no death linked to steroids..really?

[GFR]

OP must be mad because steroids did not work for him.

 

[cg89]

steroids make you strong. don't abuse follow protocols check dosages get blood work and you'll be fine

 

[sassy69]

the second statement is more accurate
sassy i am not referring to the usage of steroids for medical reasons , i am talking about the use of steroids just for cosmetic reasons, and that for me is already an abuse.
Zaphod of course it has negative effects on everybody such as increasing LDL levels, etc... some of the negative effects of steroids are always present on everybody and all research back it up but some other negative effects are not present or present to a lesser degree. remember that there is a long list of negative effects and a very very short one on positive effects.
i know a girl who is 25 (bb on steroids) with a cholesterol level of fat old guy..and it is not hereditary for a fact, now if she dies (hope not i like her) from a heart attack who is going to blame steroids?

As I said, you can't make a statement about steroids and expect to scope the conversation. It just ain't gonna happen. Its a spectrum range of use, and probably underutilized from a medical standpoint.

As you are noting and has been called out, the bigger deal is moderation & educated use.

 

[Curt James]

^^^^ Well said.

 

[Arnold]

i know many will contradict me here and it is a subject that is over discussed but i would like to mention few points especially to those natural and teen bodybuilders.

point #1: If you check the number of bodybuilders and pro athletes that died at a young age (while in perfect shape apparently) you will see a high percentage compared to normal population, while logically it should be the opposite since sports and bodybuilding is supposed to give you better health..then one can logically conclude that there is a common element among those pro athletes that is causing all these death

point #2: you will see articles saying that no death was caused by steroids or proven to be caused by steroids right? well of course ! since all the death are either heart attacks or some kind of cancer or etc... there is no illness called "steroids" that will kill you, it is not easy to DIRECTLY link a heart attack to steroids. they will say his death was not linked to steroids but incidently he was a steroids user.

like saying cigarettes will not kill you...many smokers die from heart attacks and cancer ..but not from cigarettes!!!! smokers will tell you that no death was linked to cigarettes ..of course there is no illness called "cigarettes".

and even worst they will tell you mr so and so died from lung cancer and he does not smoke!

Got my point ?

I do not personally know of any deaths of athletes, bodybuilders, etc. that were directly linked to AAS use/abuse. There are always other factors involved that ultimately cause their death, not AAS.

 

[bjg]

prince as i said it is very hard to find a direct link..the other factors you talked about..they did not come from nowhere...i mean when you see a guy who is in superb competing shape 25 years old no medical history and then he dies from a heart attack then you ve got to ask yourself questions...
besides all the side effects of steroids are not just side effects that stop there..these side effects lead to other and other effects...it is like a chain reaction. you don't need research to know that ..you just need your analytical thinking.
Besides tell me how many steroids users stop at one or two cycles????? or stay within certain limits..from what i see in the Anabolic section here , most of them are way beyond addicts.

 

[hoyle21]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41392...etes-sudden-deaths-spur-call-heart-screening/

 

[hoyle21]

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2011/11/21/hlsa1121.htm

 

[Curt James]

Teen athletes

From that article:

In the Italian study, one in 50 athletes were told they couldn’t play as a result of the ECG tests, Shannon said. “To prevent one death in the U.S., where there’s a lower rate of inherited heart conditions that lead to sudden cardiac arrest, you’d have to stop almost 2,000 kids from playing sports,” he added.

Parents could elect to have an ECG test done on their child/athlete.

 

[Curt James]

amednews: Many physicians unfamiliar with student-athlete heart screening guidelines :: Nov. 21, 2011 ... American Medical News

From that article:

Even the most thorough exams won't detect everything, said Dr. Washington, a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics' Council on Sports Medicine & Fitness. For example, an athlete may get a viral infection months after the exam and develop myocarditis or inflammation of the myocardium. "Even if you did EKGs and ultrasounds on everybody, you are still going to have kids who are going to die unexpectedly," he said.

 

[bjg]

All what you have mentioned as studies did not involve steroids so they are irrelevant for our discussion, your way of thinking is by negative logic: that is mr x died from a heart attack but mr x does not smoke hence smoking does not hurt...This is a wrong way of thinking.
it happens that i am an EKG expert since i designed state of the art EKG advanced analysis devices...there are methods to predict heart problems ahead of time but it is reserved for research and are not common cardiologist practice. But it is always true that some things can go undetected....however this is the case for any disease and one can always find reasons to deny the bad effects of steroids ..you can always find excuses.

 

[heavyiron]

Heart attacks are very common, to assume the heart attack was caused by steroids is also illogical.

I have used steroids many years. I get frequent blood work and see a doctor every 6 months. I have had some side effects but nothing life threatening. There are many many people just like me.

Many medications can cause harm. Tylenol causes death from time to time but many folks have zero problems with Tylenol. To demonize a particular medicine seems odd however I do think education is great. We have studies that show little side effects from testosterone use even when used for 5 months (much longer than a standard cycle).

Our culture is open to plastic surgery and surgeries to remove body fat mechanically but the media has vilified steroids when used for cosmetic reasons. I find that a bit hypocritical.

I would love to see actual scientific data showing the real side effects of steroids that are life threatening but so far this data is elusive. Why is it that we cannot link many steroids directly to death? Maybe the risk is so low a pattern cannot be scientifically mapped out yet. This then raises another point. How dangerous are steroids in relation to other things? Getting in my car and driving to the store can directly lead to my death so do I stop driving? Tylenol has wiped out many livers so do I stop taking Tylenol all together? Water overdose is a reality so do I stop drinking large amounts of water?

Some people have a higher tolerance to risk. I think we should allow adults to take risks in a free society. If an adult wants to jump out of an airplane and sky dive then great. If a lady wants to get liposuction then great. If a guy uses an extra Tylenol for his headache then great. If I want to use Testosterone then great. The bottom line is you are either for freedom or against it. Testosterone is relatively safe in comparison to driving a car. I think its silly that government has criminalized its use. Hopefully it won't ever be a felony to use Tylenol but for those who fight against freedom they may one day get their wish. I'm all for education but let's be honest. Testosterone is a pretty safe medication.

 

[Bowden]

true ..but search for bodybuilders who died young and you will find a long list ranging from heart attacks to antidepressive medicine overdose, to all kinds of reasons and none is really steroids but all could be TRIGGERED by steroids or indirectly caused by steroids.

You understand that bodybuilding, especially at the competition level has nothing to do with training just to stay healthly?

Bodybuilding training in some cases could be the trigger that causes early death if someone has a undiagnosed physical problem then starts bodybuilding training.

These risks have nothing to do with steroid use.

In example, someone has a underlying undiagnosed cardiovascular problem and starts a training program at the intensity level that bodybuilding requires without getting a physical exam before starting training.

Bodybuilding related diets as well in some cases have nothing to do with health, extreme bodybuilding diets consisting of consuming 4k+ calories and over 200 grams of protein a day have nothing to do with staying healthy.

 

[bjg]

ok guys i gave up on you no matter what i say or anybody says you will always find an excuse so go ahead take steroids but i can assure you i will meet you in 20 years when i am 70 and will still be able to whip your ass in the gym kidding

 

[.V.]

ok guys i gave up on you no matter what i say or anybody says you will always find an excuse so go ahead take steroids but i can assure you i will meet you in 20 years when i am 70 and will still be able to whip your ass in the gym kidding

Everyone is missing one important point. Testosterone is well documented (and I'm not going to look for the studies, it's easily available for anyone who wants to look) to increase LDL. Elevated LDL levels do contribute to atherosclerosis. So in the end, testosterone does increase risk of heart attack.

This would be why historically men have had more heart attacks than women.

Should this eliminate use? I think not. My doc and I had this discussion before I was placed on TRT therapy. We also had the discussion about use vs abuse. Use is when it serves a purpose and is not doing harm, abuse is continuing to use when it is causing harm.

However, exercise and diet can easily mitigate the increased risk caused by LDL, good diet and cardio will control LDL quite easily. Supplementation with fish oil will also reduce LDL levels. I've been on for quite a few years. I went on knowing this risk. I've mitigated this risk with diet and training. I lift at least 3x a week. I walk EVERY DAY. I do sprints 2 or 3 times a week. I DO NOT use IFBB pro dosages. In the end, my lipid profile is better than when I started.

Oh yeah, and before you comment "without steroid use you wouldn't be on TRT"... well, no not exactly...my HTPA crashed long before I picked up the first needle, all on it's own, natural causes from a disease process caused by my immune system attacking my own body...CAUSED BY A SUPPOSEDLY HEALTHY DIET. Too many carbs, too much protein, not enough fat in my diet put my health at risk. Changing that around and using AAS by prescription has changed my life for the better.

Sorry, you can't do a blanket Mr. Mackey type statement saying, "Steroids are bad...M'Kay?" Steroid abuse...sure it's got risks and is likely not a good idea. Steroid use...sorry, must disagree with you.

 

[bjg]

Everyone is missing one important point. Testosterone is well documented (and I'm not going to look for the studies, it's easily available for anyone who wants to look) to increase LDL. Elevated LDL levels do contribute to atherosclerosis. So in the end, testosterone does increase risk of heart attack.

This would be why historically men have had more heart attacks than women.

Should this eliminate use? I think not. My doc and I had this discussion before I was placed on TRT therapy. We also had the discussion about use vs abuse. Use is when it serves a purpose and is not doing harm, abuse is continuing to use when it is causing harm.

However, exercise and diet can easily mitigate the increased risk caused by LDL, good diet and cardio will control LDL quite easily. Supplementation with fish oil will also reduce LDL levels. I've been on for quite a few years. I went on knowing this risk. I've mitigated this risk with diet and training. I lift at least 3x a week. I walk EVERY DAY. I do sprints 2 or 3 times a week. I DO NOT use IFBB pro dosages. In the end, my lipid profile is better than when I started.

Oh yeah, and before you comment "without steroid use you wouldn't be on TRT"... well, no not exactly...my HTPA crashed long before I picked up the first needle, all on it's own, natural causes from a disease process caused by my immune system attacking my own body...CAUSED BY A SUPPOSEDLY HEALTHY DIET. Too many carbs, too much protein, not enough fat in my diet put my health at risk. Changing that around and using AAS by prescription has changed my life for the better.

Sorry, you can't do a blanket Mr. Mackey type statement saying, "Steroids are bad...M'Kay?" Steroid abuse...sure it's got risks and is likely not a good idea. Steroid use...sorry, must disagree with you.

GLAD YOU MENTIONED ALL THAT perhaps my point will be clearer:
I have always always said that steroids and test use for medical reasons are ok and they are not considered abuse because the dosage is well within the limits of therapeutic reasons. However steroids taken as a cycle for BB reasons are ALREADY AS IT IS an abuse because the dosage taken during a cycle are way beyond therapeutic reasons. and glad you mentioned LDL. because rise in LDL when taking test for medical reasons can be countered by a good diet and supplements etc... however rise in LDL when doing a cycle cannot be rectified by anything and after few cycles LDL level will increase risks of heart attack , will damage arteries and will do many other things..and that's just LDL.....
anyways like i said i gave up

 

[btex34n88]

exactly steroids do have bad side effects on EVERYBODY , these side effects do not have to be fatal but they become serious with time until their effects can reach a point where they could become fatal. They could be used safely but usually this is done by mature people not by teens and even young new bodybuilders and by new i mean not before 10 years of lifting.
besides all that i really question anything positive that comes from them except short term cosmetic effect. Is it worth it? for some yes and for some no.
of course one could argue about heart problems due to steroids but remember that steroids will make internal changes including your circulatory system and heart which in time could lead to problems. i personally know people who died suddenly from heart failure and they really looked in competition shape when this happened.
unfortunately some people in this forum do not have the maturity to engage in a discussion , instead they go on with their stupid insults, ..
i am a gym owner and people like that are not allowed to step in my gym.
As pushandpull said: if you are natural does not mean you are wimpy full of estrogen in fact the opposite is true ..juicers will end up wimpy on estrogen ..this is a fact ..NONE of my friends juicers who are my age and even 10 years younger can come Close to me ..simply NONE even with their steroids and all the gear they take..why? because they relied on gear all their lives and i relied on years of hard training. this is a SIMPLE FACT. period.

What gym do you own? I would love to come workout there. Im totally natural and enjoy lifting weights.

 

[bjg]

What gym do you own? I would love to come workout there. Im totally natural and enjoy lifting weights.

unfortunately i left the united states (texas) long time ago, i just go there for visits 1 month a year, now i live in Beirut Lebanon. so if you are around you are welcome to workout my treat!

 

[.V.]

... however rise in LDL when doing a cycle cannot be rectified by anything and after few cycles LDL level will increase risks of heart attack , will damage arteries and will do many other things..and that's just LDL.....
anyways like i said i gave up

And this is where you are mistaken. Even at dosages of up to a gram a week, with proper diet and proper training that includes some very high intensity cardio as in a sprint 8, sprint 10, tabata, or the like...routine and DAILY long distance walks... take some fish oil too... and guess what? LDL is completely normal...and I've got the labs to prove it. This is with 12 week blasts and 12 week TRT cruises...blasts that include test, tren, and mast.

My labs are much better NOW than they were before. And yes, my doc is the one who first turned me on to AAS with TRT therapy. And kind of like tylenol, if a little is good, then a lot must be better. OK, so I'm joking here and not actually minimizing the risks...there certainly are risks...but none that can't be mitigated. Even the polycythemia risk, which greatly increases risk of heart attack or stroke, even more than the lipid profile...easily mitigated by donating blood every couple of months.

Sorry man, 23 years of experience in ICU, ER, and EMS as a nurse and a paramedic... I know the risks better than most...and I still don't believe it every time chicken little says the sky is falling. But also don't buy into the "it's harmless, no one's ever died from it" bullshit that we like to tell ourselves either.

Sure, it's safe if done right with careful attention to lab work, to nutrition, and to training. And sure it can kill you if you are idiotic about it. Just like with anything else.

Oh and cancer risks...testosterone has never been shown to cause any cancer...ever...not a single documented case. However, if you are going to get a cancer anyway, and if you do develop the disease and are using any AAS (except for breast cancer in women...test e and test c at relatively high doses are one of the treatments for certain types)...expect it to grow like crazy and probably kill you sooner.

 

[bjg]

You are lucky since your system is coping with the steroids, but many do not respond as well....besides you follow yourself with blood tests etc... how many steroids users do that?????
how about showing you a study on rats with conclusive evidence that tren causes chromosomal damage to user and offsprings and a study on tren causing cysts on cows internal organs.
and seriously would you advise your own son to use steroids???

 

[hypo_glycemic]

^^ bjg. Not being disrespectful at all. Besides the accusation on the Internet and some printed studies, where do you obtain the studies on the adversity of AAS?

I haven't read this whole post.. my bad! But coming on here to argue PAD., is like going to a bowling alley trying to knock pins down without a ball.. right?

I agree with some of your findings- but do you yourself have credentials to make such bias statements that really have no validity?

 

[heavyiron]

I can lower my LDL when on testosterone through diet and exercise easily. I have the lab reports to prove it. One time my LDL was in the 60's while on a blast. Granted my fat intake was low but for me controlling LDL is easy. Bodybuilders are typically conscience of their diet and exercise on a regular basis so controlling lipids is easier for them.

 

[hypo_glycemic]

^ Diet is everything regarding LDL.. Even people who don't use AAS -that have informal LDL-are recommended a clean diet with a moderate protein and high veggie/fruit baseline intake.

 

[heavyiron]

^ Diet is everything regarding LDL.. Even people who don't use AAS -that have informal LDL-are recommended a clean diet with a moderate protein and high veggie/fruit baseline intake.

Yup, low fats and high fiber do wonders for LDL.

 

[Arnold]

prince as i said it is very hard to find a direct link..the other factors you talked about..they did not come from nowhere...i mean when you see a guy who is in superb competing shape 25 years old no medical history and then he dies from a heart attack then you ve got to ask yourself questions...
besides all the side effects of steroids are not just side effects that stop there..these side effects lead to other and other effects...it is like a chain reaction. you don't need research to know that ..you just need your analytical thinking.
Besides tell me how many steroids users stop at one or two cycles????? or stay within certain limits..from what i see in the Anabolic section here , most of them are way beyond addicts.

by other factors I was referring to a predisposition (such as heart, liver, kidney issues) or other drugs, e.g. most pro bodybuilders use insulin and diuretics, that is the death of several bodybuilders in past history, not AAS.

using AAS is a risk just as anything and there certainly could be problems, side effects, etc., but AAS use does not kill people, unless maybe we're talking about using a shitload of methylated orals recklessly and end up with cirrhosis.

how many people die from alcohol and tobacco every year?

 

[Powermaster]

and seriously would you advise your own son to use steroids???

I would have advised my father to check into HRT if I had known to recognized the symptoms of estrogen dominance back then in his aging body which most likely his been determined in recent studies to have caused the cancer that killed him.

 

[.V.]

You are lucky since your system is coping with the steroids, but many do not respond as well....besides you follow yourself with blood tests etc... how many steroids users do that?????

No, I'm not lucky. I just understand how the body works then eat and train appropriately. Most people eat like shit and that's what leads to their heart attacks. Bodybuilders eat for size rather than health, eat way too much protein, etc... too much protein is harsher on the kidneys than steroids. Too many carbs and too much protein leads to the insulin response that causes the inflammatory response from the immune system that leads to plaque build up and elevated LDL. Sorry dude, it's the food, and the excess, not the AAS usage that causes what you talk about. This would be why I'm a fitness guy and NOT a bodybuilder. But if someone is just interested in size...then that's their right too...if they want to take the risks that excessive food and less cardiovascular training will lead to, it's not my place to slam them for it.

I've asked you about the human studies with trenbolone before...I've still not seen them. Back it up please???

and seriously would you advise your own son to use steroids???

If my son has a fever or a headache, I give him tylenol or ibuprofen...both of which have many confirmed kills...far more than AAS has been "claimed" to have...actually confirmed. If my son has an infection, I give him an antibiotic, be it naturopathic or prescription, it's still an antibiotic...and still a poison which will have it's own negative effects on the body, some potentially fatal.

So if it was medically indicated, damn right I'd give him steroids under proper medical supervision. If he was an adult and making his own choices...then I'd offer him the best guidance I could, advise him of the risks and the benefits so that he could make an informed decision...then he would make just that...his own informed, educated decision...It's called liberty, something I believe strongly in.

 

[Curt James]

how many people die from alcohol and tobacco every year?

Assuming that was rhetorical, but difficult to resist a good Google...

The World Health Organization reported that approximately 2.5 million die each year of alcohol related causes.

More @ Alcohol kills more than AIDS, TB or violence: WHO

Tobacco? More than 5 million.

Aspirin, Tylenol, or Advil account for 100,000+ deaths while the Center for Disease Control lists deaths associated with AAS as three (one of those from an infection from a dirty syringe).

 

[bjg]

No, I'm not lucky. I just understand how the body works then eat and train appropriately. Most people eat like shit and that's what leads to their heart attacks. Bodybuilders eat for size rather than health, eat way too much protein, etc... too much protein is harsher on the kidneys than steroids. Too many carbs and too much protein leads to the insulin response that causes the inflammatory response from the immune system that leads to plaque build up and elevated LDL. Sorry dude, it's the food, and the excess, not the AAS usage that causes what you talk about. This would be why I'm a fitness guy and NOT a bodybuilder. But if someone is just interested in size...then that's their right too...if they want to take the risks that excessive food and less cardiovascular training will lead to, it's not my place to slam them for it.

I've asked you about the human studies with trenbolone before...I've still not seen them. Back it up please???




If my son has a fever or a headache, I give him tylenol or ibuprofen...both of which have many confirmed kills...far more than AAS has been "claimed" to have...actually confirmed. If my son has an infection, I give him an antibiotic, be it naturopathic or prescription, it's still an antibiotic...and still a poison which will have it's own negative effects on the body, some potentially fatal.

So if it was medically indicated, damn right I'd give him steroids under proper medical supervision. If he was an adult and making his own choices...then I'd offer him the best guidance I could, advise him of the risks and the benefits so that he could make an informed decision...then he would make just that...his own informed, educated decision...It's called liberty, something I believe strongly in.

V:you answered me: FOR MEDICAL REASONS YOU GIVE HIM STEROIDS .
No body goes cycling with ibuprofen for cosmetic purposes.
and for others: LDL levels could be high no matter how much you diet , some people have predisposition to high LDL.

 

[hoyle21]

Assuming that was rhetorical, but difficult to resist a good Google...

The World Health Organization reported that approximately 2.5 million die each year of alcohol related causes.

More @ Alcohol kills more than AIDS, TB or violence: WHO

Tobacco? More than 5 million.

Aspirin, Tylenol, or Advil account for 100,000+ deaths while the Center for Disease Control lists deaths associated with AAS as three (one of those from an infection from a dirty syringe).

Really tough to make much of an argument here.