Not looking good for California Prop 8

[Little Wing]

The governments job is not to teach my child what is right/wrong or morally sensible. that is the sole possession of parents and if they choose churches. and nothing in that article said we should sneer or snicker at homosexuals. the opposite actually when it came to how we should treat others.

this is not about the church looking in someones bedroom. that article never said anything about outlawing homosexuality or about judgment of homosexuals. what we are talking about is taking what goes on in the bedroom and now making it public. I dont care what they do in the bedroom, it should stay there. I do not support any legislation or judicial ruling that forces an individual or church to accept a practice that they do not agree with.

you can say it's NOT about whatever you want but the mentality behind this is to deny certain people rights that are afforded to others because you believe you are more entitled to them because of some perceived moral or lifestyle what... difference? superiority? tradition?

female genital mutilation is a tradition should it never be challenged because it has merit simply because well that's how it's always been? yea yea i know it's NOT about FGM.

we live in a different world than our forefathers did and laws need to grow and change to accommodate that. to put blinders on a child is not progress. in any school in the US a child will grow up alongside gay and lesbian peers welcome to the real world, it's not sunday school.

do you want there to be no sex education in schools at all? no discussion of the dynamics of any type of loving union hetero or otherwise? no frank discussion of how babies get here and that some people just don't have any interest in that particular equation... i don't really see any lesson in silence and exclusion besides giving kids a misguided sense of superiority.

i don't see anyone being dragged kicking and screaming off a horse because it was the standard method of transportation in the good old days and all this new fangled automobile shit is ruining our society.

i know it's not about horses but i still smell a lot of horseshit.

well gays can have unions just not legally recognized ones. and you want the government that has no right teaching your kid about morals to back you up on that cuz it's not their job

 

[powerbomb]

you can say it's NOT about whatever you want but the mentality behind this is to deny certain people rights that are afforded to others because you believe you are more entitled to them because of some perceived moral or lifestyle what... difference? superiority? tradition?

female genital mutilation is a tradition should it never be challenged because it has merit simply because well that's how it's always been? yea yea i know it's NOT about FGM.

we live in a different world than our forefathers did and laws need to grow and change to accommodate that. to put blinders on a child is not progress. in any school in the US a child will grow up alongside gay and lesbian peers welcome to the real world, it's not sunday school.

do you want there to be no sex education in schools at all? no discussion of the dynamics of any type of loving union hetero or otherwise? no frank discussion of how babies get here and that some people just don't have any interest in that particular equation... i don't really see any lesson in silence and exclusion besides giving kids a misguided sense of superiority.

i don't see anyone being dragged kicking and screaming off a horse because it was the standard method of transportation in the good old days and all this new fangled automobile shit is ruining our society.

i know it's not about horses but i still smell a lot of horseshit.

well gays can have unions just not legally recognized ones. and you want the government that has no right teaching your kid about morals to back you up on that cuz it's not their job

It's official Little Wing is gay.

 

[tallcall]

And yet, here I sit, unfulfilled.

Get the lotion!

 

[bio-chem]

you can say it's NOT about whatever you want but the mentality behind this is to deny certain people rights that are afforded to others because you believe you are more entitled to them because of some perceived moral or lifestyle what... difference? superiority? tradition?

female genital mutilation is a tradition should it never be challenged because it has merit simply because well that's how it's always been? yea yea i know it's NOT about FGM.

we live in a different world than our forefathers did and laws need to grow and change to accommodate that. to put blinders on a child is not progress. in any school in the US a child will grow up alongside gay and lesbian peers welcome to the real world, it's not sunday school.

do you want there to be no sex education in schools at all? no discussion of the dynamics of any type of loving union hetero or otherwise? no frank discussion of how babies get here and that some people just don't have any interest in that particular equation... i don't really see any lesson in silence and exclusion besides giving kids a misguided sense of superiority.

i don't see anyone being dragged kicking and screaming off a horse because it was the standard method of transportation in the good old days and all this new fangled automobile shit is ruining our society.

i know it's not about horses but i still smell a lot of horseshit.

well gays can have unions just not legally recognized ones. and you want the government that has no right teaching your kid about morals to back you up on that cuz it's not their job

Nice high horse, but its a load of crap.

This has nothing to do with me wanting to deny rights to people. or how i feel entitled to something. This is about protecting my religious beliefs. The threat to a church's religious doctrine was shown in those links. As gay and lesbian marriage becomes more main stream we are going to be having more gender confused children. tell me these children lead a happy life?

as far as sex education goes. a teacher should not be placed in a position to teach children what the definition of a loving union is. period. there should not be a curriculum saying this is the definition that a teacher will present. as dictated by either churches, or the gay/lesbian alliance. Sex education should be rolled into biology and treated as such.

The definition of a loving union should be taught in the home, by parent/s. either gay or strait. It is the parents responsibility to take control of their childs education and determine by what moral standards they wish their children to live. This should not be dictated by either side. The time is not to lower the bar. The time is not to throw open the flood gates because the previous generation did such a fucked up job in the past. The time is to raise the bar.

are you going to tell me you left your childrens sex education to school? bull shit. you are a much more involved parent than that. there is no doubt in my mind that you have had open communication with your children on what you feel is appropriate and they need to know about sex. You have given them the example by your actions and words what you want for them as far as a healthy, loving, sexual relationship. That is what sex education should be for children.

 

[Little Wing]

Nice high horse, but its a load of crap.

touche.

 

[bio-chem]

touche.

 

[Little Wing]

Nice high horse, but its a load of crap.

This has nothing to do with me wanting to deny rights to people. or how i feel entitled to something. This is about protecting my religious beliefs. The threat to a church's religious doctrine was shown in those links. As gay and lesbian marriage becomes more main stream we are going to be having more gender confused children. tell me these children lead a happy life?

as far as sex education goes. a teacher should not be placed in a position to teach children what the definition of a loving union is. period. there should not be a curriculum saying this is the definition that a teacher will present. as dictated by either churches, or the gay/lesbian alliance. Sex education should be rolled into biology and treated as such.

The definition of a loving union should be taught in the home, by parent/s. either gay or strait. It is the parents responsibility to take control of their childs education and determine by what moral standards they wish their children to live. This should not be dictated by either side. The time is not to lower the bar. The time is not to throw open the flood gates because the previous generation did such a fucked up job in the past. The time is to raise the bar.

are you going to tell me you left your childrens sex education to school? bull shit. you are a much more involved parent than that. there is no doubt in my mind that you have had open communication with your children on what you feel is appropriate and they need to know about sex. You have given them the example by your actions and words what you want for them as far as a healthy, loving, sexual relationship. That is what sex education should be for children.

when you do have kids you will learn that they learn more at school from their peers than their teachers. no matter how much you try to shield them they are going to learn the facts of life in the real world. biology causes gender confusion not gay parents. how come so many straight parents have gay kids???

yes i taught my kids about sex, love, relationships but realistically life taught them more. seeing the struggle some of their peers faced for being a square peg in a round world taught them more. i think as far as sex education goes the most important thing they learned from me is i will love them from the bottom of my heart always and all i ask is for them to be true to their own hearts, to be UNASHAMEDLY who they are.

you pose yourself as a person who has compassion for the gender confused all the while being one of the people who think sexuality has to be hammered into some righteous mold of biblically correct proportions or it is WRONG and IMMORAL. all you will accomplish is to make it so if your child is gay they suffer hell on earth feeling they disappointed you and you won't love them if you find out. a child is going to be who they are inside no matter what. it's up to you to decide if you will accept it or try to teach them to be who you want them to be instead.


and MY kids are not the only kids in a classroom that matter to me. they all do. some children aren't being taught anything at home cuz mommy is a crack addicted whore and some of them have no one to say "hey, sometimes people have feelings and desires that don't fit what too many people consider NORMAL but that is an antiquated idea. the truth is it is diversity that is normal". the child with no one has a parent they know will not accept the truth that their child doesn't fit the parent's beliefs of what is acceptable. a child who's parents will try in vain to beat or preach the gay out of them, send them to therapy etc... who simply will not unconditionally love their child.

 

[bio-chem]

when you do have kids you will learn that they learn more at school from their peers than their teachers. no matter how much you try to shield them they are going to learn the facts of life in the real world. biology causes gender confusion not gay parents. how come so many straight parents have gay kids???

yes i taught my kids about sex, love, relationships but realistically life taught them more. seeing the struggle some of their peers faced for being a square peg in a round world taught them more. i think as far as sex education goes the most important thing they learned from me is i will love them from the bottom of my heart always and all i ask is for them to be true to their own hearts, to be UNASHAMEDLY who they are.

you pose yourself as a person who has compassion for the gender confused all the while being one of the people who think sexuality has to be hammered into some righteous mold of biblically correct proportions or it is WRONG and IMMORAL. all you will accomplish is to make it so if your child is gay they suffer hell on earth feeling they disappointed you and you won't love them if you find out. a child is going to be who they are inside no matter what. it's up to you to decide if you will accept it or try to teach them to be who you want them to be instead.


and MY kids are not the only kids in a classroom that matter to me. they all do. some children aren't being taught anything at home cuz mommy is a crack addicted whore and some of them have no one to say "hey, sometimes people have feelings and desires that don't fit what too many people consider NORMAL but that is an antiquated idea. the truth is it is diversity that is normal". the child with no one has a parent they know will not accept the truth that their child doesn't fit the parent's beliefs of what is acceptable. a child who's parents will try in vain to beat or preach the gay out of them, send them to therapy etc... who simply will not unconditionally love their child.

I think you are short changing the impact your teachings and example have on your children. I went through school and know exactly what was learned in the school yard, and what was taught in the class room and what was taught by my parents in my home. guess what? the teachings of my parents are what stuck. and you are right, not all home lifes are ideal. this does not mean we throw out morality all together. On the contrary it means we need it all the more.

If you had actually read the LDS position on homosexuality you would not be saying this crap. I have never once condemned anyone here to hell fire and damnation for homosexuality. dont just assume or lump me in with others.

We need more moral fortitude in this country not less. and im not saying this should be controlled or dictated by the government. but the opposite is also true. we should not allow our government to mandate something that we find against our beliefs.

and biology doesn't play the entire role in this equation. sure there are individuals that grow up in a seemingly great home and deal with these questions in their life. but what is the percentage of children from a home with divorce that grow up and get divorced compared to a home where the parents stayed together in a loving environment? How is it so easy to overlook the statistics that show what the ideal opportunity for happiness and success are? will every situation be like that? no, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it.

If we recognize something as more effective we as a people should do all we can to attain/work toward that standard. not say "it is too difficult, we should change the standard so anyone can reach it"

 

[Little Wing]

It's official Little Wing is gay.

no. but it makes me feel profoundly sad and literally nauseous that some people think it's ok to tell a child you are not entitled to the same privileges
as the rest of us because we don't approve of your sexual preference.

and it certainly IS a civil rights issue.

 

[Little Wing]

I think you are short changing the impact your teachings and example have on your children. I went through school and know exactly what was learned in the school yard, and what was taught in the class room and what was taught by my parents in my home. guess what? the teachings of my parents are what stuck. and you are right, not all home lifes are ideal. this does not mean we throw out morality all together. On the contrary it means we need it all the more.

If you had actually read the LDS position on homosexuality you would not be saying this crap. I have never once condemned anyone here to hell fire and damnation for homosexuality. dont just assume or lump me in with others.

We need more moral fortitude in this country not less. and im not saying this should be controlled or dictated by the government. but the opposite is also true. we should not allow our government to mandate something that we find against our beliefs.

and biology doesn't play the entire role in this equation. sure there are individuals that grow up in a seemingly great home and deal with these questions in their life. but what is the percentage of children from a home with divorce that grow up and get divorced compared to a home where the parents stayed together in a loving environment? How is it so easy to overlook the statistics that show what the ideal opportunity for happiness and success are? will every situation be like that? no, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it.

If we recognize something as more effective we as a people should do all we can to attain/work toward that standard. not say "it is too difficult, we should change the standard so anyone can reach it"

homosexuality is not a lack of moral fortitude

every couple in this country that so desires to should have the right to marry for love. period.

all the kids in a classroom deserve to be treated as equals and the things taught there should exclude no one nor make them feel in any way inferior to their peers.

 

[bio-chem]

homosexuality is not a lack of moral fortitude

every couple in this country that so desires to should have the right to marry for love. period.

what about a plurality of couples who want to get married? polygamy anyone?

There is a reason that 30 states have passed ammendments in favor of marriage, and it is not that the majority of americans are bigoted nazis who want to repress homosexuals.

 

[Little Wing]

what about a plurality of couples who want to get married? polygamy anyone?

There is a reason that 30 states have passed ammendments in favor of marriage, and it is not that the majority of americans are bigoted nazis who want to repress homosexuals.

well do you want the government to set policies for churches or not? or only churches that disagree with yours?

 

[bio-chem]

well do you want the government to set policies for churches or not? or only churches that disagree with yours?

you are going to have to explain what you are trying to say, im not seeing it. sorry.

 

[Little Wing]

i believe in the rights of individuals. i believe in freedom of religion. i do not believe in forcing others to live by your faith or lack thereof.

if people are doing something that causes no harm to anyone let them alone. moral indignation that others are not following the dictates of your church is not harm.

 

[Little Wing]

i honestly feel that a lot of society's crappy decline is due to mother's seeking work outside the home instead of staying home and actually being mothers. that the American family would be better served if kids were raised by their parents and not day care centers, babysitters, and shitty school systems. in my mind it is a fact that children would be better off with her home, that society has been harmed by the trend of mothers working outside the home....

but do i have the right to tell other women they cannot work for 18 years once they decide to have a child?

 

[bio-chem]

i believe in the rights of individuals. i believe in freedom of religion. i do not believe in forcing others to live by your faith or lack thereof.

if people are doing something that causes no harm to anyone let them alone. moral indignation that others are not following the dictates of your church is not harm.

thats not what this is about. im not going out to try and pass an anti-sodomy law here. I'm not doing anything to encroach on what they are doing in the bedroom.

 

[DOMS]

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it again.

I've talked to some religious people about Prop 8.

The reason that it passed, even in the liberal heaven that is Cali, was due to the actions of some gays.

Gays that had the right to be married sued religious institutions that didn't want to perform the ceremony. Causing some of them to lose their exempt status.

It wasn't enough that they could marry, they wanted to force people who didn't agree with them to perform the act.

So prop 8 passed. A few assholes ruined it for the rest.

 

[bio-chem]

Gays that had the right to be married sued religious institutions that didn't want to perform the ceremony. Causing some of them to lose their exempt status.

It wasn't enough that they could marry, they wanted to force people who didn't agree with them to perform the act.

but its the religious right that is trampling everyones rights?

Good post DOMS. Despite the provided links that show this is what was going on, those fighting it have seemed to overlook it.

 

[DOMS]

but its the religious right that is trampling everyones rights?

Good post DOMS. Despite the provided links that show this is what was going on, those fighting it have seemed to overlook it.

It's like racism, they like to believe that only whites are capable of it. They don't want to believe that gays would push their lifestyle on others.

I don't think that many gays do that. After all, who wants to get married by someone that doesn't like you? Like I said, a few assholes ruined it for rest.

On a side note, I just realized how much innuendo one can find that last statement.

 

[bio-chem]

On a side note, I just realized how much innuendo one can find that last statement.

LOL

 

[Little Wing]

thats not what this is about. im not going out to try and pass an anti-sodomy law here. I'm not doing anything to encroach on what they are doing in the bedroom.

i meant gays marrying causes no real harm to anyone.

 

[Little Wing]

who wants to get married by someone that doesn't like you?

good question. wouldn't be my choice for a happy memorable day.

 

[bio-chem]

i meant gays marrying causes no real harm to anyone.

whether you want to accept it or not. Gays marrying will have an impact.

 

[DOMS]

i meant gays marrying causes no real harm to anyone.

Liar.

It causes harm to the gays.

 

[Little Wing]

whether you want to accept it or not. Gays marrying will have an impact.

your perseverance in this thread is matched only by my tenacity in advocating for the civil rights of my fellow man.

 

[DOMS]

your perseverance in this thread is matched only by my tenacity in advocating for the civil rights of my fellow man.

You didn't answer his question (or I was too lazy to read it), so what's your take on plural marriage? Yay or nay?

 

[tucker01]

depends.... polygamy a choice.

Personally i don't think sexual preference is a choice.

 

[ZECH]

Gender confusion? Come on, you can do better than that. That is a lame excuse. Again, what two people do doesn't matter to me. But when you say they have to have rights, does bother me.

 

[DOMS]

depends.... polygamy a choice.

Personally i don't think sexual preference is a choice.

Wait, are you implying that gay marriage should be okay but not polygamous marriage?

Hey, don't lay your conservative viewpoint down on me!

 

[Little Wing]

You didn't answer his question (or I was too lazy to read it), so what's your take on plural marriage? Yay or nay?

it wouldn't work for me but some families seem to function just fine this way. and honestly it doesn't have any impact on my life. growing up we lived by these two families... everyone knew both rita and dot were richard's women, their houses were like 100 feet apart, both had kids by him, they all got along fine, and he worked and supported both households. it had no impact on us at all, we all still chose monogamy and so did the kids they raised. was just this family that we knew that did things a different way. no big deal.