion of usnic acid, as a sodium salt or the free acid, in dietary supplements claiming to have anti-obesity effects. The Food and Drug Administration has its sights set on it as a candidate for market removal, following the fate of ephedra and, potentially, bitter orange and aristolochic acid. (Bitter orange was discussed on this page in the April issue, and aristolochic acid will be discussed next month.)

Its start as a supplement
Usnic acid (UA) is a polyphenol expressed by a variety of lichens. Additionally, UA has been described in hops resin and Kombucha tea.1,2

The genesis of UA???s positioning as a weight-loss nutraceutical appears to emanate from a single paper employing in vitro assessments of UA as an ???uncoupling agent??? in mouse liver mitochondria.3

Uncoupling agents effectively render the process of aerobic metabolism in mitochondria???which couples oxidation of metabolic fuels to the attachment of phosphate groups to ATP precursors, yielding ATP, the axial molecule of bioenergetics???less efficient and thus energy is ???leaked??? out. This manifests as heat and an increase in metabolic rate, known as thermogenesis.

In this in vitro study, UA was shown to be more potent than an infamous uncoupler, 2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP). DNP was sold as a drug in the 1930s in the United States, the product of studies at Stanford University showing a relationship between dose, metabolic rate increase and weight loss.4

In these studies, weight loss (without any dietary control) averaged 7.8kg without any apparent effects on food consumption. Hypertensive subjects also experienced significant decreases in blood pressure. However, the widespread use of DNP eventually led to its procurement without medical supervision, and the sharp dose-dependent relationship on metabolic rate led to some individuals being ???cooked to death,??? which led to its subsequent removal from the market.

Effects on the liver
In the above study comparing UA to DNP, UA was about 50 times more potent an uncoupler. This single in vitro study, despite the absence of any in vivo studies examining UA???s effect upon thermogenesis or body weight, fostered a number of dietary supplements incorporating pure UA or its sodium salt. Most notable was a product called LipoKinetix, which was associated with severe chemical hepatitis (elevated liver enzymes in blood, jaundice, vomiting) in seven previously healthy men and women.5 The duration of use in this cohort ranged from 10 days to 12 weeks. LipoKinetix was comprised of phenylpropanolamine, sodium usnate, a thyroid hormone precursor, diiodothyronine, yohimbine and caffeine. Thus, attributing the acute hepatotoxicity to UA alone is unfounded. Notably, after each of the subjects ceased using this product, their liver enzyme profiles normalised.

Recent research has subjected mouse liver cells to UA in vitro and found both oxidative stress and toxicity, which could be prevented by the pre-addition of a fat-soluble antioxidant like alpha-tocopheryl succinate (vitamin E).6 Interestingly, DNP also showed similar oxidative and toxic effects, which were in fact not mitigated by vitamin E.

Another study found high-dose (200mg/kg) injections of UA for five days had no significant effect on blood liver enzymes but a demonstrable effect on liver cell size and shape, indicative of a toxic effect.7

One area of promising use for UA in hepatology is with an inherited metabolic defect called tyrosinemia I, an often-fatal fibrotic liver disease marked by disordered collagen metabolism. Recent investigations suggest that UA, which inhibits the plant form of the deranged enzyme characteristic of this disease, may indeed be a candidate for clinical therapy.8,9

Anthony Almada is president and chief scientific officer of IMAGINutrition Inc. www.imaginutrition.com
Respond: editor@ffnmag.com

References
1. Stevens R. The chemistry of hop constituents. Chem Rev 1966;67:19-71.
2. Blanc PJ. Characterization of the tea fungus metabolites. Biotech Lett 1996;18:139-42.
3. Abo-Khatwa AN, et al. Lichen acids as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation of mouse-liver mitochondria. Nat Toxins 1996;4:96-102.
4. Tainter ML, et al. Dinitrophenol in the treatment of obesity: final report. J Am Med Assoc 1933;101:322-36.
5. Favreau JT, et al. Severe hepatotoxicity associated with the dietary supplement LipoKinetix. Ann Intern Med 2002;136:590-5.
6. Han D, et al. Usnic acid-induced necrosis of cultured mouse hepatocytes: inhibition of mitochondrial function and oxidative stress. Biochem Pharmacol 2004;67:439-51.
7. Pramyothin P, et al. Hepatotoxic effect of (+)usnic acid from Usnea siamensis Wainio in rats, isolated rat hepatocytes and isolated rat liver mitochondria. J Ethnopharm 2004;90:381-7.
8. Hanauske-Abel HM, et al. Tyrosinemia I, a model for human diseases mediated by 2-oxoacid-utilizing dioxygenases: hepatotoxin suppression by NTBC does not normalize hepatic collagen metabolism. J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr 2002;35:73-8.
9. Romagni JG, et al. The phytotoxic lichen metabolite, usnic acid, is a potent inhibitor of plant p-hydroxyphenylpyruvate dioxygenase. FEBS Lett 2000;480:301-5.

See also: www.usnicacid.net
 
I am only at day six with this sodium usinate @ 600mg ED but I expected more.

What was your dose and time duration?

I'm on a chicken breast, brown rice diet with olive oil and fish oil as my fats. I do allow 4 eggs in the AM other than that, no regular saturated fats are in my diet. Carbs are about 250 per day.
 
I'm on day 6...my temperature usually stays elevated to 99.8 degrees for hours after ingesting it. On a calorie deficit I've had great results so far. I'm lost about a quarter inch around my navel (I'm really restricting the calories big time though) I'm doing 500 mg/ed.
 
1/4" for me as well, which is not at all impressive compared to T3. In fact at my peak I can drop that much in a DAY on T3 and I was doing 60mcg at that time.

My bodyweight is unchanged, I'm still doing under 3k calories a day.
 
Are you guys splinting up your dosages or taking the entire mg in one serving?
 
Mudge said:
1/4" for me as well, which is not at all impressive compared to T3. In fact at my peak I can drop that much in a DAY on T3 and I was doing 60mcg at that time.

My bodyweight is unchanged, I'm still doing under 3k calories a day.

I've been on my so called cut for about a month and a half now. I'd dropped from 35 1/2 to 34 in that time and dropped a little more than a quarter of that since the UA in only a week. Seemed like a pretty reasonable loss to me, but if you could drop an inch in a day on t3..that does seem pretty weak in relation.

I'm doing 200 mg when I wake, 100 mg in the afternoon, and 200 mg before bed.
 
dj_diablo54 said:
Are you guys splinting up your dosages or taking the entire mg in one serving?

I was splitting, now I am doing it all in the AM. I thought I was feeling some warmth from the sodium usinate but now I am not so sure. I went from a moderately dirty diet to a clean diet with a reasonable level of carbs for a 240-243 pound guy, so I would attribute any fat loss to the diet change and not the sodium usinate.

So at this point, for me, 600mg a day is shit OR the product I got was shit. My T3 fun ended up putting me at about 2 inches lost in 4 weeks, not an insane amount compared to DNP or anything, but my diet was not ultra clean and my T3 doses were not that high at all.

I did not say an inch a day bro, that WOULD be insanity. :eek:
 
Mudge, why didn't you use higher doses of T3? You didn't ramp down either, right?
 
No reason to ramp down when a blood test showed that even 25mcg hit TSH badly. I had no rebound problems, but I wasn't on it for 4 months like some do either.

Why didn't I use more? I dunno, it was working fine. Next time I use it I may try more if it doesn't rip muscle off me.
 
Any links to threads discussing what T3 is? Tried foru search but didnt give me any results.
 
Deezus said:
Any links to threads discussing what T3 is? Tried foru search but didnt give me any results.

Thyroid hormone. There is also T2 and T4, T4 converts into T3 about 20-25% inside the body. Supposedly though this is on an as-needed basis, making it inefective once you are somewhat normal. It seems to work for people only during a shorter period, where T3 always does the job.
 
is it legal? any more information link you can pass on? Thank yuh.
 
Easy to obtain but its still medicinal.

800mg on the sodium usinate today, single dose, cookin a bit - sweaty, 8th day.

I will probably do 500x2 tomorow, still highly unimpressed. :shrug:
 
Just bought some usnic acid, I am thinking 200mg preworkout and 200mg before bed. How does that sound?
 
MonStar said:
Just bought some usnic acid, I am thinking 200mg preworkout and 200mg before bed. How does that sound?

I don't think taking it pre WO will have any added effect. I always just took 1/2 when I woke up and the other 1/2 before bed...
 
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