Macronutrient Intake Timing

[Marat]

I've been reading up on ideal times to have the various macronutrients. Sifting through the threads, it seems like even on these boards, there isn't a full consensus. I've been seeing a lot of the concept of having proteins and fats for the majority of the meals, and then having some complex carbs with protein before workout, and then some simple sugars/carbs with protein and low fat after workout.

There's a few things a wanted to bring up to get the discussion to be steered in a direction that I think would be helpful:

1) I'm aware of the science for the most part. However, the application is still iffy. Here's an example of a journal article suggesting that post workout insulin spikes are not necessary for protein synthesis Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise -- Børsheim et al. 96 (2): 674 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

However, there are dozens of people that disagree, and swear by having some white rice with their chicken breast.

2) How does nutrient timing apply to people that participate in no resistance training or cardio? How would you explain when consuming which nutrients is okay? This is essentially for the demographic that is unable/unwilling to take on strenuous resistance training but would still like to eat cleanly.

3) Thirdly, does this matter at all? As long as you are within your macronutrient guidelines, does it make a difference when you consume what?
An ancillary to this question is how important is the GI? Assuming servings of fibrous/green/leafy vegetables are plentiful, does it matter if the remaining carbohydrates come from high glycemic foods vs medium glycemic foods?


I've done my best to try to develop my own opinion on these questions but I repeatedly find myself failing to come up with a good answer.

 

[Marat]

Albeit I do not have evidence to back up the following statement, I think it is fair to say that the majority of the dieting community's issues are not about how to get down to 5% bodyfat but more on how to get to that 11-15% range (males).

That said, the Bro vs Keto thread provides excellent perspectives on matters similar to what I was asking about in the previous post. However, the goals in the said thread relate to taking individuals down to competition levels, and not for the majority of the community.

My goal of this thread was to get clarification on nutrient timing for those who are at BF levels similar to myself (currently approx 275 hydrated / ~22% BF). The reason why I differentiate between the goal percentages is because it seems like at 22%, the process of losing fat need not be as rigorous at the process of losing fat at 9% [editor's note: After re-reading this statement, I realize there may or may not be a degree of fallacy in that statement. I don't know. But lets go with it for now]. Additionally, I'm interested in how to advise someone who doesn't resistance train at all, perhaps a 50 year old woman looking to lose some weight.

A little more background on myself for clarification on where the following questions are coming from...
I started actively monitoring my diet about 5 weeks ago. Let's call it dieting attempt number 330535908. The difference between this and the others is that I feel like the simplicity makes it very easy to adapt as a lifestyle change and not just a diet. With Built's help, I've lost 11 lbs since then and I'd presume based on my appearance that the ratio between muscle/fat loss is in healthy proportion. Although I have struggled with finding the proper mix of exercise choices and rep ranges, I'd like to think that, besides program design, I have solid gym fundamentals. I settled on doing P/RR/S a few weeks ago just for the sake of picking something. I'm happy with it. Additionally, I do a lot (no, really. A lot) of reading on these various topics. However, I have years of unsuccessful dieting, and its difficult to determine what information to apply without the assistance from those who have aided in and partaken in dieting success.

I am aware that so far my dieting has been successful...the math works out to about 2.2 pounds per week. However, my goal is still to optimize my dieting plan if there is room for improvement. Specifically, the timing of nutrient intake is my concern.

For someone at 22% trying to get down to <15%, I'm interested in the 3rd question that I asked in my previous post. Currently, I've been trying to avoid starchy carbs except before and after workout (see question 1 in the last post if you want). Is that insulin spike necessary for people like me? For most resistance/LISS training days (my schedule is 4 days a week resistance + post-resistance 25-30min of LISS; 3 days a week HIIT) would it be optimal to avoid those starchy carbs and just stick to vegetables for my carb sources...and perhaps have some pasta or whatever when I really feel that I'm craving it (all within recommended macros)? Or would it make no difference for someone at my BF% (see question 3 again)? I'm a huge starchy carb junkie, but I wouldn't mind at all only having them once in awhile just to satisfy my cravings. However, if the difference in fat loss between eating pasta after every training system to spike insulin for optimizing protein intake and only sticking with vegetables +protein is negligible, I might as well go for the pasta and protein....right?

What about non training days? Are starchy carbs okay to eat at all? Or is it best to just stick with veggies? I do HIIT on my rest days, and per Built's How to do cardio if you must | Wannabebig, I've been having currently having some starchy pre-workout, however, the article doesn't specify starchy or veggie. What's the call?

Speaking of non-training days....what do you recommend to people who don't train at all? The reasons why they don't train are beyond the scope of this post, and I suppose the argument "if they want results they need to train etc" is out there, however, lets ignore that for now.

When we give them a macronutrient breakdown and we suggest consuming 100g carbs, does it matter if they are starchy or veggie? (see question 2 and 3 if you wish). I believe I have read that Gopro doesn't include vegetables into his carb count. This is all assuming that the recommend 25g of fiber are consumed daily, by the way.

My final question relates to the other macronutrients. I've been consuming protein + fat + vegetables for all my meals besides pre/post training. However, if I were to grill up a lean beef burger and eat it with a bun, would it matter if I were to do this around training time or not [this question is based on the logic that: a) the insulin spike is necessary post training b) you want to avoid that starchy carb induced insulin spike unless you are post training].

I'm currently beyond the point of helping myself on these questions. I've done all the research that I can and I have come to no consensus. If I had 10 years of successful dieting under my belt, I'd answer these questions on my own. However, since I do not have that experience and I would prefer to not have to trial and error it until I get it correct, I am looking for outside help.

Anything would be appreciated.

 

[Built]

At 22% bodyfat, no, you don't need an insulin spike. Make sure you are adequately nourished preworkout - it is by far more important than post.

My .02

 

[sakbar]

PreWorkout Meal

Hi Built, one medium-sized banana and one scoop whey would be a good recommendation for pre-workout snack, no?

Thanks,
Sak

 

[Marat]

At 22% bodyfat, no, you don't need an insulin spike. Make sure you are adequately nourished preworkout - it is by far more important than post.

My .02

I've read bits and pieces of your thoughts on post workout carbs for fat folks basically suggesting that they should be avoided.

Is there anything else to that concept?

Opinions other than that of Built's are very much appreciated as well. Additionally, my previous questions in this thread have been settled, so one doesn't need to bother answering them for my sake.

 

[Built]

See to me, it's not a matter of "should" - I just don't think they're necessary. If you WANT them and you're comfortable, if you are able to stick to your cutting diet, go for it.

 

[Yanick]

Okay I'll give my opinion.

It truly doesn't matter much. I used to be crazy like you, worrying about every facet of my nutrition, making sure everything is exactly how the 'gurus' said it has to be. All it led to was worrying. I got to a point where I was a bit fed up with having this strict way of doing everything and eased up. I enjoy a banana in my PWO shake because it tastes good with chocolate whey and Natty PB so I have it. I've done pure dextrose, oatmeal, no fat, fat and protein, carbs and protein and so on and so forth ad nauseum. You know what happened? Nothing, I make just as much progress now as I did when I followed every guru out there. Except now I do it without a headache or worry in the world. I've lost 15lbs, and in the beginning I was having jam with whole wheat bread for breakfast. And, no offense to Built, but I'm ex-fat too and the insulin doesn't do anything to me. I've tightened up my diet quiet a bit now because at 1900-2000/day 1/2C oatmeal is more satisfying than a piece of bread of a tbsn of jam but thats about it, there's no crazy rationale of hormone reguation and neuropeptide hooey to why I do things. Calories in vs out, adequate protein and fat and the rest is all about comfort and convenience.

But in the end, watch your calories, eat balanced meals and bust your ass in the gym. All the worrying is just going to raise cortisol levels and give you a headache or an ulcer. Consistency and hard work will be what gets you closer to your goals. And as Built likes to say (one reason I like her philosophy) if something is not working, try it another way. So if you are finding it hard to stick to a certain method, try it differently. I'd kill myself without carbs in my diet, others want to chew their arm off after eating some oats. There's no way around trial and error, we all have to do it at some point.