overtraining on purpose what do you think

[Johnnny]

Saturday Fever

1) That is Phil Harrington. He lifts exclusively with heavy weights and low reps. Always has. He holds the world record for squats for 181lb lifters at over 838 pounds.

2) if 4 sets of 6 is high reps, then it's safe to say one can lift heavy and do high reps. According to Prilepin, 4 sets of 6 (24 reps) is optimal when lifting in the 70% of 1RM range. I deadlift 600lb. If I do 4 sets of 6 with 420lb, I'm lifting heavy and according to you for high reps.

Well I've never heard of him. Like I said it looks as though he has trained in the 2-4 rep range with heavy weights for a long time to get the size he has in the picture.

I would've been able to judge better if I'd known his height, weight/body type & the way he looked before he performed his first ever lift long ago I would've been able to judge better on how he trains.

I even see some big body builders doing really light weights with higher reps whether some of them are on juice I don't know, but I know for a fact that they must've lifted heavy with low reps. But it seems from their training that they don't want the bulkiness with their size. A couple of big tall guys at my gym only use machines & the light version of the smith macine & they don't go very heavy. Look wise they are very lean & not overly bulky.

 

[nikegurl]

all i can say is good thing Phil isn't a woman. if he were...and he trained heavy in those rep ranges he's be green and busting out of his clothes.

 

[Johnnny]

nikegurl Phil does train in the heavy weight low rep range.

But like I said I don't know what his body weight was way back in the day before he picked up his first barbell so I was taking a rough guess by looking at him & I wasn't far off.

Some women & men lift heavy for a certain number of years before they realize or are satisfied with their body & then alter their training to just maintain & stay lean.

 

[JLB001]

Originally posted by ballerina
is it possible to shrink leg muscles by overtraining them? For example, if one was to train legs moderately 3-4 times per week and do cardio/stairs after would they shrink. I notice that long distance runners have little bulkiness in their legs. Maybe lots of running would help? My legs are starting to get too muscular but my trainer says it takes time. any opinions...not that i don't like muscles but my legs look like turnips...you know the outer sweep thing is more than i would like to have Thanks

Back to the topic....Try sprints and the stairs/bleechers, it will lean them out and give them a good overall shape without being bulky.

 

[Twin Peak]

In addition to the proliferation of general nonesense that everyone has already beaten to death I must add:

2-4 reps is (in general) no where close to being ideal for hypertrophy.

 

[Johnnny]

Ballerina Do plenty of cardio as JLB001 said, maybe cut down on calories depending on your current diet. Things should start developing the way you want.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I stole this from T-mag. I only took the pertinent stuff.

They had 24 subjects undergo an endurance program over a period of 15 weeks. At the end of the study, muscle biopsies revealed a significant gain in the percentage of type I endurance muscle fiber qualities with a subsequent decrease in type IIB fiber qualities (1).

Studies with endurance-training protocols demonstrated a decrease in size of aerobically-trained myofibrils. In other words, continuous aerobic training will decrease the size of the trained muscle fibers! The body forces the fibers to become smaller and thinner to achieve better perfusion (nutrient transfer) within the fibers (2). That's good for endurance, but very bad for hypertrophy.

1. Simoneau, J.A. , G. Lortie, M.R. Bonlay, C.M. Marcotte, M.C. Thibault, and C. Bouchard. Human skeletal muscle fibre type alteration with high-intensity intermittent training. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 54:250-253, 1985.

2. Goldspink G. The proliferation of myofibrils during muscle fibre growth. J. Cell Sci. 6:593-603, 1970.



This would suggest long duration cardio would be your solution. It also suggests that by training in the higher rep range you could change intermediate "power" fibers into "endurance" fibers which have a poorer aptitude for growth. At the very least, current research has shown that you can change between "intermediate" and "full" power fibers by altering rep range which in and of itself supports the notion that different rep ranges will yield different results, diet held as constant. I have oversimplified this to make sure everyone understands the material, it is actually much more complicated than this.

Wang N, Hikida RS, Staron RS, Simoneau JA.
Muscle fiber types of women after resistance training--quantitative ultrastructure and enzyme activity. Pflugers Arch. 1993 Sep;424(5-6):494-502.

Department of Biological Sciences, Ohio University, Athens 45701.

 

[Johnnny]

Dale Mabry

I stole this from T-mag. I only took the pertinent stuff.

They had 24 subjects undergo an endurance program over a period of 15 weeks. At the end of the study, muscle biopsies revealed a significant gain in the percentage of type I endurance muscle fiber qualities with a subsequent decrease in type IIB fiber qualities (1).

Studies with endurance-training protocols demonstrated a decrease in size of aerobically-trained myofibrils. In other words, continuous aerobic training will decrease the size of the trained muscle fibers! The body forces the fibers to become smaller and thinner to achieve better perfusion (nutrient transfer) within the fibers (2). That's good for endurance, but very bad for hypertrophy.

1. Simoneau, J.A. , G. Lortie, M.R. Bonlay, C.M. Marcotte, M.C. Thibault, and C. Bouchard. Human skeletal muscle fibre type alteration with high-intensity intermittent training. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 54:250-253, 1985.

2. Goldspink G. The proliferation of myofibrils during muscle fibre growth. J. Cell Sci. 6:593-603, 1970.



This would suggest long duration cardio would be your solution. It also suggests that by training in the higher rep range you could change intermediate "power" fibers into "endurance" fibers which have a poorer aptitude for growth. At the very least, current research has shown that you can change between "intermediate" and "full" power fibers by altering rep range which in and of itself supports the notion that different rep ranges will yield different results, diet held as constant. I have oversimplified this to make sure everyone understands the material, it is actually much more complicated than this.

Wang N, Hikida RS, Staron RS, Simoneau JA.
Muscle fiber types of women after resistance training--quantitative ultrastructure and enzyme activity. Pflugers Arch. 1993 Sep;424(5-6):494-502.

Department of Biological Sciences, Ohio University, Athens 45701.

Very helpful information, thank you.

 

[JLB001]

Sprints and running stairs are a totally different form of cardio, not anywhere close to a treadmill or ellipitcal. The stopping and starting of the sprints changes the legs and the way they are shaped, these are hard to do on a treadmill.

 

[Dale Mabry]

HIIT has been shown to INCREASE hypertrophy, however.

 

[DrChiro]

Ok...i had a client just like you when i was a personal trainer.
she was a cheerleader all her life and the cardio and jumps just put on bulk to her legs (a muscular toned look that i like but that wasnt appealing to her)

she was an interesting case because no matter what we did her legs got bigger....high reap, low rep, HIT, extra cardio....the only thing that finally worked was to stop training legs all together and just do some rope jumping.....we kept her butt toned with some of the old floor exercises (fire hydrants and leg kick backs).

I guess the answer is that you have to try it all and see what works for you....pilates and yoga are good ways to stay toned and not increase mass.

I would avoid overtraining as this can mead to injury and mess with your hormone levels as well. You may want to decrease the amount of protein you consume if you are getting a high amount....this may cause atrophy.

If you want to go the rug route.....ask your doctor for cytomel...it is a thyroid drug that will lead to weight loss and is notorius for burning up muscle. I do advise that if you go this route...only do so under your doctor's supervision.

 

[Johnnny]

DrChiro

Ok...i had a client just like you when i was a personal trainer.
she was a cheerleader all her life and the cardio and jumps just put on bulk to her legs (a muscular toned look that i like but that wasnt appealing to her)

She obviously had the genetics for big legs when it came to training.

I was just curious for a man, not speaking for myself but for a 50yr old friend of my father who still has good muscle mass & strength, does cardio & diet well he is mostly just trying to maintain & stay lean. But for some reason with all the cardio & dieting he does, he just can't seem to get rid of the last 10lbs from his stomach (well everywhere you know what I mean) that he gained during his 40's.

I over heard my father & this guy & his wife talking about getting him on Windsor Pilates since you mention Windsor Pilates.
Do you think that Windsor Pilates will do a better job getting rid of his small remaining stomach as opposed to his already hard training, good diet & sprints for cardio?

 

[JLB001]

Damn Johnnny you ease drop alot.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Absolutely not. His issue is related to diet, Johnny.

 

[Jodi]

Damn I missed a good thread yesterday.

Personally, to lean out my legs, I prefer doing it strength training style - 4 reps, heavy weight.

 

[DrChiro]

austinite...let me explain some of JLB001's comments.

of course if you are going close to your max (85-90%), the amout of reps you can get is going to be limited...that is a given.

Jodie trains heavy all the time....and for some reason even when she pyramids up in weight she can still crank out 12-15 reps at about 80% of her max.....that is damn impressive. In all my years of lifting and training i have never seen anyone able to this except Jodie...just a testament to the fact that EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT (like jodie said).

as far as general rules go....there are certainly some methods that seem to work for most people depending on their goals....certaily try these tested methods first....but if you dont get the results you want dont keep following a plan that doesnt work...get creative.

 

[austinite]

Originally posted by DrChiro
austinite...let me explain some of JLB001's comments.

of course if you are going close to your max (85-90%), the amout of reps you can get is going to be limited...that is a given.

Jodie trains heavy all the time....and for some reason even when she pyramids up in weight she can still crank out 12-15 reps at about 80% of her max.....

I think she explained herself pretty well, doc.

I would still respectfully suggest that if she can do 12-15 reps at 80%, to re-check her 1 rep max because it is probably a lot higher that she thinks or else she wouldn't be able to do that many.

Which would mean what she is calling 80% is actually 70 or 60%.

 

[JLB001]

OMG...can I just beat my head against the wall here?

I think with Craig's knowledge in lifting and training other people he knows what he is talking about. He's been training with me for the past 1 1/2 years, he knows my lifts and what I do very well. My 80% is not 60 to 70%, its sad when I can outlift alot of the guys in the gym. Maybe they need to put the girlie weights away and start lifting like a boy.

Sitting two weeks out, my lifts have just now started to come down some and this is on a diet of 1200 calories a day, plus cardio 2 x a day. In fact before this week, all my lifts have gone up plus I have some added muscle size that I have gained all while dieting. I know my body and I know what I am able to do and not do.

 

[Johnnny]

JLB001 it is spelled Eavesdropping & no I'm giving my insight on the subject as you are.

 

[JLB001]

LOL... sorry about the spelling. It was never my best subject in school.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Those percentage charts are way off for me as well. I used to guesstimate my 1rm from my 4rm, but when I would put what my calculated 1rm was, I would still generally be able to do 10-20lbs heavier than that.

 

[Johnnny]

Ballerina back to the subject on hand I wouldn't advise over training on purpose as you'll burn yourself out eventually.

Keep your diet in check. Do about 20-40mins of cardio average of 4 times a week. Rest on your off days.

One thing that might help take away the bulkiness is spending more time on stretching your legs in more than one way maybe 10-20mins several times a week.

 

[DrChiro]

yeah thats it...get on the stairmaster 4 times a week and see how much smaller your legs get....i'm so sure that will work....when they get even bigger than they are now make sure you tell Johnny thanks.

 

[Saturday Fever]

If you don't train for a 1RM (ie like a powerlifter) then how can you accurately judge what is 80%. I'm not knocking anyone, just posing the question. If you never workout in a way that is intended to train and improve your 1RM, then you absolutely cannot accurately say "this is 80%." Because even if you dropped your usual routine and attempted a 1RM, it would not be a true 1RM because you did not train up to it. Your CNS will be a huge limiting factor. Just food for thought, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.

 

[DrChiro]

austinite...i am pretty sure our #'s are accurate....we keep very detailed records of Jodie's lifts...and it's not like I am new at this.

IMO....Jodie has a very balanced blend of type I and type II muscle fibers giving her increased rep ranges even when her weights are higher.

We have hit her true max in various lifts.....especially bench press where she has only gotten one true rep.....so I know what the percentages are...not just by using some chart.

by just dropping a little bit of weight off her one rep max (maybe 10 pounds off the bench)...all of a sudden she is crankin out 12 reps.....it is freaky.

only time i have ever seen it...so i guess i would be as skeptical as you are if i were in your shoes....but trust me.....it is what it is.

 

[Saturday Fever]

by just dropping a little bit of weight off her one rep max (maybe 10 pounds off the bench)...all of a sudden she is crankin out 12 reps.....it is freaky.

Like I said, that is not her rue 1RM because she does not train her 1RM per her posts and yours.

 

[DrChiro]

saturday...i agree with you...and we dont use the percentages consistently because you are right...we are not powerlifters.

CNS does play a huge factor in the lifts and actually where as most people are forced to decrease their weights as a result of a contest diet...Jodie's poundages have gone up considerably.

I attribute this to her focus on the goal of the show.....showing that the CNS can really influence your lifts.

now we are 2 weeks out and finally she is noticing some weaker than normal lifts...but for the preceeding 12 weeks....all she has done is gone UP in weight.

 

[Saturday Fever]

Her dedication is very apparent. I'm sure she'll do very well in her show. Best of luck to you both.

 

[DrChiro]

damn.....i train with her...i know what the hell she does...damn.
it is impossible to get an accurate 1 rep max...there are too many variables at any given time to say..this is for sure my best lift right now!

but we have attempted it....even if we didnt post it....we just did it for our own benefit....so as close as we were able to come is the # we use.....but we dont put much weight (no pun intended)...on that # because it is so variable.

we simply use the overload principle....making sure that each week we increase our poundages when we arent so close to a contest.

 

[DrChiro]

saturday.....obviously from the #'s posted as your signature, you are a powerlifter....and i know how important the #'s and percentages are for you guys....i have many friends who were powerlifters.

as a bodybuilder they arent as importnat......at least not IMO as long as from week to week you see your lifts going up.

thank you for the good wishes in the show....the same to you in your next meet.