No I don't. I eat organic everything. All my meats, grains and produce are all organic. Yeah I pay a lot for it but at least I know chemicals are not being put into my body.
Dont' forget the birth control! Thats your real danger right there!
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Is there such a thing as a healthy breakfast cereal???
- Thread starter Uthinkso
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Dont' forget the birth control! Thats your real danger right there!
Well it gets really old when Jodi argues with practically everything i say. I said i have soy milk with my oats and it turns into this. spare me all of it.
I'm so sure you do.
You say argument ... I see discussion. And actually you got snippy and she was very chilled about it.
If you gave some fact to your statements I wouldn't have a reason to discuss them would I?
For example this one. She's not taking pot shots at you so why get grumpy? Put some bourbon in the soy ... might help ya get past the
heres a fact
i have soy with my oats
what room is there for facts and discussion there.
i have soy with my oats
what room is there for facts and discussion there.
That is not a study....that is some article written by "who the hell knows."
I just want to see the studies that people are basing their stances on.
Not that I agree with Soy products.....
I just want to see how people have come to the conclusion that a + b = c
For two reasons:
1) people saying research proves this and that; when it proves nothing. it just suggests statistical evidence. unless you are looking at the statitics, then you can't draw a valid conclusion.
2) people are talking about how they have read this paper and this research. I am not talking about reading abstracts. Anyone can read the one sentence conclusion of an abstract and believe that it is telling you what it is telling you. In reality, you need to look at the entire study and read what really went down. Read about the population that was tested, how they were tested, dosages, how real world it is, etc.....that is how you read research. You have to be critical about it. Not just reading the abstracts.
So, I just want to see which pieces of research we are analyzing here.
I just want to see the studies that people are basing their stances on.
Not that I agree with Soy products.....
I just want to see how people have come to the conclusion that a + b = c
For two reasons:
1) people saying research proves this and that; when it proves nothing. it just suggests statistical evidence. unless you are looking at the statitics, then you can't draw a valid conclusion.
2) people are talking about how they have read this paper and this research. I am not talking about reading abstracts. Anyone can read the one sentence conclusion of an abstract and believe that it is telling you what it is telling you. In reality, you need to look at the entire study and read what really went down. Read about the population that was tested, how they were tested, dosages, how real world it is, etc.....that is how you read research. You have to be critical about it. Not just reading the abstracts.
So, I just want to see which pieces of research we are analyzing here.
The result of too much estrogen........For example this one. She's not taking pot shots at you so why get grumpy? Put some bourbon in the soy ... might help ya get past the
Hey it's true. That's one of the reasons women get so b****y during menses.
I don't see research in that thread.
Lets talk about evidence based practice here.
None. case closed. Enjoy your soy. Mix it with strawberries and icecream and have a soy shake. Bathe in it.
did you click Jodi's link? Ya gotta clink the link and read what showed up.
Clinical and Biological Activity of Soy Protein Powder Supplementation in Healthy Male Volunteers
Susan Goodin1,3,4, Francisco Shen2,6, Weichung J. Shih3, Nisha Dave5, Michael P. Kane3, Patrick Medina3, George H. Lambert2,3,6, Joseph Aisner1,3,4, Michael Gallo1,3,6 and Robert S. DiPaola1,3,4 [SIZE=-1] Departments of 1 Medicine and 2 Pediatrics, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, 3 The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, and 4 The Dean and Betty Gallo Prostate Cancer Center, New Brunswick, New Jersey; and 5 Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy, Pharmaceutical Industry Fellowship Institute, Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, and 6 Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute, Piscataway, New Jersey [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Requests for reprints: Susan Goodin, The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, 195 Little Albany Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-2681. Phone: 732-235-7472; Fax: 732-235-7493. E-mail: goodin@umdnj.edu[/SIZE]
Purpose: To determine if a commonly used soy protein supplement exhibits biological activity in vivo and in vitro, we evaluated an over-the-counter soy protein powder supplement using blood from healthy male volunteers and in an estrogen receptor in vitro assay.
Subjects and Methods: We recruited healthy male volunteers 18 years of age or older that were in good health. Treatment consisted of consuming two scoops (56 g) of pure soy protein powder (Puritan's Pride, Oakdale, NY) daily for 28 days. Serum testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were collected on days ???7, 0, 14, and 28 of therapy, and day 42. A reporter estrogen receptor (ER) assay was used to determine the effect on ER-?? and ER-
Results: Twelve subjects were enrolled with a mean age of 32.25 years (range 25 to 47). Serum testosterone decreased 19%(±22%) during the 4-week use of soy protein powder (P = 0.021) and increased within 2 weeks after we discontinued soy protein powder. Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.20). Soy protein powder was found to induce agonist activity to ER-?? using a reporter estrogen receptor assay in yeast.
Conclusion: Soy protein powder decreases serum testosterone levels in healthy men and acts as an ER-?? agonist; the significance of this biological effect with respect to cancer prevention needs further study. (Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2007;16(4):829???33)
Did you read this link? You have to remember, I don't have the same resources as you.
Effects of Soy on Health Outcomes, Summary of Evidence Report/Technology Assessment, No. 126
Birth Control is easier on your body than a pregnancy...
sorry, I missed that link. I didn't see it posted.
reading it now.
Okay, thanks BC. But here is a perfect example. If we are having an evidenced based discussion, I am going to throw this study out for 2 reasons:
a) Its subjects are male. Effects differ on things between male and female. This discussion at the moment is between females.
b) I am going to throw it out because, as with most soy research, the amount of soy that is given to the subjects is a high amount. 56g were given to subject. That is a lot more than 20-25g of soy milk a day. It is double infact. So, dosage is important.
Another strange thing about that study is that it starts by saying the subjects were males aged 18. then in the results section it says the mean age was 32.5 years of age (ranging 25-47)
So then your conclusions lead one think that this is a bogus study ...
.Possibly anyway ... a bogus study.
Biological effects of a diet of soy protein rich in isoflavones on the menstrual cycle of premenopausal women
AM. J. CLIN. NUTR. (USA), 1994, 60/3 (333-340)
The influence of a diet containing soy protein on the hormonal status and regulation of the menstrual cycle was examined in six premenopausal women with regular ovulatory cycles. Soy protein (60 g containing 45 mg isoflavones) given daily for 1 mo significantly (P < 0.01) increased follicular phase length and/or delayed menstruation. Midcycle surges of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone were significantly suppressed during dietary intervention with soy protein. Plasma estradiol concentrations increased in the follicular phase and cholesterol concentrations decreased 9.6%. Similar responses occur with tamoxifen, an antiestrogen undergoing clinical trial as a prophylactic agent in women at high risk for breast cancer. These effects are presumed to be due to nonsteroidal estrogens of the isoflavone class, which behave as partial estrogen agonists/antagonists. The responses to soy protein are potentially beneficial with respect to risk factors for breast cancer and may in part explain the low incidence of breast cancer and its correlation with a high soy intake in Japanese and Chinese women.
AM. J. CLIN. NUTR. (USA), 1994, 60/3 (333-340)
The influence of a diet containing soy protein on the hormonal status and regulation of the menstrual cycle was examined in six premenopausal women with regular ovulatory cycles. Soy protein (60 g containing 45 mg isoflavones) given daily for 1 mo significantly (P < 0.01) increased follicular phase length and/or delayed menstruation. Midcycle surges of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone were significantly suppressed during dietary intervention with soy protein. Plasma estradiol concentrations increased in the follicular phase and cholesterol concentrations decreased 9.6%. Similar responses occur with tamoxifen, an antiestrogen undergoing clinical trial as a prophylactic agent in women at high risk for breast cancer. These effects are presumed to be due to nonsteroidal estrogens of the isoflavone class, which behave as partial estrogen agonists/antagonists. The responses to soy protein are potentially beneficial with respect to risk factors for breast cancer and may in part explain the low incidence of breast cancer and its correlation with a high soy intake in Japanese and Chinese women.
Well, I won't ever touch Soy ever again.
dontstop, you remind of that douchebag that was booted off hell's kitchen this week. Shut up and stop arguing with jodi.
So then your conclusions lead one think that this is a bogus study ...
Possibly anyway ... a bogus study.
Nope, not bogus.....just not exactly signifigant to the population we are talking about.
again, look at the dosage....60g a day!! That is huge! If a woman eats 120g of protein per day, that means 50% of it is soy protein.
Most of the research is done on high dosages of soy. So clearly.....high dosages of soy are not beneficial. But, if someone is consuming something as little as 20-25g a day....what are the differences? What would the outcome be? These are questions that have not been answered by research. But, we are still to quick to throw the baby out with the bath water. Like the whole static stretching before we workout debate. The research may not be totally specific to what we would do in real life. While the research is suggesting something, it may not be suggesting in a statistical way that is significant to how others are applying things in real life.
All I am saying is if you are going to read research, you need to be more critical. You need to look at the statistics and break things down. Things that happen in a lab (in a controlled environment) may be difficult to re-create in real life (and vice versa).
What in this study scares you about soy?
First of all, this is a meta-analysis. While they are interesting because they look at a whole bunch of research which fits the inclusive criteria. Each piece of research contributes a small piece of data to the overall analysis. The statistics are analized using effect size, with converts the results from the studies used into a common metric so that the researchers can draw comparisons. The problem with this is that the meta analysis does not differentiate between the quality of the studies used and it may (and usually does) combine unlike studies with way too much variability (think comparing apples and oranges except on a greater scale....now we may be comparing apples, oranges, bananas, kiwi, strawberries, etc.....they are all fruits and that makes them similiar, but they are all very different). So automatically, there are some problems with putting stock in a meta analysis.
Now, reviewing this study, and all the things they are looking at, there is really nothing that is significant in the study.....they don't have conclusive evidence on much...Look at some of the things in the study:
Cardiovascular endpoints
Menopausal Symptoms
Endocrine Function
so the difference between those seeing the decrease in test levels and those not seeing the decrease was not a significant enough difference to suggest it being potentially harmful.
again, no statistical significance in the results.
Cancer and Tumor-Related Biomarkers
Bone Endpoints
Kidney Function, Neurocognitive Function, and Glucose Metabolism
Adverse Events
This was the only area where things where significant. Showing that the biggest adverse event was GI in nature. The dosages ranged from 20-60g/day with no clear relationship between the dose ingested and the adverse events. But, if you are having GI distress, you would simply stop taking eating the foods containing soy anyway.
the only suspect thing in this section was this:
So, we can't take that and apply it to the entire population as that is specific to a certaion population of women.
Limitations
Aside from being uncertain, the researchers went on to say that the quality of a little over half the studies (55%) was poor....again, a problem with a meta analysis...This part is just awful:
Another problem with this being a meta analysis:
again....apples, oranges, bananas, strawberries, kiwi, grapefruit, etc..
Conclusions
Now, I am not defending soy.
Do I think it is garbage....yes. I don't think soy is a great protein source. As some of the research is suggesting, it appears to have negative side effects in high doses. But, if someone is getting 20g of soy a day (or every other day) or whatever, I don't think it will kill them (at least research never looked at it).
Do I think it is garbage....yes. I don't think soy is a great protein source. As some of the research is suggesting, it appears to have negative side effects in high doses. But, if someone is getting 20g of soy a day (or every other day) or whatever, I don't think it will kill them (at least research never looked at it).
I like rice milk. ; )
here is one from the american journal of clinical nutrition.
it is a double-blind, placebo-controlled study (subjects either receiving soy or a casein placebo).
The subjects were post-menopausal (50 woman in total) and the subjects had not used a say product for 3 months or taken estrogen therapy for 12months.
the researchers results were that:
The high intake was to the tune of 40g per day.
the study is here
Does this prove anything? No, but it is suggesting that in this situation, under the circumstances of the study, this is what they found to happen.
it is a double-blind, placebo-controlled study (subjects either receiving soy or a casein placebo).
The subjects were post-menopausal (50 woman in total) and the subjects had not used a say product for 3 months or taken estrogen therapy for 12months.
the researchers results were that:
The high intake was to the tune of 40g per day.
the study is here
Does this prove anything? No, but it is suggesting that in this situation, under the circumstances of the study, this is what they found to happen.
i never had it. Does it taste like regular milk?
i had chocolate almond milk....now that was good shit!
No. It's better than soy in taste. To me milk is more bland than both. You don't have a lot of choices like soy though.
Even though we are talking about girls, here is a study i would be interested in seeing (I don't have a subscription to the AJCN). If anyone does have a subscription, it would be great if you could email me the pdf. This is very recent and it is a study on men and has to do with post workout nutrition and comparing soy to skim milk (not really specific to our current discussion at all):
Wilkinson S et. al., Consumption of fluid skim milk promotes greater muscle protein accretion after resistance exercise than does consumption of an isonitrogenous and isoenergetic soy-protein beverage. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr;85(4):1031-40. Links
BACKGROUND: Resistance exercise leads to net muscle protein accretion through a synergistic interaction of exercise and feeding. Proteins from different sources may differ in their ability to support muscle protein accretion because of different patterns of postprandial hyperaminoacidemia. OBJECTIVE: We examined the effect of consuming isonitrogenous, isoenergetic, and macronutrient-matched soy or milk beverages (18 g protein, 750 kJ) on protein kinetics and net muscle protein balance after resistance exercise in healthy young men. Our hypothesis was that soy ingestion would result in larger but transient hyperaminoacidemia compared with milk and that milk would promote a greater net balance because of lower but prolonged hyperaminoacidemia. DESIGN: Arterial-venous amino acid balance and muscle fractional synthesis rates were measured in young men who consumed fluid milk or a soy-protein beverage in a crossover design after a bout of resistance exercise. RESULTS: Ingestion of both soy and milk resulted in a positive net protein balance. Analysis of area under the net balance curves indicated an overall greater net balance after milk ingestion (P < 0.05). The fractional synthesis rate in muscle was also greater after milk consumption (0.10 +/- 0.01%/h) than after soy consumption (0.07 +/- 0.01%/h; P = 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Milk-based proteins promote muscle protein accretion to a greater extent than do soy-based proteins when consumed after resistance exercise. The consumption of either milk or soy protein with resistance training promotes muscle mass maintenance and gains, but chronic consumption of milk proteins after resistance exercise likely supports a more rapid lean mass accrual.
Wilkinson S et. al., Consumption of fluid skim milk promotes greater muscle protein accretion after resistance exercise than does consumption of an isonitrogenous and isoenergetic soy-protein beverage. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr;85(4):1031-40. Links
BACKGROUND: Resistance exercise leads to net muscle protein accretion through a synergistic interaction of exercise and feeding. Proteins from different sources may differ in their ability to support muscle protein accretion because of different patterns of postprandial hyperaminoacidemia. OBJECTIVE: We examined the effect of consuming isonitrogenous, isoenergetic, and macronutrient-matched soy or milk beverages (18 g protein, 750 kJ) on protein kinetics and net muscle protein balance after resistance exercise in healthy young men. Our hypothesis was that soy ingestion would result in larger but transient hyperaminoacidemia compared with milk and that milk would promote a greater net balance because of lower but prolonged hyperaminoacidemia. DESIGN: Arterial-venous amino acid balance and muscle fractional synthesis rates were measured in young men who consumed fluid milk or a soy-protein beverage in a crossover design after a bout of resistance exercise. RESULTS: Ingestion of both soy and milk resulted in a positive net protein balance. Analysis of area under the net balance curves indicated an overall greater net balance after milk ingestion (P < 0.05). The fractional synthesis rate in muscle was also greater after milk consumption (0.10 +/- 0.01%/h) than after soy consumption (0.07 +/- 0.01%/h; P = 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Milk-based proteins promote muscle protein accretion to a greater extent than do soy-based proteins when consumed after resistance exercise. The consumption of either milk or soy protein with resistance training promotes muscle mass maintenance and gains, but chronic consumption of milk proteins after resistance exercise likely supports a more rapid lean mass accrual.
Milk makes me fart VERY loudly. They don't smell bad at all, unlike like my silent egg farts. The rumbles in my tumbly are louder than my egg farts in fact. Milk doesn't like me like it did when I was little. Soy makes me think P-funk is cute and makes me listen Elton John music.
I like rice milk.
I like rice milk.
The studies prove enough to me that I don't think pre-menopausal women should be using soy. Due to today's poor food qualities and environmental toxins, many women, and some men for that matter, are estrogen dominant. The last thing an estrogen dominant person needs is soy and even at the slightest amount, it's a risk for someone in this situation. Now take a women on birth control.........do you really think adding in a substance that possibly increases estrogen is a good thing?
