Hi Kbm. Relgions also felt and said that a man's penis was the devil and that the source of all evil was a man's penis.... I KNOW some women will agree with that assessment of religion..... Take Care, John H.Originally posted by kbm8795
Now there I went, getting all involved when I didn't want to...
By the way, since women were considered property back then, they were also treated as if they were only the "carriers" of new life. Apparently, the widely held belief for many years was that a man's sperm carried all the life in it, and they didn't even believe that a woman had an egg to fertilize.
This makes some historical sense. While I have limited knowledge about sodomy, I think the early restrictions actually punished the perpetrator...or inserter...rather than the recepient even if the relationship was consensual. It had to do with the belief that sperm contained the actual baby seed.
Wow..now I've never talked about sex like that...now..all you guys will be coming onto these ladies asking them to ..uh..see if they can find your ..babies.
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Nearly one Male in every two - Homosexuality and BiSexuality
- Thread starter John H.
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Hi Maniclion. HELL YES! Bodybuilding is a WONDERFUL SIN!!! One of the GOOD ONES!!!! TDGC, John H.
Hi Maniclion. AGREED WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!! TDGC, John H.
Hi My. I utilize capital letters to emphasize what I am saying... NOT to yell at anyone..... It is proper form to use to emphase. I try real hard not to use them but sometimes it becomes very necessary... As for the subject - I CARE that it be DISCUSSED and that that discussion BE ACCURATE AND HONEST AND COMPLETE. The we can go on to some other important subjects - FOR UNDERSTANDING! There is a real LACK OF ANY UNDERSTANDING... Take Care, John H.
Hi Pierzen. I said God/Christ NEVER SAID and they NEVER DID. THEMSELVES. See the difference? I was not incorrect. Now if you BELIEVE that every word in the Bible is the Word of God/Christ..... Then you have to ask yourself why the contradictions within it? I have "cracked open" the Bible. I do not claim to "be an expert" at anything actually. No one ever is. Learning is lifelong and no one will ever know it all ever...Originally posted by Pierzin
John H, You are wrong! As Stickboy clearly states, Homosexuality and Bisexuality are addressed in the Bible several times, so forget about trying to say it's ok with God. You really must not have ever cracked open a Bible, or you would know otherwise.
I could really care less right now, as I'm Agnostic and straight. Many people (myself included) grew up in a church, so we know a thing or two about religion.
Way to go Stickboy! This has been an entertaining thread! Thanks Burner for the enlightenment on the origination of middle ages proverbs and sayings!
Oh and to IAreBaboon, the Romans were not conquered. The Roman Empire fell, due to many causes(too many of which to name here). Thus Edward Gibbons' lengthy tome, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".
Another cultural point to make: While the Greeks had no qualms with homosexuality, and to some extent, neither did the Romans, the upper classes of Romans did not approve of it. Like many things in their evolving world, they tolerated it. Most "pious" and "upright" Romans would never be caught engaging in questionable behavior. And this was long before Constantine put his stamp of approval on the church.
As for the Romans, etc. - Homosexuality was practiced by the "higher ups" acutally too - it was WRONG (according to the powers that be) for someone to have Sex (same sex, etc.) with a "slave" or someone who "was not" (another Roman, etc.)... It was felt people must be of the "same station" in life. You did not associate with someone "beneath you". Take Care, John H.
i know this but its still hella annoying
Well, if we can't believe 100 percent what the Bible says because it was interpreted by man, we can believe even less that this history in Italy ever happened because it was interpreted by man from man.
I think the validity of interpretation becomes more diluted over time and in connection with the number of times it has been altered to fit a particular religion's viewpoint or meet cultural needs. That's another reason why this nation was wise in establishing a freedom of religion clause in the First Amendment - to prevent particular groups, including fundamentalists, from claiming exclusive rights to "true" religious belief. If there had not been varying interpretations, we'd all have a single christian religion manifested in one particular church with no variation.
i don't understand why people get so adament over the Bible. if you are sure every word in there is direct from God and should be used to guide your lives...then it's ok to sell your daughters into slavery. it's also ok to put someone to death for working the sabbath. see what i mean? what "qualifies" any one of us to interpret what is/is not acceptable in God's eyes better than our neighbor?
Hi My. I do not enjoy using capitals but find it necessary - it takes more work to use them for sure... There really is no better way to emphasize (at least that I know of - I am not a computer wiz and never will be). I do try to keep it down whenever possible. By the way, how much does your CAT lift now - what is he up to? I can just see it now.... My neighbor had a cat that weighed 32 pounds - when I first saw it I thought it was a dog... You should have seen how fast it could move!! Take Care John H.
Hi Michael D. The Bible was written by Man - over 40 and over a long period of time. You have a point except that the author does give his sources and we can always go and check out where he got the information for ourselves if we want (the books I listed above or any other that give sources) - and I have done this before when I did not believe what was written. I do check sources... Remember I said the Bible was written by Man - and he also interprets it too - even those that claim not to interpret it... Take Care, John H.
Hi Kbm. I agree completely. I do see this nation heading towards this somewhat "...claiming exclusive religious rights..." The Founding Fathers were VERY wise to insist on separation of church and state. History proves them to be absolutely right about that. Take Care, John H.
Hi Nike. Yep - good examples! And there are more. Take Care, John H.
I would like all that have any kind of interest in knowing about Sexuality to at least read the books I have listed here - and others too if you like and then comment on what you have read. I think we all can benefit from doing this. All viewpoints should always be considered and discussed. That is how we all learn and understand... That is my point for posting this subject for example. Take Care, John H.
Yeah...it's interesting. Fundamentalists regularly rail against the concept of separation of church and State - they believe their particular version of christian theory is intrinsically part of the checks and balances system of our government. They talk a lot about our Founding Fathers and their relationship to religion, although most of their own fundamentalist churches didn't exist at the time. They also tend to attack people like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. They claim the separation concept isn't true...and sponsor a revisionist viewpoint of our history, naturally ignoring whatever points might negate their views. Between attacking the "activist" judicial system for defending constitutional and individual rights and pushing an agenda that recognizes only a limited number of religious practices, they are certainly trying to overhaul our nation's founding documents and establish some form of theocracy favoring their particular interpretations.
My cat is the most athletic cat! i swear...His name is Clovis and he can jump like 6 feet high without getting a running start!
He's pretty big and most people think he's fat
but then i pick him up(he is heavy too lol)
and i bring him over so they can feel his muscles...
he has like 2% bf at most! i swear he's all muscle and fur...lol
I bet you could put a 50 pound vest on top of him and he could still run
hes awesome!
and his claws are terribly scary, tear you to shreads....watch out now!
Heh, I'm sure this was directed at me.
No one is "qualified" to judge anyone. That is God's place and no others. I never stated I was qualified, I merely posted examples of where God is quoted on his thoughts on homosexuality. John H. said no where in the bible did God say anything about it, when in fact, God DID state so this to Moses.
By the way, There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, to be considered, immoral. However, that doesn't make it right. By the end of the 19th century, it was abolished almost everywhere. Note that Paul, declared slavery as "inherently evil". This would be the Paul that founded the Catholic Church. Slavery is condemed by all most all churches today. (Meaning, it doesn't necessarily apply)
"On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the Sabbath of complete rest to the Lord. Anyone who does work on that day, shall be put to death. You shall not even light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day. (Exodus 35:2-3 NAB)"
That is from the Old Testament. It would take to long to explain why it no longer necessarily applies.
I don't consider those good examples. Good examples for what?
Certainly not examples of what this discussion is about.
Are we not talking about homosexuality, and John's claims that neither God nor Jesus every mentioned anything about that subject?
Well, Stickboy, actually you DO judge...after all, you would restrict human and civil rights for those people...wouldn't want them working in certain occupations (like serving in the military). Sounds pretty judgemental to me.
Ah..so only selected verses apply today...sounds like revisionism. I believe it was a fundamentalist preacher who made a very big deal out of demanding separation of the races...well into the 20th Century, based on the idea that each was placed on a separate continent so they wouldn't mix...and of course, the dark race was created to "serve." I think that is one of those early "creationist" theories about origination and purpose of the races. So, even when the majority of religions abandoned support for slavery, they still clinged to the separation of races theory- in fact, many of them were behind perpetuating government policy in that regard until the 1960's. Most don't seem to mount a sermon about that subject any longer. . .
Ah..so only selected verses apply today...sounds like revisionism. I believe it was a fundamentalist preacher who made a very big deal out of demanding separation of the races...well into the 20th Century, based on the idea that each was placed on a separate continent so they wouldn't mix...and of course, the dark race was created to "serve." I think that is one of those early "creationist" theories about origination and purpose of the races. So, even when the majority of religions abandoned support for slavery, they still clinged to the separation of races theory- in fact, many of them were behind perpetuating government policy in that regard until the 1960's. Most don't seem to mount a sermon about that subject any longer. . .
Hi Kbm. I agree completely. Having said that though I do understand and appreciate a person´s need and desire to find answers to the most important and pressing questions of life and living and the "unknown" but too often people just will not or do not consider ALL information from ALL sources and seem willing to accept just about anything thrown at them that "sounds good" without any regard seemingly as to its accuracy and truthfulness. To me the very best thing anyone can do for themselves is to learn all they can from all areas and subjects even if it is not something they are necessarily interested in - as time goes by it is surprising how much you can pick up on and learn and how much better you feel about life and lving for having done so. When a person limits themselves they automatically place themselves in a mental prison and slam the door shut. Life to me is to be understood and to be lived and enjoyed with respect, dignity, honor, etc. I do not want to see this country end up like Iraq where that country is basically divided into three sections and each have their own religious beliefs and are killing each other over whose is the "right" religion and who has the "right" god. This basically exists in the entire region and even in other areas of the world. Throughout history religion and politics have been at the very heart of misery and murder. If people would be more willing to have or develop an open mind and be objective and to question and learn this trouble seems to be far less of a problem. People will always have their feelings and opinions but they must always be based on as much accurate honest information as possible. Take care, John H.
Hi My. AHHHHH!!! A REAL cat!!!!!! Does he act as if he hasn´t been feed in YEARS even though he may have just ate? It sounds as if you should enter him into a Mr. America contest! There is nothing better than a very well muscled healthy body - even in a cat!!!! I love how they can find a comfortable place to rest just about anywhere.... And their independence!!!!! (AND knowledge!!!!) Good health allows everyone to be very happy!!!!! Take Care, John H.Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts
My cat is the most athletic cat! i swear...His name is Clovis and he can jump like 6 feet high without getting a running start!
He's pretty big and most people think he's fat
but then i pick him up(he is heavy too lol)
and i bring him over so they can feel his muscles...
he has like 2% bf at most! i swear he's all muscle and fur...lol
I bet you could put a 50 pound vest on top of him and he could still run
hes awesome!
and his claws are terribly scary, tear you to shreads....watch out now!
Actually he will eat and eat
and then he'll stop and my other cat will come in and try to eat
but then he will push that cat or swat at that cat till it moves aside and he'll eat some more!
hes mean, but good natured
he plays with my puppy
And i hate how everyone says they are not as loving as dogs
yes they are independent, but they love just as much
My cats always come and sit on my lap and i scratch their ears
and rub them and they purrr
And they have pride too
when dogs are yelled at they stick their tail between their legs...
cats wuold never show such disgrace
And they are so pretty
Hi Stickboy. The Bible itself creates my questioning and disbelief because of some of the things it has to say that make absolutely no sense from the standpoint of a reasonable person with common sense. And it contradicts itself. I understand what you are saying by I still stand by what I said. Let´s take Christ for example - He was on this earth for 32 years - that is a long time. He NEVER said one word about Homosexuality. Surely He did not forget. Certainly if Homosexuality was wrong He would have said so Himself and many times. He had a lot to say about other things for sure. I get upset at how religion(s) seem to just pick and choose the things they "like" to talk about or condemn. In the Bible you speak about there is MUCH said about the wealthy but when it comes down to it VERY LITTLE is said about these people with religion(s) - probably because religion(s) seem to enjoy that wealth themselves and really do not care about the people.... I wonder why it is that very little is said about the children of this world and how they should and must be protected and nurtured and loved - so many are mistreated and abused and not really loved or cared for. No wonder there is so much crime - crime many times comes from how children were raised and loved or not... How is it that God created nature and the natural world and that Homosexuality and BiSexuality and Heterosexuality exists there and always has - we (human beings) ARE a part of that natural world.Originally posted by Stickboy
Heh, I'm sure this was directed at me.
No one is "qualified" to judge anyone. That is God's place and no others. I never stated I was qualified, I merely posted examples of where God is quoted on his thoughts on homosexuality. John H. said no where in the bible did God say anything about it, when in fact, God DID state so this to Moses.
By the way, There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, to be considered, immoral. However, that doesn't make it right. By the end of the 19th century, it was abolished almost everywhere. Note that Paul, declared slavery as "inherently evil". This would be the Paul that founded the Catholic Church. Slavery is condemed by all most all churches today. (Meaning, it doesn't necessarily apply)
"On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the Sabbath of complete rest to the Lord. Anyone who does work on that day, shall be put to death. You shall not even light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day. (Exodus 35:2-3 NAB)"
That is from the Old Testament. It would take to long to explain why it no longer necessarily applies.
I don't consider those good examples. Good examples for what?
Certainly not examples of what this discussion is about.
Are we not talking about homosexuality, and John's claims that neither God nor Jesus every mentioned anything about that subject?
You show some examples above that talk about killing someone, evil, damning, etc. The bigotry, hatred.... God would certainly NOT have a thing to do with all this bs.... I will NEVER accept all this negativeness. Life is LIFE and to be LIVED and understood and celebrated and enjoyed NOT DESTROYED NOT DROWNED!!!! Look at all the problems of the world associated with religion and politics - they have ALWAYS BEEN strange "bedfellows". More people have been killed and murdered in the name of religion and politics than for any other reason in the history of the world!!!! I want NO P??RT of that ever!!!
I have absolutely no problem with someone wanting answers to the most important things of life and living and the unknown. We all have our questions and fears, etc. But those answers MUST consider ALL information from ALL sources ALL the time throughout our lives. Being very open minded and objective about all things is very important and how we really learn accurately and honestly!!! Take Care, John H.
Hi My. Also, NEVER FORGET who REALY OWNS your home (if you were to "ask them")!!!!! Can´t help but love the animals!!!! Take Care, John H.Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts
Actually he will eat and eat
and then he'll stop and my other cat will come in and try to eat
but then he will push that cat or swat at that cat till it moves aside and he'll eat some more!
hes mean, but good natured
he plays with my puppy
And i hate how everyone says they are not as loving as dogs
yes they are independent, but they love just as much
My cats always come and sit on my lap and i scratch their ears
and rub them and they purrr
And they have pride too
when dogs are yelled at they stick their tail between their legs...
cats wuold never show such disgrace
And they are so pretty
Heh, Kbm, there are two testaments you know. It is a matter of applicability. So, no - not selective verses.
There is the old testament, which is where nikegurl pulled her examples from, and the new testament which is where Jesus (God) nullified the old way (which applied to Jews-the israelites and no one else). The new testament applies to all races and people.
Here's a quote, that I believe will put it into perspective:
"The Old and New Testaments are synonyms for Old and New Covenant, not testimonies. Second, the Old Testament was done away at the cross by Christ's death, which ushered in the New Testament. Therefore, we are no longer under obligation to keep the laws of the Old Testament, neither is it authority to justify our actions today. But rather, we are bound to the New Testament and to use it for authority."
So while my examples were also from the Old Testament (which wasn't to imply that they are still valid, just used to show that God did in fact mention it), the New Testament also mentions it.
Homosexuality is specifically mentioned in Romans 1:27, Corinthians 6:9, and in Timothy 1:9-10 as something not to do.
There is the old testament, which is where nikegurl pulled her examples from, and the new testament which is where Jesus (God) nullified the old way (which applied to Jews-the israelites and no one else). The new testament applies to all races and people.
Here's a quote, that I believe will put it into perspective:
"The Old and New Testaments are synonyms for Old and New Covenant, not testimonies. Second, the Old Testament was done away at the cross by Christ's death, which ushered in the New Testament. Therefore, we are no longer under obligation to keep the laws of the Old Testament, neither is it authority to justify our actions today. But rather, we are bound to the New Testament and to use it for authority."
So while my examples were also from the Old Testament (which wasn't to imply that they are still valid, just used to show that God did in fact mention it), the New Testament also mentions it.
Homosexuality is specifically mentioned in Romans 1:27, Corinthians 6:9, and in Timothy 1:9-10 as something not to do.
Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts
Actually he will eat and eat
and then he'll stop and my other cat will come in and try to eat
but then he will push that cat or swat at that cat till it moves aside and he'll eat some more!
hes mean, but good natured
he plays with my puppy
And i hate how everyone says they are not as loving as dogs
yes they are independent, but they love just as much
My cats always come and sit on my lap and i scratch their ears
and rub them and they purrr
And they have pride too
when dogs are yelled at they stick their tail between their legs...
cats wuold never show such disgrace
And they are so pretty
I have a friend whose siamese cat loves it when I come over for a visit - his mistress freaks a little but he loves to fight - she had him declawed years ago cuz he was always fighting and ripping everything up...so he likes to bite...I've left there several times with my hands marked up from our battles - we have a little game going where I sneak a hand down and stroke one of his paws...and he hates that, so he tries to bite at me. Of course, when he gets mad, he turns around and ignores me and pouts for a few minutes, then comes back for a second round. He'll attack my hand around furniture, or around my ankle...tries to scoop my finger with one of his paws and put it into his mouth to bite...he's a trip.
YEA! i used to have this cat names Trixter (lol...but he ran away
)..i would put him on the bed then i would push him around and he'd attack my hand, claws, bite...etc so fun
Then when i got Clovis i did the same thing for a while
but he kinda grew out of it....
but now that we have this little Miniature Datson
she bites his ear and he bits and paws and stuff
after her he is riled up!
so i may play with him agian some day lol
but now that he is full grown...he would cut my wrist and i would bleed to death lol....
good times...
Point #1: You are a brick. How many people addressed this issue in this forum? I do not need to quote anything, because the Bible has quoted God, several times. Period. To give a concession, yes of course there are contradictions in it. However, to my knowledge, there is no verse in the Old or New Testament, where God or Jesus said: "We give our blessing that if two people of the same sex want to lie together as a man and wife lie together, that is fine, and We no longer view it as sin and may they live happy and long."
But there is no such thing. My issue with your post is, you are interpreting things for your own purposes.
The saints and martyrs wrote the Bible as servants of God. What would it take for you to beleive what God said? Should we go and interview God and tape-record how he/she/it feels about the matter? Would you be satisfied then? While I can't and won't quote Jesus( because I've already concluded you are a brick, and not worthy of the effort), the Bible is clear to most of us how God and Jesus feel about homosexuality/bisexuality.
Now whether or not this stuff really happened in the 1500s or whatever, who cares? You must have really been doing some digging to dredge that up. Hey, whatever floats your boat.
Point #2: I know far more than the average Joe about the history and culture of the Romans, so I'll give you that point. Certainly, through the centuries different people acted according to what they felt was ok for them, just as it is today.
This leads me to point #3:
Why do you care? I could care less. I'm agnostic, so I dont follow any rules. If you're gay, you're gay. If you're bi, you're bi. Do what feels right, screw what people say. You make the call. Make your peace with this whole GOD NEVER SAID THIS OR THAT, crap, because people will shoot you down.
Hey, people have gettin their groove on forever with whoever wanted to, so what?
I want to beleive in God, just not the Judeo-Christian God or a lot of what passes for organized religion. Yes, and I llive in Seattle, go figure! And really, I don't have time to sit around and worry about it either.
You have too much time on your hands, hairsplitter.
lol....just lol
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You're in Seattle? and you have theft? Hey...I thought everybody was so busy drinking Starbucks and playing hacky-sack to steal cars......
Whas'sup, bud!
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