Local high schools want to have their graduation in a church - UPDATED 6/4 post 84

[bio-chem]

In my home country the Taiping rebellion killed as many people as the Cultural Revolution so it is about 50/50 on religion vs non -religion ( although athiestic governments don't fight for the sake of athiesm, they fight on political principles).

Buddists are the only religious sect that have not fought wars based on religious doctrine. Buddist leaders have fought wars for land, resources etc, just like non- buddist leaders, but never on religious principles since buddism is generally accepting of different beliefs ( Jesus, Mohammed, Joseph smith are all avatars). Don't ignore the religious beliefs ( mostly buddism) of the giant, Red Dragon that is breathing down America's neck as it begins it climb to superpowerdom.

Pol Pot is a poor example, America played a vital role in his uprising and supported him intially, even lobbying for his inclusion into UN, they supported him in hopes he would defile and weaken the "communist" north vietnamese regime.The carpet bombings further steered disenchanted cambodians from the US.

pol pot is an excellent example. I'm not excusing anything the US has done in our past. what I am saying is look at the outcome of societies that reject religion. The Khmer Rouge did just that. for the purposes of this debate the example is one of the best I can think of

 

[DOMS]

Pol Pot /kmer rouge is a poor example, America played a vital role in his uprising and supported him intially.

Do you have a credible link to back this up?

 

[bio-chem]

Do you have a credible link to back this up?

LOL. other than a story related to her by her father? you run us dangerously close to getting off topic DOMS. but I applaud your effort anyways

 

[bandaidwoman]

pol pot is an excellent example. I'm not excusing anything the US has done in our past. what I am saying is look at the outcome of societies that reject religion. The Khmer Rouge did just that. for the purposes of this debate the example is one of the best I can think of

fair enough

 

[bandaidwoman]

Do you have a credible link to back this up?

just my history books in Malaysia and when I lived in Thailand and Japan, all three countries. Why don't you just google polpot Nixon, Lyndon Johnson, CIA etc. I laugh that americans have no idea their history has been censored. And please, don't tell me asian historians know jack shit about their history.

 

[maniclion]

and mine is based upon the fact I call into at least 3 hospitals daily across the united states every business day over the last 2 years.

like i said despite your apparent credentials im constantly surprised by the opinions you express. you are definitely in the minority when it comes to professional health care providers opinions

The only church hospital in my area I can think of is St. Francis where I go to see my Jewish neurologist.....Shriners is the local childrens hospital, the rest are Straub, Kaiser, Queens, Kapiolani, Castle....

 

[DOMS]

just my history books in Malaysia and when I lived in Thailand and Japan, all three countries. Why don't you just google polpot Nixon, Lyndon Johnson, CIA etc. I laugh that americans have no idea their history has been censored. And please, don't tell me asian historians know jack shit about their history.

And I laugh because your a sanctimonious third-worlder who's benefiting (leaching?) on the very people you put down and actually think you, and the third-world that spawned you, is somehow better.

I've searched the web, and most of what I've find is unsubstantiated crackpot theories that are being repeated, often verbatim. The only thing close to creditble is the US destabilized the region, which we did, but not in an effort to help Pol Pot. He simply took advantage of it.

But of course, you being the non-American have the "truth", while we poor simple Americans don't.

It's not that Asians don't know shit, it's just that they're no better than anyone else.

I'll also point out that you failed to provide a credible link.

 

[bandaidwoman]

And I luagh because your a sanctimonious third-worlder who's benefiting (leaching?) on the very people and society you put down.

I've searched the web, and most of what I've find is unsubstantiated crackpot theories that are being repeated, often verbatim. The only thing close to creditble is the US destabilized the region, which we did, but not in an effort to help Pol Pot. He simply took advantage of it.

But of course, you being the non-American have the "truth", while we poor simple Americans don't.

It's not that Asians don't know shit, it's just that they're no better than anyone else.

CIA FOIA - Special Collections: Vietnam Histories

from your own cia website, talks about the cia surrogate war in laos etc,

 

[DOMS]

LOL. other than a story related to her by her father? you run us dangerously close to getting off topic DOMS. but I applaud your effort anyways

Hell no. She's an awesome Asian with the truth! You know, the one we American's aren't allowed to know. She's got the dope on the good shit. We're about to get all historical up in this bitch.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Hell no. She's an awesome Asian with the truth! You know, the one we American's aren't allowed to know. She's got the dope on the good shit. We're about to get all historical up in this bitch.

Friends of Pol Pot
they seem on the up and up

so did the american people even know that nixon and later johnson waged this secret war or are the carpet bombings a figment of our imagination?
If you think your govenemnt like mine is not culpable of some heinous acts, like the non questioning chinese citizens you also have been brainwashed

look up the history of air america, unfortunately there isn't much about them either except they were the CIA airforce.

 

[DOMS]

CIA FOIA - Special Collections: Vietnam Histories

from your own cia website, talks about the cia surrogate war in laos etc,

Once again, you're posting links to shit that you're not reading. I did a search for Pol Pot in that document. There is exactly one entry. It details that the actions taken by the NVA helped to solidify Pol Pot's regime.

Everyone knows that the US was doing all sorts of clandestine stuff in Asia. None of which was done in concert with Pol Pot. Like I said, he took advantage of the fallout of the US' action there, and that was it.

The US has sided with plenty of dictators, you don't need to go making shit up.

 

[bio-chem]

Once again, you're posting links to shit that you're not reading. I did a search for Pol Pot in that document. There is exactly one entry. It details that the actions taken by the NVA helped to solidify Pol Pot's regime.

Everyone knows that the US was doing all sorts of clandestine stuff in Asia. None of which was done in concert with Pol Pot. Like I said, he took advantage of the fallout of the US' action there, and that was it.

The US has sided with plenty of dictators, you don't need to go making shit up.

Uh oh. DOMS decided to come in swinging. Im going to watch the fun

 

[DOMS]

Friends of Pol Pot
they seem on the up and up

so did the american people even know that nixon and later johnson waged this secret war or are the carpet bombings a figment of our imagination?
If you think your govenemnt like mine is not culpable of some heinous acts, like the non questioning chinese citizens you also have been brainwashed

look up the history of air america, unfortunately there isn't much about them either except they were the CIA airforce.

Like I said, that's the same unsubstantiated crap that's been repeated every time the supposed link between the US and Pol Pot comes up.

"Two U.S. relief aid workers"? That's their source? Even then, what diabolic thing was the US supposed to have done? They made sure that everyone, including the Khmer Rouge, had access to aid sent to SE Asia. The horror!

The US gave Saddam weapons of mass destruction, but this shit, making sure that everyone got the humanitarian aid, that's the master move in supporting a dictator!

 

[DOMS]

Uh oh. DOMS decided to come in swinging. Im going to watch the fun

This isn't the first time I've debated this. The first time I did, I simply assumed it was true. The US has a track record for doing that crap; but try as I might, I simply couldn't find any credible proof that links the US to Pol Pot.

It's like the third-worlders don't want to believe that one of their own could rise up and kill like that on their own. Inferiority complex?

 

[bandaidwoman]

STRATFOR Search | STRATFOR

then go to statfor, reliable link, unfortunately archived articles are over 14 days require membership which I have but if you want to join you can

 

[DOMS]

STRATFOR Search | STRATFOR

then go to statfor, reliable link, unfortunately archived articles are over 14 days require membership which I have but if you want to join you can

Post it. You're done it before.

Also, I find it hard to believe that one pay site on the entire Internet is going to have the only real proof. What's more likely is that someone is going to use the same information that everyone has access to, and use leaps in logic, assumptions, and such to try to "prove" it.

Put another way: they're not going to have any real proof.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Post it. You're done it before.

Also, I find it hard to believe that one pay site on the entire Internet is going to have the only real proof. What's more likely is that someone is going to use the same information that everyone has access to, and use leaps in logic, assumptions, and such to try to "prove" it.

Put another way: they're not going to have any real proof.

Pol Pot: Biography from Answers.com
http://www.zcommunications.org/the-khmer-rouge-and-cold-war-geopolitics-by-robert-miller
this is what we were taught kind of the cliffs notes of what asians have been taught

Perhaps we can agree that both sides don't really have proof either way? It's our history books vs yours. I believe it is a fact that america lobbied for khmer rouge inclusion into UN which is dammning to us Asians about your support for the regime? To us asians, that was the biggest affront when the US recognized them as the legitamite government of cambodai. Perhaps we can leave it at that. As for statfor I am pissed at them since some of those older articles i had partial access to them and needed to cough up more bucks for enterprise access whatever the hell that is. I know you would not be happy with partial summaries. I get it free from my dad so I have no idea how to upgrade the damn thing. It;s not cheap that I know. And we both know our respective goverments are capable of heinous actions. and I include china who by the way supported the khmer rouge, so I am not just pointing fingers at the US>

 

[DOMS]

Pol Pot: Biography from Answers.com
this is what we were taught kind of the cliffs notes of what asians have been taught

Perhaps we can agree that both sides don't really have proof either way? I believe it is a fact that america lobbied for khmer rouge inclusion into UN which is dammning to us Asians about your support for the regime? Perhaps we can leave it at that. As for statfor I am pissed at them since some of those older articles i had partial access to them and needed to cough up more bucks for enterprise access whatever the hell that is. I know you would not be happy with partial summaries. I get it free from my dad so I have no idea how to upgrade the damn thing. It;s not cheap that I know. And we both know our respective goverments are capable of heinous actions. and I include china who by the way supported the khmer rouge, so I am not just pointing fingers at the US>

You really, really need to read the stuff you link to. I quote (emphasis mine):

"testified at the UN-backed Tribunal, that US policies in the 1970s contributed to the brutal regime's rise to power.[9] ."I think the Khmer Rouge would already have been demolished," he said of their status by 1970. "But Mr Kissinger (then US secretary of state) and Richard Nixon were quick [to back coup leader Gen Lon Nol], and then the Khmer Rouge noted the golden opportunity."

I will not just agree there's no t proof either way. There simply is no proof that the US did anything other than destabilize the region, which Pol Pot seized upon.

THERE IS NO PROOF AT ALL THAT THE US ACTIVELY AIDED POL POT. NONE.

That is one simple irrefutable fact. Unless you're saying that all sorts of documents leaked about all the other dictators the US backed, but just not, miraculously, those about Pol Pot.

Let me put this another way: US textbooks have barely any facts, but Asian ones do, except that they have no proof. Yeah, those books are so much better than ours.

I have no problem owning up to the crap that US has done, I just won't do it for completely unsubstantiated crap.

 

[bandaidwoman]

It was all covert and yes I read it

U.S. Covert Support for Khmer Rouge

The official U.S. policy towards the Khmer Rouge is explained in two formerly secret, but now declassified, documents.38 One of these documents records a meeting between the U.S. Department of Sate and the Foreign Ministry of Thailand.39 The other records a meeting between Gerald Ford, Henry Kissinger and General Suharto in Jakarta in December 1975.40 In the first document Henry Kissinger says to the Thai Foreign Minister, Chatchai Chunhawan, the he "should tell [the Khmer Rouge] that we bear no hostility towards them. We would like them to be independent as a counterweight to North Vietnam", and that he "should also tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs but we won't let that stand in our way. We are prepared to improve relations with them." Kissinger also said that "we are aware that the biggest threat in Southeast Asia at the present time is North Vietnam. Our strategy is to get the Chinese into Laos and Cambodia as a barrier to the Vietnamese."41 This is all very telling. The phrase "independent counterweight to Vietnam" almost certainly says a lot more than it first seems since the Khmer Rouge were not independent of Vietnam, but openly hostile and violent towards them. Assuming that Kissinger knew of Khmer Rouge racial policies against ethnic Vietnamese and the border attacks on Vietnam, and it would be quite surprising if he didn't, then his offer to be friends with them is most likely a way to punish Vietnam for defeating the U.S. and straying from the role that the U.S. selected for them. After all, the U.S. was already trying to punish Vietnam with an embargo and if Vietnam was sufficiently punished then other countries would be too scared to defy the U.S. in the future, surely one of the major reasons behind the Vietnam war in the first place.

In the other document Kissinger told Suharto that "the government [of Cambodia] is in many ways worse than Vietnam, but we would like it to be independent. We don't discourage Thailand and China from drawing closer to Cambodia."42 Viewing ‘Independent' as a codeword for ‘hostile to Vietnam', this reads as ‘We would like to see the Khmer Rouge supported because they help to punish and isolate Vietnam but we cannot do it ourselves because they are too brutal so we are having our allies do it.' This is the essence of American policy towards the Khmer Rouge while they were in power. Because they hated Vietnam for defeating them and wanted to scare other countries away from defying them in the future, the U.S. supported the Khmer Rouge through their allies. Cambodia was thus declared expendable.

But even though American policy was to tacitly support the Khmer Rouge, many Cold Warriors and elites in the U.S. used the brutality of the Khmer Rouge to show the evil of communism.43 When the media was referring to Khmer Rouge atrocities they usually called them "communist atrocities". This says a lot. Especially considering that following their recent defeat in Vietnam, Americans had found new fervour in the ideological war between communism and capitalism. If there was another factor it was most likely the Vietnam War. The U.S. elite was seeking to write a history of Vietnam that showed them in the best possible light and showing the brutality of the communists was a great way to achieve this.

So on the one hand the U.S. supported the Khmer Rouge through their allies so as to continue punishing Vietnam, and on the other they used the brutality of the Khmer Rouge to prove the brutality of communism and thus justify all of their foreign policies and stay ahead in the ideological war.

the key is covert support. the links to the kissinger documents look good.

 

[DOMS]

It was all covert and yes I read it

the key is covert support. which is why there is also so little on air america.

Where does this quote come from? What document or recording is taken from?

 

[bandaidwoman]

Cambodian Genocide Program | Yale University

yale university

it's real neat click on the links and it has the actual scanned documents.

For the record, in our history books, ( Thailand and Malaysia's) I remember being taught that our respective countries were saved by American's entry into the Vietnam conflict. Ho had his sights intialy on us, we are rich in natural resources ( especially Malaysia's rubber and tin industry) and governments were unstable at the time, heck I think Thailand was on the brink of a civil war ( the wandering guerrillas and militia government) , we think that if Ho chi minh was not distracted by battle on the homefront he would have dominated us, something the US history books also don't teach...

 

[bandaidwoman]

you are definitely in the minority when it comes to professional health care providers opinions

we academic research clinicians are a different species from private practice physicians ( although I am a rarity since i straddle both worlds). I will take a gander you don't hang out with research academians, more private practice high end specialties like radiologists and anesthesiologists etc.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Religious Doctors No More Likely To Care For Underserved Patients

back to the topic at hand, at least for doctors religiosity does not mean a higher calling to served the underserved

 

[MtnBikerChk]

UPDATE on the original topic: The school board is not appealing.

Enfield school board quits the fight to have graduations at church - Courant.com

ENFIELD ??? ???
The board of education will not appeal a federal judge's ruling barring the district from holding high school graduations at First Cathedral in Bloomfield later this month.

The board voted 5-4 Thursday night against filing an appeal. The board then voted 7-2 to hold graduations at each high school on June 23 and 24.

"Appealing would not have meant we were going to the cathedral," board member Judith Apruzzese-Desroches said. "We need to get it done. We need to provide something for these students who are graduating. The board needs to move on and establish a graduation site and get back to education."

School administrators will determine whether to plan for an indoor or outdoor graduation ceremony at each school, the board decided.

The appeal would have been on a decision by Judge Janet Hall Monday to grant an injunction request included with a federal lawsuit filed against the district in May. The American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State, representing two seniors and three parents, alleged in the suit that the board of education was endorsing religion by using the church for graduations.

"The board of education decided tonight to choose a graduation location that will bring people together rather than divide them," said Andrew Schneider, director of the ACLU of Connecticut. "This will bring certainty to the graduation plans of Enfield students and will refocus the attention on what matters most ??? the education and graduation of Enfield students."

Vincent McCarthy, the board's attorney, said after the vote that he was shocked that the board will not appeal the ruling. He said he intended for the board to file an appeal with the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit in New York.

"I personally think it was a mistake this evening not to continue with the appeal," said board Chairman Gregory Stokes. "I've always believed the backup plan would be [holding graduations] at the school properties."

Stokes said that if the board decided to appeal, administrators still would have planned for an alternate location, assuming that ceremonies would not be held at the church.

Enrico Fermi High School valedictorian Andrew Silva said after the vote that he was disappointed, and heard many students say that if the graduations were held at the high schools they would consider not attending.

"It all has to do with the number of seats," Silva said. "That's all it's always been about; it's never been about religion."

He said he hoped the board could still choose another off-campus location, but thought that there probably is not enough time to reserve another site.

 

[MDR]

Nice that someone got back on topic! Glad to hear the ceremony will be held somewhere that includes all involved. Seems to me that this whole thing is about what is best for ALL the students involved, regardless of their individual belief systems. As an atheist, I know I would not have taken part in a ceremony at a church. I suspect a portion of the student body feels the same way. I did get a kick out of some of the arguments here. I realize that the country was founded on christian values, values that included slavery and female subjugation. Things change for a reason, and countries evolve. The majority of people may still believe in god, but that does not in any way imply that they are right in their beliefs, or that they have the right to foist their antiquated beliefs on the rest of us. I believe strongly in the freedom of religion. But this also includes those of us who do not believe in god or organized religion in any way, shape or form. People have the right to believe what they want, but part of the cost of that freedom is respect for people who express their right to disagree and dissent. It is one of the important things that make this the greatest country in the world-the right to expouse your beliefs without persecution from those who disagree with you, especially when the government comes into play. I may disagree with your beliefs, but I will defend your right to believe what you choose, so long as you don't try to force everyone to believe they way you do.

 

[NeilPearson]

The one that was there in the first place.

That was Odin right? Or was it Thor?

 

[NeilPearson]

On one hand I completely agree with you. It's ludicrous that a building would foster such animosity. However, on the other hand, all religious structures -- particularly churches -- are symbolic of religions' influence on their followers. And so, to the non-religious -- and ESPECIALLY to the anti-religious -- it can be discomforting knowing you're surrounded by mindsets you reject. I've been in only 1 church and 1 synagogue, both when I was much younger, and even then I felt extremely uncomfortable and out of place.

I know what you mean. I feel like I am betraying my beliefs every time I have to enter a church for events like weddings. I have a real moral struggle supporting anything that is associated with religion in any way.

I support these guys:

Freedom From Religion Foundation

 

[Phineas]

nice that someone got back on topic! Glad to hear the ceremony will be held somewhere that includes all involved. Seems to me that this whole thing is about what is best for all the students involved, regardless of their individual belief systems. As an atheist, i know i would not have taken part in a ceremony at a church. I suspect a portion of the student body feels the same way. I did get a kick out of some of the arguments here. I realize that the country was founded on christian values, values that included slavery and female subjugation. Things change for a reason, and countries evolve. The majority of people may still believe in god, but that does not in any way imply that they are right in their beliefs, or that they have the right to foist their antiquated beliefs on the rest of us. I believe strongly in the freedom of religion. But this also includes those of us who do not believe in god or organized religion in any way, shape or form. People have the right to believe what they want, but part of the cost of that freedom is respect for people who express their right to disagree and dissent. It is one of the important things that make this the greatest country in the world-the right to expouse your beliefs without persecution from those who disagree with you, especially when the government comes into play. I may disagree with your beliefs, but i will defend your right to believe what you choose, so long as you don't try to force everyone to believe they way you do.

bingo!

 

[NeilPearson]

Just look at the place with the least amount of religion: sub-Saharan Africa. Far and away, you won't find a more fucked up place on the planet. In South Africa, a person is raped every 26 seconds. A child (ages 3 to 12) is raped every 90 minutes. I don't mean that someone touched a child inappropriately, I talking about forced intercourse.

Yay for no religion...

...and religion worked real well for the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and more recently all of the middle east and the terrorist accounts linked to religion.

Places are messed up in this world. For every non-religious messed up place out there, there is a religious messed up place too. There is no corelation

 

[NeilPearson]

I was just wondering if the LDS approved of your boob swinging avatar