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i would have said $22 an hour but reduced to $17 for teens still living at home.

$22/hr would put someone in about the wealthiest 2.6% in the world. To most of the world the idea that making $45K a year is the minimum livable income is ridiculous. What we're seeing is really a function of how far liberalism has progressed in the U.S. Over time the equality that people fight for changes. Equality that people have won in the past is sometimes disregarded as new struggles arise. The equal opportunity that people once fought for is being replaced by forced equality. This is why people who currently think they are progressives tend to fight more for redistribution than actually leveling the playing field. These people's morality is often not based on logical structure derived from principles but is rather a function of the era they were brought up in. That's most people though, even conservatives whose morality is an outdated version.

" the DEMOCRATIC movement is the inheritance of the Christian movement. That its TEMPO, however, is much too slow and sleepy for the more impatient ones, for those who are sick and distracted by the herding-instinct, is indicated by the increasingly furious howling, and always less disguised teeth- gnashing of the anarchist dogs, who are now roving through the highways of European culture. Apparently in opposition to the peacefully industrious democrats and Revolution-ideologues, and still more so to the awkward philosophasters and fraternity- visionaries who call themselves Socialists and want a "free society," those are really at one with them all in their thorough and instinctive hostility to every form of society other than that of the AUTONOMOUS herd (to the extent even of repudiating the notions "master" and "servant"--ni dieu ni maitre, says a socialist formula); at one in their tenacious opposition to every special claim, every special right and privilege (this means ultimately opposition to EVERY right, for when all are equal, no one needs "rights" any longer); at one in their distrust of punitive justice (as though it were a violation of the weak, unfair to the NECESSARY consequences of all former society); but equally at one in their religion of sympathy, in their compassion for all that feels, lives, and suffers (down to the very animals, up even to "God"--the extravagance of "sympathy for God" belongs to a democratic age); altogether at one in the cry and impatience of their sympathy, in their deadly hatred of suffering generally, in their almost feminine incapacity for witnessing it or ALLOWING it; at one in their involuntary beglooming and heart-softening, under the spell of which Europe seems to be threatened with a new Buddhism; at one in their belief in the morality of MUTUAL sympathy, as though it were morality in itself, the climax, the ATTAINED climax of mankind, the sole hope of the future, the consolation of the present, the great discharge from all the obligations of the past; altogether at one in their belief in the community as the DELIVERER, in the herd, and therefore in "themselves." Nietzsche
 
"My conception of freedom. -- The value of a thing sometimes does not lie in that which one attains by it, but in what one pays for it -- what it costs us. I shall give an example. Liberal institutions cease to be liberal as soon as they are attained: later on, there are no worse and no more thorough injurers of freedom than liberal institutions. Their effects are known well enough: they undermine the will to power; they level mountain and valley, and call that morality; they make men small, cowardly, and hedonistic -- every time it is the herd animal that triumphs with them. Liberalism: in other words, herd-animalization.

These same institutions produce quite different effects while they are still being fought for; then they really promote freedom in a powerful way. On closer inspection it is war that produces these effects, the war for liberal institutions, which, as a war, permits illiberal instincts to continue. And war educates for freedom. For what is freedom? That one has the will to assume responsibility for oneself. That one maintains the distance which separates us. That one becomes more indifferent to difficulties, hardships, privation, even to life itself. That one is prepared to sacrifice human beings for one's cause, not excluding oneself. Freedom means that the manly instincts which delight in war and victory dominate over other instincts, for example, over those of "pleasure." The human being who has become free -- and how much more the spirit who has become free -- spits on the contemptible type of well-being dreamed of by shopkeepers, Christians, cows, females, Englishmen, and other democrats. The free man is a warrior." Nietzsche



 
i can appreciate what you're saying but around here your heating bill can be twice what your rent is for much of the year. if you look how they break things down in my county i find it reasonable. a $22 min wage would not provide a lot of luxuries and some families would still struggle.
 
where do you live? what town? i'll tell you exactly the split between city and education on property tax. i bet you are wrong.

go look it up Cook County Illinois, not telling you my town. Northwest suburbs
 
i would caution assuming all liberals are of a like mind. for instance it is assumed liberals are anti death penalty. i would mount more heads on pikes than vlad the impaler.
 
i can appreciate what you're saying but around here your heating bill can be twice what your rent is for much of the year. if you look how they break things down in my county i find it reasonable. a $22 min wage would not provide a lot of luxuries and some families would still struggle.

From a more objective worldview living in your county is probably a luxury. You're still pushing for a degree of equality brought about by what place and time you live in. That isn't necessarily bad itself but I believe it isn't actually based on a solid morality but rather instinct and exactly what Nietzsche was referring to.
 
$22/hr would put someone in about the wealthiest 2.6% in the world. To most of the world the idea that making $45K a year is the minimum livable income is ridiculous. What we're seeing is really a function of how far liberalism has progressed in the U.S. Over time the equality that people fight for changes. Equality that people have won in the past is sometimes disregarded as new struggles arise. The equal opportunity that people once fought for is being replaced by forced equality. This is why people who currently think they are progressives tend to fight more for redistribution than actually leveling the playing field. These people's morality is often not based on logical structure derived from principles but is rather a function of the era they were brought up in. That's most people though, even conservatives whose morality is an outdated version.

doesn't matter one bit what $45K is to the rest of the world it's what it gets you in the US that matters, as that's were you are paying for goods and services. and in the US $45K has the same purchasing power as $22.5K in 1990's dollars. 80% of the US population also lives in the metro area so living costs are more substantial than those that live in rural America.

$45k in a lot of major US cities isn't even enough to keep you feed and sheltered. try living on that in San Francisco, San Jose or LA or NYC, you would be living in a box in an alley and riding a 1960 Schwinn to work.

redistribution is not a "liberal thing" it's built into the tax structure of modern day economics in every single non-communist country in the world. taxation is redistribution and that has been a part of modern day economics for over 500 years. redistribution through taxation and wage increases via collective bargaining is how the middle class has been made in every single non-communist country in the world, there is no other method used in economics to date to accomplish that. there is no "natural" method of labor every gaining any advantage over capital it has to be done via policy.

that policy was all reversed in the late 70's in the US which is when the "middle-class" in the US started to shrink again. the effects of this reversal of policy and implementation of new policy that favors finance has taken decades to work it's way around the country with the culmination of that being the 2008 economic downturn. productivity gains the past decade have all gone to the top .1% in the US and there is nothing that is going to stop this from progressing as inequality not only from the bottom to the top greatly increases but from the middle to the top.

there is simply nothing sustainably about an economy that allows an extreme concentrations of wealth and it's why the US economy now relies on debt based consumption vs increases in real wages as was seen during Great Compression. and why real GDP growth in the US will be sluggish from now on.
 
lol I know what you're implying with that "like". let me clarify, some towns are more.

there are a lot a variables including corruption. nothing is nice and neat.


the what is the point of that coffee smiley and i know what you mean by that like comments make me think i should do some villainous laugh with each post. sometimes things are just what they appear to be. i don't doubt that some towns give a goodly portion to their schools but that is not the norm.
 
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doesn't matter one bit what $45K is to the rest of the world it's what it gets you in the US that matters, as that's were you are paying for goods and services.

You missed the point.
 
have you not gotten out of your house enough to know that a lot of skilled laborers here were living that dream before their jobs got sent to some slave country and now they are stuck with whatever scrap job they can get their hands on?

that entire manufacturing towns all across this country have basically shut down because of this? climbing towards 3 million manufacturing jobs lost to China?

that for breadwinner adults school is a luxury when the mortgage is due and the fridge is getting bare?

that not everyone lives with their parents and no one can plan for the company they spent 20 years climbing to the top in to sell out?


if this country is retarded enough to give our fucking jobs away, if our government is retarded enough to allow it, they need to make the jobs we have left pay a livable wage.

Yeah, but union wages are $40/hr for that mfg job, sitting in a chair pushing a button once every 2 minutes when a part comes down the line, and now the cost of making that widget is sky-fucking high! But then everybody screams about the rising cost of goods...so what's a company to do? I guess if comany can find out how to make that widget for 1/4 of the price, then the public will be appeased and still buy that widget.

Oh but now all the wal-mart shoppers, happy as hell to pay "always low prices" are bitching and complaining that the jobs are being shipped off to China and India, et.al.

So what the fuck do we do? We want liveable wages and jobs for everyone, but be sure and give us our low priced goods, by god!!

Deflation is coming!
 
one of this countries top exports nowadays is trash... and China has started rejecting that. pretty fucking sad.

we are a nation of debt loving consumers. Brainwashed to be so. So when people lose their jobs they are a paycheck or less away from bankrupt.
 
only single mothers and the elderly can collect welfare.

and maybe it's also because the US economy of 2013 is totally different then it was 20-30 years ago? wages are flat, prices of goods and services increase at double the rate of the CPI and more then real GDP growth and the dollar isn't worth shit. the shift to a large service sector means the majority of jobs are low paying, there are no "options" in reality. you can trade on low paying job for another.

do you know what other country in the OECD has a large population and a service sector based economy that can't support the entire population? Mexico...the future of the US is right to our southern border

Don't worry. If history is accurate (which it may not be due to interfering factors), the impending deflationary period looming over our heads will take care of all that (bolded part). You'll have cheap goods in large supply/short demand, and a strong dollar once again. Hope you don't have any debt though, and plenty of cash reserves.
 
The socialist ideologues will not be satisfied once minimum wage is increased and reduce welfare payments. We'd probably end up looking like France with a minimum wage of over $12/hr and 17% of the population on welfare. Let's drop the act that you guys give a shit about the taxpayers.

17% of the population on government assistance would be AWESOME! What an improvement!!! We are at just over 40% on government assistance right now.
 
Yeah, but union wages are $40/hr for that mfg job, sitting in a chair pushing a button once every 2 minutes when a part comes down the line, and now the cost of making that widget is sky-fucking high!

so says not one single economic report ever written.

why is there no price inflation in the high labor union density country's in the EU that have labor unity density rates from 40-60% vs the US at only 13%?

why have they also not off-shored labor "if" the cost of labor is causing price inflation? how can the Germans afford to pay their workers DOUBLE what US auto makers are?

because globalization is a scam and a "choice" that business owners make in order to decrease profits and stock share values at the sake of the long term health of an economy and society. and this is why the US has off-shored 6x the total number of manufacturing jobs as the EU15 combined, 50,000 US factories have relocated outside of the US. where those goods are then "imported" back into the US.

new auto union members are starting at $14/hr which are poverty wages for living in a major US metro area. the Club of Rome a global think tank compiled an economic report which I posted up on here months ago. They stated that in 2052 US auto workers will be making 1960's wages once adjusted for inflation. And they have also called for the total collapse of only the economy in one country in the world, the US.
 
so says not one single economic report ever written.

why is there no price inflation in the high labor union density country's in the EU that have labor unity density rates from 40-60% vs the US at only 13%?

why have they also not off-shored labor "if" the cost of labor is causing price inflation? how can the Germans afford to pay their workers DOUBLE what US auto makers are?

because globalization is a scam and a "choice" that business owners make in order to decrease profits and stock share values at the sake of the long term health of an economy and society. and this is why the US has off-shored 6x the total number of manufacturing jobs as the EU15 combined, 50,000 US factories have relocated outside of the US. where those goods are then "imported" back into the US.

new auto union members are starting at $14/hr which are poverty wages for living in a major US metro area. the Club of Rome a global think tank compiled an economic report which I posted up on here months ago. They stated that in 2052 US auto workers will be making 1960's wages once adjusted for inflation. And they have also called for the total collapse of only the economy in one country in the world, the US.

what should be the federal minimum wage be? give us a dollar amount. at least now I know you want more than 14 an hour.
 
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which is?

That most people in the U.S. making $45K would live more comfortably than most people in the world. I already addressed the point about location in post #218.
 
how can the Germans afford to pay their workers DOUBLE what US auto makers are?

new auto union members are starting at $14/hr which are poverty wages



In 2010, Germany PRODUCED more than 5.5 million automobiles; the U.S produced 2.7 million. At the same time, the average auto worker in Germany made $67.14 per hour in salary in benefits; the average one in the U.S. made $33.77 per hour.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederi...-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/




USA: The corporate tax rate is 40%. The marginal federal corporate income tax rate on the highest income bracket of corporations (currently USD 18,333,333 and above) is 35%. State and local governments may also impose income taxes ranging from 0% to 12%, the top marginal rates averaging approximately 7.5%. A corporation may deduct its state and local income tax expense when computing its federal taxable income, generally resulting in a net effective rate of approximately 40%. The effective rate may vary significantly depending on the locality in which a corporation conducts business. The United States also has a parallel alternative minimum tax (AMT) system, which is generally characterized by a lower tax rate (20%) but a broader tax base.

Germany: The corporate tax rate is 29.55%. The overall income tax rate for corporations includes corporate income tax at a rate of 15%, solidarity surcharge at a rate of 0.825% (5.5% of the corporate income tax), and local trade tax. The local trade tax generally varies between 7% and 17.15%, assuming a municipality multiplier (Hebesatz) ranging normally from 200% to 490% (the average multiplier for 2011 was 392%). The local trade tax is not deductible as a business expense.
http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/servi...esources/pages/corporate-tax-rates-table.aspx



maybe taxes and productivity plays a role?
 
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Why should the government have to help them out at all?

because their neighbors and the people crying the loudest in this thread simply won't.

"These people need help!" "Just not my help." "Someone needs to give these people more money!" "Someone besides me."
 
my son got a crispy chicken ranch today just before we went to get groceries. the woman that waited on us was late 40s maybe early 50's there was a big guy maybe early 30s and a couple women in their mid to late 20's and a big woman mid 30s in the front area of the mcdonalds we stopped at. people are full of shit that it's just teens in these jobs. fuck anyone that supports giving our manufacturing jobs to other countries then keeping the wages low on the leftovers people have to grapple for.

Where I live it's all pimply faced kids. The 2 or 3 adults are managers of some sort. I don't ask them all their titles, but next time I will see what I can find out for you. But then I am probably sheltered somewhat, with the area I live. Maybe I'll slum it sometime in the next few weeks, if I can find the time. Visit a few Mickey D's in tha hood and see what's happening there.
 
my son got a crispy chicken ranch today just before we went to get groceries. the woman that waited on us was late 40s maybe early 50's there was a big guy maybe early 30s and a couple women in their mid to late 20's and a big woman mid 30s in the front area of the mcdonalds we stopped at. people are full of shit that it's just teens in these jobs. fuck anyone that supports giving our manufacturing jobs to other countries then keeping the wages low on the leftovers people have to grapple for.

actually, reading your sig after reading your recent posts in here makes me chuckle a bit.

"you don't get what you wish for ~ you get what you work for"

I completely agree, by the way. :)
 
It's 4.1% on welfare. Welfare Statistics | Statistic Brain

Probably would have to look at the specifics for a meaningful comparison.

That's just one gov't assistance program. I know, I know. You said "welfare" but I'm saying that 40% of Americans are on some type of gov't assistance. That's just politicians giving themselves job security. We'll always vote for the guys that gave us the free shit!
 
because their neighbors and the people crying the loudest in this thread simply won't.

"These people need help!" "Just not my help." "Someone needs to give these people more money!" "Someone besides me."

this is simply not true. my vote to help the needy out is a vote how my taxes get used. what my government that I pay for does with my money. i am aware raising minimum wage would have me take extra coin from my pocket to buy goods as sometimes shopping American made products does. it is a sacrifice but not as huge as some think.
you need to look at how wealthy a lot of democrats are, barbara streisand for instance. we believe the right thing to do is have a safety net for our citizens who need it. if it's true only 4.1 percent of people are on welfare where did the idea the welfare class vote the democratic party in come from? strong men make sacrifice for the good of others.

i like neitzsche and his passionate, poetic way of thinking and writing but he is dead wrong in thinking that a liberal's compassion extends to ALL men. he is wrong in thinking a caring person cannot abide the suffering of any other being. for many of us our compassion for the victim and desire for peaceful streets make it common sense to simply eliminate the offender. we do not shirk away from blood justice.

it would be contrary to instinct for the peace seeking to gnaw at the throat of the lion but here it is. and i do not believe we have to go through any psychological song and dance to give ourselves permission to crush our oppressor. it's a folly to think there is a standard recipe for a liberal mind or there is not an alpha male inside a civil man. many republicans are softer hearted toward their fellow man than people suppose too... people are far more complicated than a peg hole.

the more you think about it the more you will see that fighting one another on these things keeps us from being a stronger group of citizens to fight our government abusing the power we give it. if we voted per issue and not our party, rapists and murderers would be hung in town squares... citizens do not want them released back into our towns but they are. politics is a shell game and we all are the victim.
 
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You said "welfare" but I'm saying that 40% of Americans are on some type of gov't assistance. That's just politicians giving themselves job security. We'll always vote for the guys that gave us the free shit!

actually it's not, it's seen in every single country in the OECD, but the % of GDP that goes to social protections in the US is the 3rd lowest in the OECD and the US has the highest percentage of low paid workers out of all the wealthy industrialized country's in the OECD. We also have the least protected work force in the OECD, which is why the US has off-shored 6x the number of manufacturing jobs as the EU15 combined. and we also have the most worthless currency.

various "cash" transfers are a function of economics, it's the main type of policy used to address the inequality of income. 25% of the US workforce is low paid an another 20% on top of that is under-employed.
 
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