Is this a good bulking routine ?

[skinnyguy1986]

Id be less concerned with overtraining and more concerned with outright shoulder injury with that amount of pushing volume.

But whatever, you asked our advice, received it, and chose not to follow it. Theres little more we can do here.

Good luck to you. You obviously know what you're talking about

well i didn't ignore any advice, i consider everything that you and AKIRA said, at the same time i know that everyone responds differently to training and theres no harm in trying something new and seeing how it goes. i've never tried an intense routine and thats what draws me to it, lowering the amount of sets will bring me back to some of my previous workouts.

 

[Gazhole]

So change other things. Change split, change movements, change rep ranges, rest intervals, try some periodization...

There are many ways you can get a fresh take on things, those things above arent even half of what you can change.

The point is that various people have told you that the program you posted was bad for more than one reason, and the amount of volume you are doing is potentially dangerous or at best superfluous.

Whats the point of taking advice onboard if you're not going to do anything with it? Good advice is good for a reason. If your program was good, there would be no advice to take onboard or follow.

Ultimately its your choice, but the members here actually want to see other people succeed as much as possible.

 

[lurker1]

If I can chime in once again...there's nothing wrong with the workout itself. If he's going to use a template like that, he will need to tweak it to suit his abilitites and needs. 10 sets for back/chest may be excessive for him. However, he can certainly just pick one exercise and do 5-6 sets and still get results since he is doing it twice a week. That is also the reason there isn't much more direct shoulder work. Now, as far as shoulder injury, he will to balance his pulling with pushing, meaning rows and high pulls will be a part of the back exercises.

The template is one that I had great success with. I have been lifting for many years and found this type of split to be superior to other splits. It's simple and efficient.

 

[sakbar]

Regarding Lurker1's training split

Not enough frequency. I suggest a 4 day upper/lower split. Something like:

Monday-upper-heavy
Chest-2 movements 5x5 or 8x3
Back-2 movements 5x5 or 8x3
Shoulders/Traps-1 movement 5x5 or 4x6
Bis/Tris- 1 movement 5x5 or 3x8

Tuesday-lower-heavy
Quads-2 movements 8x3
Hams/Pos. chain-2 movements 8x3 or 5x5
Calves-1/2 movements 5x10-12

Wednesday
Off

Thursday-upper-moderate
Chest-2 @ 4x6 or 3x8
Back-2 @ 4x6 or 3x8
Shoulder/Traps-1 @ 3x8
Bis/Tris-1 @ 3x8

Friday-lower-moderate
Quad dominant-2 @ 4x6 or 3x8
Hip dominant-2 @ 4x6 or 3x8
Calves-1 @ 5x12-15

Hi Lurker1,

How much time would you take to wrap up each workout mentioned above?

Presently I am on a following four-day split:
Monday: Shoulders and Forearms
Tuesday: Legs
Wednesdays: Off
Thursdays: Back and Biceps
Fridays: Chest and Triceps

With Lurker1's split, I'd be training each body part twice a week but with the following differences:
1. Much, much lesser work on biceps and triceps
2. Upper day would be around 30 sets(!) as against the lower days, which go 21 sets and which is the norm for me. Also, can one effectively squeeze in all compounds - bench press, deadlifts, military press - in one workout?
3. No direct forearm work
4. Each major body part gets trained twice per week

Please advice,
SakBar

 

[AKIRA]

Holy Shit

 

[AKIRA]

If I can chime in once again...there's nothing wrong with the workout itself. If he's going to use a template like that, he will need to tweak it to suit his abilitites and needs. 10 sets for back/chest may be excessive for him. However, he can certainly just pick one exercise and do 5-6 sets and still get results since he is doing it twice a week. That is also the reason there isn't much more direct shoulder work. Now, as far as shoulder injury, he will to balance his pulling with pushing, meaning rows and high pulls will be a part of the back exercises.

The template is one that I had great success with. I have been lifting for many years and found this type of split to be superior to other splits. It's simple and efficient.

Soooo which one do you recommend now? Cuz in the first template you offered him, you gave a +- 39 set upper day...then hes got ANOTHER upper in the same week.

 

[lurker1]

Soooo which one do you recommend now? Cuz in the first template you offered him, you gave a +- 39 set upper day...then hes got ANOTHER upper in the same week.

Honestly that's up to him to figure out. But, if this was my first time with a routine like this, I'd go with one exercise for back and chest.

I know that it seems like a lot of sets, but if you look around, you'll see people doing way more than ten sets on a body part. That is too much. But 35-40 sets total for an upper body routine is not unrealistic. And like I said, it can be adjusted to suit one's ability and experience. It is not concrete.

 

[lurker1]

Soooo which one do you recommend now? Cuz in the first template you offered him, you gave a +- 39 set upper day...then hes got ANOTHER upper in the same week.

Something I forgot to point out is that though he'll hit upper twice, one time will be heavy, the other time is to be lighter and less intense. It is stretch the muscles and get blood flowing through them which will alleviate DOMS (if there is any) and provide more stimulus for growth.

 

[lurker1]

Hi Lurker1,

How much time would you take to wrap up each workout mentioned above?

Presently I am on a following four-day split:
Monday: Shoulders and Forearms
Tuesday: Legs
Wednesdays: Off
Thursdays: Back and Biceps
Fridays: Chest and Triceps

With Lurker1's split, I'd be training each body part twice a week but with the following differences:
1. Much, much lesser work on biceps and triceps
2. Upper day would be around 30 sets(!) as against the lower days, which go 21 sets and which is the norm for me. Also, can one effectively squeeze in all compounds - bench press, deadlifts, military press - in one workout?
3. No direct forearm work
4. Each major body part gets trained twice per week

Please advice,
SakBar

I can always get my workout done within an hour.

Yes, on can effectively squeeze in all compunds in a workout. Now, you will not be able to give each exercise the greatest intensity, so you'd want to focus on one that you're going to give your all and the others use as accessory lifts.

The thing about the high number of upper sets is that you must train your back and chest equally. If you do 2 chest exercises, it is wise and recommended to do two for back. Now since you are already doing so much work, your shoulders and arms are getting a pretty good workout as it is, so you don't need to focus on them so much. Just a couple exercises to fully stimulate them is sufficient.

And again, one of the workouts is to be a lighter, recovery type. You are to not go hard and heavy on both days. You can also swap which days you want to be the heavy ones and the light ones. You could use Mon and Tue as the heavy, or Mon and Fri, or Thurs and Fri, or Tues and Thurs..it allows for personal varibales that other splits don't.

 

[juggernaut]

why is he concentrating on a lot of assistance work? I built myself using the big three and adding in military presses and 1 set of curls and 1 set of close grip benches. Compounds put the mass on, not a ton of exercises! Thats just spinning the wheels.

 

[sakbar]

Just the compounds?

I built myself using the big three and adding in military presses and 1 set of curls and 1 set of close grip benches. Compounds put the mass on, not a ton of exercises! Thats just spinning the wheels.

Agreed juggernaut, but then how frequently do you do these six exercises per week? And what is the intensity level in each session? After a couple of months won't the same routine day in and day out begin to get monotonous?

 

[juggernaut]

Agreed juggernaut, but then how frequently do you do these six exercises per week? And what is the intensity level in each session? After a couple of months won't the same routine day in and day out begin to get monotonous?

Well, the very first exercise is always the compound move. My reps are 5-8. I change my assistance exercises every month. I dont do the same routine every month. I've grown exponentially in the past 2 years because I believe in periodization.

 

[AKIRA]

Then you do 6 other exercises that are mostly compounds.

The "Big Three" arent the only compounds out there.

Plus if it gets "monotonous" you can always add different forms of periodization. Fuck with tempos. Fuck with rests. Its limitless!

 

[AKIRA]

Oh great.

That response was supposed to come after sakbar's.

<~Cheap ass's way of quoting sometimes.

 

[cheesegrater]

Not enough frequency. I suggest a 4 day upper/lower split. Something like:

Monday-upper-heavy
Chest-2 movements 5x5 or 8x3
Back-2 movements 5x5 or 8x3
Shoulders/Traps-1 movement 5x5 or 4x6
Bis/Tris- 1 movement 5x5 or 3x8

Tuesday-lower-heavy
Quads-2 movements 8x3
Hams/Pos. chain-2 movements 8x3 or 5x5
Calves-1/2 movements 5x10-12

Wednesday
Off

Thursday-upper-moderate
Chest-2 @ 4x6 or 3x8
Back-2 @ 4x6 or 3x8
Shoulder/Traps-1 @ 3x8
Bis/Tris-1 @ 3x8

Friday-lower-moderate
Quad dominant-2 @ 4x6 or 3x8
Hip dominant-2 @ 4x6 or 3x8
Calves-1 @ 5x12-15

Sat and Sun-off

You'll find this will work much better than just hitting a group once a week. Now you will have to do your homework and get adequate nutrition and rest, but adopting a routine more like what I posted will prove to be more rewarding and more fun. Enjoy.

in the quad dominant/ hip dominant...where do squats fall into? and what would be other exercises for hip dominant or quad dominant?

 

[skinnyguy1986]

in the quad dominant/ hip dominant...where do squats fall into? and what would be other exercises for hip dominant or quad dominant?

squats are Quad Dominant

heres my updated routine... let me know if there are any issues with the exercises

Routine

Monday-heavy Upper body

Flat Barbell Bench Press 5x5
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 5X5
Pullups 5x5
Barbell Rows 5X5
Dumbbell Shoulder Press 5X5
Overhead Dumbbell Extension 5X5
Preacher Curl 5X5

Tuesday Heavy Lower body

Quads-2 movements 8x3
Squats 5X5
Leg Press : 5X5
Leg extension 5X5
Stiff Legged Deadlifts 5X5
Hamstring Curls 5X5
Calve Raises 5x10-12

Wednesday
Off

Thursday Moderate Upper body

barbell Bench Press 3x8
Incline Dumbbell Press 3x8
Pullups 3x8
Dumbbell Rows 3X8
Shrugs 3X8
Tricep Extension 3X8
Bicep Curl 3X8

Friday-lower-moderate

Squats 4X8
Deadlifts 4X8
Leg extensions :4X8
Ham curl : 4X8
Calve Raises 5X12

Sat (Abs)

 

[lurker1]

I like it. That is very similar to what I've done in the past. Just remember that if something isn't working, change it. If you find doing two exercises a 5x5 is too much, drop the second exercise entirely or reduce the sets to 2-3.

 

[juggernaut]

squats are Quad Dominant

heres my updated routine... let me know if there are any issues with the exercises

Routine

Monday-heavy Upper body

Flat Barbell Bench Press 5x5
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 5X5
Pullups 5x5
Barbell Rows 5X5
Dumbbell Shoulder Press 5X5
Overhead Dumbbell Extension 5X5
Preacher Curl 5X5

Tuesday Heavy Lower body

Quads-2 movements 8x3
Squats 5X5
Leg Press : 5X5
Leg extension 5X5
Stiff Legged Deadlifts 5X5
Hamstring Curls 5X5
Calve Raises 5x10-12

Wednesday
Off

Thursday Moderate Upper body

barbell Bench Press 3x8
Incline Dumbbell Press 3x8
Pullups 3x8
Dumbbell Rows 3X8
Shrugs 3X8
Tricep Extension 3X8
Bicep Curl 3X8

Friday-lower-moderate

Squats 4X8
Deadlifts 4X8
Leg extensions :4X8
Ham curl : 4X8
Calve Raises 5X12

Sat (Abs)

I saw a similar routine like this one on t-nation. I was thinking of giving it a shot. Has some merit to it, but I would change a couple of things. Like substitute tricep ext. with close grip bench press, Start off with incline bench press instead of flat bench press, regular barbell curls for preacher curls, add in barbell rows instead of dumbbell rows, reduce the arm work, lower the reps on the calf work and go heavier, deads twice weekly? Youre going to need more than a rest day with all of the shit you'll be doing. Abs on Saturday is wasteful.

 

[skinnyguy1986]

I saw a similar routine like this one on t-nation. I was thinking of giving it a shot. Has some merit to it, but I would change a couple of things. Like substitute tricep ext. with close grip bench press, Start off with incline bench press instead of flat bench press, regular barbell curls for preacher curls, add in barbell rows instead of dumbbell rows, reduce the arm work, lower the reps on the calf work and go heavier, deads twice weekly? Youre going to need more than a rest day with all of the shit you'll be doing. Abs on Saturday is wasteful.

i like the close grip bench press idea, and the preacher curl, i have some questions regarding doing the incline press first why is that?? as for deadlifts im kinda used to stiff legged from my experience its not as bad as regular deadlifts but if its too hectic i will drop 1 of them, but what do you suggest for abs when do i train them ?

 

[AKIRA]

i like the close grip bench press idea, and the preacher curl, i have some questions regarding doing the incline press first why is that?? as for deadlifts im kinda used to stiff legged from my experience its not as bad as regular deadlifts but if its too hectic i will drop 1 of them, but what do you suggest for abs when do i train them ?

What does that mean? Are you saying youre more comfortable with one over the other?

 

[skinnyguy1986]

What does that mean? Are you saying youre more comfortable with one over the other?

ya, im more used to stiff legged as i did them more, i hate deadlifts because the bar keeps on hitting my knees.

 

[juggernaut]

i like the close grip bench press idea, and the preacher curl, i have some questions regarding doing the incline press first why is that?? as for deadlifts im kinda used to stiff legged from my experience its not as bad as regular deadlifts but if its too hectic i will drop 1 of them, but what do you suggest for abs when do i train them ?

I'm not saying to drop regular deads. It looked like you were doing the same thing twice a week as in deadlifts; Even though they are similiar moves, they also stress different parts of the body. As for the incline bench press, I prefer it because IMHO you want that upper area to appear "lifted". That's the center of attention when a person looks at you. Whenever I train a client, I always start them out with a variation of the incline bench press, be it dumbell or barbell. I prefer dumbbells, overall lately.

 

[juggernaut]

ya, im more used to stiff legged as i did them more, i hate deadlifts because the bar keeps on hitting my knees.

that means you are using your back too much. You sway. You need to re-emphasize your form.

Use this video as a good measure for regular deads.
Barbell Deadlift

Use this for the stiff legged deadlift.
Barbell Stiff Leg Deadlift

Big difference.

 

[lurker1]

i like the close grip bench press idea, and the preacher curl, i have some questions regarding doing the incline press first why is that?? as for deadlifts im kinda used to stiff legged from my experience its not as bad as regular deadlifts but if its too hectic i will drop 1 of them, but what do you suggest for abs when do i train them ?

Rotate which form of bench press you do first. There is no need to always put one in front of the other.

As far as doing deads twice a week, just make sure that one of the days you do them is recovery/accessory work. I'm against hard and heavy deads twice in one week.

 

[sakbar]

Each bodypart 2 times per week?

When I started training a few months ago, I followed the Basic Training Split suggested by Arnold Schwarzenegger in his Encyclopedia, which is:

• Day 1: Chest and Back
• Day 2: Legs
• Day 3: Shoulders and Arms
• Day 4 through 6: Cycle Repeats
• Day 7: Rest

Folks at the gym scoffed, saying that I am largely over training. Most of the articles and magazines I read suggested that one should train each body part no more than once each week - so I shifted to a four-day split, training each body part once a week.

Now with lurker1's training program I seem to have come in a circle, except that there are more rest days included with this program.

Before I plunge, I'd like your feedback:
I have been regularly working out for about eight months now. Will training body parts twice a week, amount to overtraining?
I do intend to incorporate all that I have read here - periodization, alternate between volume and intensity, etc.

Please let me know!

 

[juggernaut]

I have had GREAT success with 2x per week training. Not like that regimen, but similar. I like training "near overtraining". It keeps me on my toes, and I get two weeks of decompression at the end of the cycle. Plus, the growth is damn near miraculous.

 

[skinnyguy1986]

I have had GREAT success with 2x per week training. Not like that regimen, but similar. I like training "near overtraining". It keeps me on my toes, and I get two weeks of decompression at the end of the cycle. Plus, the growth is damn near miraculous.

just per week how much weight are you expected to gain during a bulking cycle, on avg ?

 

[juggernaut]

I've never been one to bulk in the typical sense of the word. I gain weight very easily just by manipulating my cardio. When I attempted to increase my food intake, it's always been a pain in the ass to lose it for a contest.
That being said, I would say that a realistic gain per week would be .5 to a 2 lb gain. Everything else will be just fat. And that's being generous.

 

[lurker1]

When I started training a few months ago, I followed the Basic Training Split suggested by Arnold Schwarzenegger in his Encyclopedia, which is:

• Day 1: Chest and Back
• Day 2: Legs
• Day 3: Shoulders and Arms
• Day 4 through 6: Cycle Repeats
• Day 7: Rest

Folks at the gym scoffed, saying that I am largely over training. Most of the articles and magazines I read suggested that one should train each body part no more than once each week - so I shifted to a four-day split, training each body part once a week.

Now with lurker1's training program I seem to have come in a circle, except that there are more rest days included with this program.

Before I plunge, I'd like your feedback:
I have been regularly working out for about eight months now. Will training body parts twice a week, amount to overtraining?
I do intend to incorporate all that I have read here - periodization, alternate between volume and intensity, etc.

Please let me know!

Well, if you're eating correctly and getting optimal rest, no you shouldn't be overtraining. Of course the thing is to not use the same load and intensity as the workout before. Frequency really is key to getting stronger and bigger, especially for those not on anabolics. This type of workout makes your body adapt to the work involved and will envoke change in your physique quicker than hitting a muscle once a week.

 

[lurker1]

I've never been one to bulk in the typical sense of the word. I gain weight very easily just by manipulating my cardio. When I attempted to increase my food intake, it's always been a pain in the ass to lose it for a contest.
That being said, I would say that a realistic gain per week would be .5 to a 2 lb gain. Everything else will be just fat. And that's being generous.

I agree. Naturally, one cannot expect to put on more than this in a week. Now, of course if one is on gear, then that will certainly not be the case.