Questions about cardio,

[Built]

danzik is referring to research I'm doing on satiety. Males and females - in general - have different satiety responses to food, and the obese have different satiety responses than lean, never-fat individuals.

Very briefly, the archetypal female satiety pattern is "protein and fat, with soluble fibre", where for males it is "protein and volume, with starchy and fibrous carbs".

The fatter we are, the more "female" our satiety responses are. And in the obese, the satiety due to the insulin response is impaired. Combine this with insulin resistance and hypersecretion of insulin, and you'll find that for many of us current and former fatties, a low-fat, complex "clean" carb diet is so hunger-inducing as to be intolerable.

Dieted down obese may never share satiety cues with those who are never fat. Many of us who have lost the weight must change our patterns of consumption toward protein and fat in order to maintain the loss.

In my case, for example, to maintain 140lbs (I was 170 and about 40% bodyfat back in 2001) I require about 2200 calories.

At maintenance, a comfortable diet for me is roughly this:
200-220g protein
80-100g fat
100-160g carb
25+g fibre

Hardly the Canada food guide, but it works for me.

 

[gigaplex]

The example diet I described in about 6 lines is not meant to be the end all, be all, pinnacle of perfection. It is an example though of what people have commonly used that have not had hunger problems doing cardio. For different people it might be modified.

Now I'm curious, of the people you say you somehow know for sure would be hungry all the time on a diet like this, how many have you seen actually do a diet like this eating 5-6 times a day, doing that macro ratio, and doing all these pieces together at the same time? If you don't normally recommend some of these things then it just seems like most of the people you see would not be doing all these different elements at the same time.

Just to be clear here, part of the rationale for eating 5-6 meals a day is satiety. Insulin levels will be more stable. If a person ever gets hungry, they know that the next meal is only an hour or so away. There are perhaps other reasons as well. Seems like this could only help.

Your research sounds interesting. So by satiety pattern, you are meaning this is the type of thing that you feel satisfies their hunger the best?

 

[Built]

The example diet I described in about 6 lines is not meant to be the end all, be all, pinnacle of perfection. It is an example though of what people have commonly used that have not had hunger problems doing cardio. For different people it might be modified.

Now I'm curious, of the people you say you somehow know for sure would be hungry all the time on a diet like this, how many have you seen actually do a diet like this eating 5-6 times a day, doing that macro ratio, and doing all these pieces together at the same time?

LOTS. I was one of them.
Gigaplex, you don???t know my background. You parachuted in here because you saw Venuto's book being flogged and thought you had found "family". There are many people for whom this approach does not feel comfortable - but it is the past and current industry standard with regard to physical culture. For many of us, it was so uncomfortable we simply gave up. For those of you for whom the low-fat, six meals a day with cardio cut feels comfortable, this sounds like I just had an alien pop out of my stomach while speaking backwards, but it's true.

If you don't normally recommend some of these things then it just seems like most of the people you see would not be doing all these different elements at the same time.

Yeah, they would. I was one of 'em, there are plenty of others here who tried it and couldn't stick to it.

Just to be clear here, part of the rationale for eating 5-6 meals a day is satiety. Insulin levels will be more stable. If a person ever gets hungry, they know that the next meal is only an hour or so away. There are perhaps other reasons as well. Seems like this could only help.

I do better when I avoid breakfast, try to avoid eating as much as possible until later in the day, then cram most of my food into the end of the day, going to bed on a full stomach.

Your research sounds interesting. So by satiety pattern, you are meaning this is the type of thing that you feel satisfies their hunger the best?

Yes.

 

[gigaplex]

LOTS. I was one of them.
Gigaplex, you don???t know my background. You parachuted in here because you saw Venuto's book being flogged and thought you had found "family".

lol. Actually, my initial intent was just to ask a question about HIIT. I wasn't totally set on this forum and rather just thought it looked promising at first glance. I have questions from time to time and was looking for a forum to occasionally ask a question like this and as a matter of exchange help a few other people out if I can. And yes, this forurm caught my eye because Venuto's book was on a sticky. I don't really see anything wrong with that. As to your background, no I don't know it, that is why I was asking about it.

I am sorry you are annoyed with me but I am just not the type of person that will automatically believe without question everything a person says just because they are the moderator or leader or have been doing it longer or are part of the government or wear a special hat. And if I am in a conversation where something is said that I disagree with, I am likely to speak up. I understand there are ego issues with this as a moderator must maintain a certain image and if people disagree with or question the moderator then they may be afraid of how that looks. But if that's really a problem, why not make a rule that no one can disagree with you, especially new people and then kick me and everyone else out that disobeys? You're the one with the ban hammer I assume.

But really, if you're going to deviate from the standard and try and break new ground, you should expect people to be skeptical and ask questions and debate and so on. It's really an essential process. What if new or different ideas were never challenged or questioned or debated? Is that really what you want? I haven't really engaged in an unreasonable line of questioning. Maybe others had similar questions and concerns but were not voicing them because god forbid anyone disagree with the moderator.

There are many people for whom this approach does not feel comfortable - but it is the past and current industry standard with regard to physical culture. For many of us, it was so uncomfortable we simply gave up. For those of you for whom the low-fat, six meals a day with cardio cut feels comfortable, this sounds like I just had an alien pop out of my stomach while speaking backwards, but it's true.

Yeah, they would. I was one of 'em, there are plenty of others here who tried it and couldn't stick to it.

I do better when I avoid breakfast, try to avoid eating as much as possible until later in the day, then cram most of my food into the end of the day, going to bed on a full stomach.

Yes.

I would definitely be interested in seeing a typical menu and list of the training you were doing when you had these hunger problems if you would post it. It's not like I am completely closed off to the idea that someone could have this kind of unsolveable problem with hunger, I just don't think it is so many people and such a big issue as to tell everyone doing a cut to drop cardio - just seems like a wild overreaction.

Regardless, there are clearly people that can solve the hunger problem with diet. There's a reason why that ratio became the industry standard. There's a reason why foods high in water content and/or fiber content typically show up at the top of satiety index lists in studies. Obviously, there is at least a significant portion of the population that can solve this hunger problem with diet. So do you tell those people not to do cardio? How far do you take this anti-cardio view? Because if you tell people that don't have the hunger problem not to do cardio, then you could keep them from losing that extra pound of fat each month. Sure there's also the issue of whether or not they can keep their muscle while doing this but if they are not losing muscle or are losing very little, I don't see the problem.

 

[Marat]

I am sorry you are annoyed with me but I am just not the type of person that will automatically believe without question everything a person says just because they are the moderator or leader or have been doing it longer or are part of the government or wear a special hat. And if I am in a conversation where something is said that I disagree with, I am likely to speak up. I understand there are ego issues with this as a moderator must maintain a certain image and if people disagree with or question the moderator then they may be afraid of how that looks. But if that's really a problem, why not make a rule that no one can disagree with you, especially new people and then kick me and everyone else out that disobeys? You're the one with the ban hammer I assume.

But really, if you're going to deviate from the standard and try and break new ground, you should expect people to be skeptical and ask questions and debate and so on. It's really an essential process. What if new or different ideas were never challenged or questioned or debated? Is that really what you want? I haven't really engaged in an unreasonable line of questioning. Maybe others had similar questions and concerns but were not voicing them because god forbid anyone disagree with the moderator.

Please, enough with the nonsense. Your attacks and rhetorical questions are neither necessary or thought provoking. We are all adults here.

We do expect new posters to question our recommendations, especially when they are different from what is considered 'common knowledge'.

We welcome your questions but ask that you welcome our answers and cut out the disrespectful tirades.

 

[Built]

lol. Actually, my initial intent was just to ask a question about HIIT. I wasn't totally set on this forum and rather just thought it looked promising at first glance. I have questions from time to time and was looking for a forum to occasionally ask a question like this and as a matter of exchange help a few other people out if I can. And yes, this forurm caught my eye because Venuto's book was on a sticky. I don't really see anything wrong with that. As to your background, no I don't know it, that is why I was asking about it.

I am sorry you are annoyed with me but I am just not the type of person that will automatically believe without question everything a person says just because they are the moderator or leader or have been doing it longer or are part of the government or wear a special hat. And if I am in a conversation where something is said that I disagree with, I am likely to speak up. I understand there are ego issues with this as a moderator must maintain a certain image and if people disagree with or question the moderator then they may be afraid of how that looks. But if that's really a problem, why not make a rule that no one can disagree with you, especially new people and then kick me and everyone else out that disobeys? You're the one with the ban hammer I assume.

Um, huh?

I was actually being uncharacteristically nice to you because I felt sorry for you; I could see that you were being laughed at and felt the need to try to defend you a bit. You're such a newb to this stuff, and you really think you know a great deal because you've read Venuto's book and paid to belong to the "inner circle", I figured if I let the rest of the board shoot you down you'd just turn around and run, and never learn anything.

Your saving grace is the fact that you've set about doing something to change your own destiny. That's why I didn't just rip you a new one when you first started mouthing off at me.

But really, if you're going to deviate from the standard and try and break new ground, you should expect people to be skeptical and ask questions and debate and so on.

Here, on this forum, it is YOU who deviates from the standard. You're stuck in a very old paradigm and clearly have not had benefit of recent (read: stuff we've known since at least '97, such as the "frequent feeding" thing is a myth) information.

Most of us here (I include myself) began this process with "carbs in the AM, cardio for fat loss, six meals a day, no carbs at night" blah blah blah and managed to do enough additional reading to bring ourselves up to speed.

You will too - you're just not there yet.

I'm not dissing you, okay? Well, I am a little but I went though this myself when my doctor put me on Atkins. I though he was SATAN for recommending such an "unhealthy" diet, but it was the best piece of advice anyone had ever given me up to that point. It worked - I lost forty pounds, dropped my cholesterol, got off Metformin and felt GOOD for the first time in my life - and it launched me into a whole new way of thinking about diet and training, not to mention health.

It's really an essential process. What if new or different ideas were never challenged or questioned or debated? Is that really what you want? I haven't really engaged in an unreasonable line of questioning. Maybe others had similar questions and concerns but were not voicing them because god forbid anyone disagree with the moderator.

Read what I wrote above. Then read it again.

I would definitely be interested in seeing a typical menu and list of the training you were doing when you had these hunger problems if you would post it. It's not like I am completely closed off to the idea that someone could have this kind of unsolveable problem with hunger, I just don't think it is so many people and such a big issue as to tell everyone doing a cut to drop cardio - just seems like a wild overreaction.

I do SOME cardio. Just not much. I go for the odd walk, ride my bike occasionally, go for the odd hike up the Stawamus Chief??? I just don't rely upon it for fat loss.

I was obese when I ran 10k 3x a week. I ate no white anything, low-fat, high-protein. Whole grains at each of my six daily meals. Eggwhites and multigrain toast with no butter for breakfast.

Got me to 40% bodyfat. I had to stop running because my feet hurt so much. I had plantar fasciitis, had to wear orthotics. Hips, back, knees all hurt. It was pretty bad. I stuck to this through most of my thirties though. <shudders>

I had tried to diet similarly through other periods of my life, doing cardio classes and weight-training at the gym, just like the other fat ladies.

Didn't work then either.

I also tried diet pills on a number of occasions. <rolls eyes>

Regardless, there are clearly people that can solve the hunger problem with diet.

I can't solve it - I'm working on it but I can't. I manage to keep hunger down to a dull roar at best.

There's a reason why that ratio became the industry standard.

Yep. Skinny eighteen year old men find it easier to overeat on six meals a day than three. They got used to recommending this so it just became standard. Combined with earlier research that showed that the body heats up in response to meals, there was an erroneous assumption that frequent feeding speeds metabolism.

Sadly, this turned out to be false - when you eat a small meal, you heat up a bit. When you eat a large meal, you heat up a lot.

Thus, the "six meals a day" paradigm fell flat. Eat that way if you like, it won't hurt you - it just won't help either, not simply because of frequency.

There's a reason why foods high in water content and/or fiber content typically show up at the top of satiety index lists in studies.

Yep, most research on satiety was initially done on young, male college athletes, and on people who had never been fat. On females, the obese, dieted down obese, or dieting-down overweight people, the results aren't as clear.

They become less clear for women on oral contraceptives, which suppress testosterone (almost completely, in fact), slow thyroid function, induce insulin resistance and can ultimately lead to type II diabetes. This really throughs a wrench in things. Good thing these women were excluded as research subjects, hey?

Obviously, there is at least a significant portion of the population that can solve this hunger problem with diet. So do you tell those people not to do cardio?

I tell people looking to lose weight to do so through diet.

How far do you take this anti-cardio view?

Far enough to publish not just one, but TWO articles on cardio.
How to do cardio if you must | Wannabebig
Daredevils are Shredded

Because if you tell people that don't have the hunger problem not to do cardio, then you could keep them from losing that extra pound of fat each month.

Or they could simply eat a hundred fewer calories per day, right?

Sure there's also the issue of whether or not they can keep their muscle while doing this but if they are not losing muscle or are losing very little, I don't see the problem.

Put it this way - an overweight person looking to lean out needs to look first at diet, then at lifting, and wayyyy down the list at a little cardio. I actually recommend and perform more cardio for bulking or maintaining than for cutting. Why? Because I eat more carbohydrate then, and modest activity helps translocate GLUT4, which improves muscle insulin sensitivity. Good for reglycogenation - basically helps me fake better genes, since insulin resistance is of course associated with leptin resistance. In obesity, leptin is high but the body fails to recognize it. A little modest activity helps reduce insulin output and improves glucose uptake - so if you're going to go for a walk, do it right after dinner, or perhaps while sipping your post workout dextrose and whey shake.

 

[gigaplex]

Please, enough with the nonsense. Your attacks and rhetorical questions are neither necessary or thought provoking. We are all adults here.

We do expect new posters to question our recommendations, especially when they are different from what is considered 'common knowledge'.

We welcome your questions but ask that you welcome our answers and cut out the disrespectful tirades.

Well since I'm being mocked/degraded with the whole "parachuted in looking for 'family'" crap I thought it was necessary to point out what I pointed out. You're right though, I probably should have just ignored it.

 

[Built]

Well since I'm being mocked/degraded with the whole "parachuted in looking for 'family'" crap ...

I wasn't mocking you.

You said you used to belong to the Venuto inner circle thing and that you joined here because you saw that his book was featured. I'm sure you came here with the understanding that most bodybuilders eat and train that way.

They probably do. Just not so much here, not anymore at least.

 

[danzik17]

Well since I'm being mocked/degraded with the whole "parachuted in looking for 'family'" crap I thought it was necessary to point out what I pointed out. You're right though, I probably should have just ignored it.

I have an absurdly simple way of solving this. Go buy one of Lyle's books and read it. The ridiculous amount of peer reviewed research and studies that he uses as references should be more than enough to convince you of what we are trying to say if you don't want to take our word for it.

 

[jmorrison]

If you LOVE doing cardio, do it.

It isn't necessary for cutting, it doesn't burn that many calories, it does nothing to speed up metabolism after you're done, and it can - as you lean out - contribute to muscle loss.

Built. When you say things like that it hurts my feelings. I HATE cardio, but can't stop doing it because I feel like a worthless fatbody if I don't.

Don't ruin my mental masturbation.

On a lighter note, I did a carb up last night. Is it wrong to almost be physically aroused by mashed potatoes? If so...I don't want to be right.

 

[Built]

Mashed potatoes are proof of God's love.

 

[Marat]

Just dunked my fork into some mashed potatoes with heavy cream and butter and cheddar cheese that I just cooked up. Cheers to it.

 

[jmorrison]

Maybe a bit off topic, but a question in regards to HIIT vs SS. I have gone to doing HIIT twice a week, with SS twice a week.

I can't believe how fast I am leaning out, made a huge difference, but I have one problem. On my HIIT days I am so hungry that I am almost angry. Is this normal? Am I hitting it too hard?

When I read M11's post about the creamy potatoes my mouth literally started watering. My stomach feels like an angry midget with a vendetta if you can understand that.

Should I up the calories on HIIT days?

 

[Built]

HIIT can and does stimulate appetite for some of us. You may wish to eat a bit more - or differently - on days when you do HIIT.

 

[gigaplex]

To be fair, I probably did get a little confrontational at the post where I realized you were advocating people go on 50%+ deficits as at that point, I had lost all faith that this forum was anything different than the screwed up forums I had come across previously. Since that post I have come across things you've said that I have found interesting and you certainly don't seem like an idiot even though I do still disagree with you on some things. So I have regained hope (not that anyone would care).

But seriously, what do you expect? I mean we've got this sticky over there praising Venuto's book saying it will be the last book on diet you ever read, which I don't really even agree with but hey I did think it was good. So you've got that and then over here in actual forum conversations basically everything in the book is ignored, disputed or in many cases THE EXACT OPPOSITE is done. I mean seriously, you guys are asking for it. At least update the friggin' sticky. You are lured in by Venuto and then dog-piled instantly by nearly everyone. It's a trap!

Now another thing I need to clarify. I have been into this stuff for less than two years. I am not an expert. I do not compete professionally. Most of what I know is from the BFFM book. I do not think that I am an expert or that I "know so much". On the contrary, I have TONS to learn and have only really begun. I had thought that all this was totally clear as I did not hide any info about me, my progress and my study. It was not my intention to come off like some kind of know-it-all expert. Still, I don't agree with everything I see in this forum and it doesn't seem likely that I will agree with everything on this forum.

Also, I do not see the BFFM book as the word of God (btw, the sticky calls it the Bible) and do understand that it is starting to get old. Just because something is said in BFFM does not mean and did not ever mean that I could not be convinced otherwise. I do have an open mind. If I didn't, I would have already left. I have not given any other forum this much attention.

As for the whole cardio thing, you just advised someone to eat differently to address their appetite rather than instantly saying drop the cardio so you must agree with me to at least some degree and that is encouraging.

I do have more to say on the subject but I am spending WAY too much time on this forum and want to read your article so I'll have to get to that later.

And one last thing. Is there some kind of thread where the board has collected all the counter arguments to the different elements of BFFM that are in question on this forum? Like something specifically for BFFM people? It would be nice if I could go look at all the arguments in one spot rather than dig for months to find all the various viewpoints or get dog-piled at random occasions. That way I will know what may be a hot-button issue beforehand.

 

[gigaplex]

One last thing before I'm off. I do not want to give the impression that I am totally stuck on this ratio as you did mention that. Modifying the ratio to address hunger sounds to me like part of the solution. That would be modifying your diet to fix the problem. Even in BFFM they say that you can modify the ratio - perhaps not quite to this degree but if it helps, it is obviously part of the solution to this hunger problem. But again, I will have to come back to this in the near future...

 

[jmorrison]

As for the whole cardio thing, you just advised someone to eat differently to address their appetite rather than instantly saying drop the cardio so you must agree with me to at least some degree and that is encouraging.

She just told me that because she knows I am borderline as stubborn as you are lol. She has been actively telling me to stop running off all my muscle for months, my own dumbass insecurities prevent my listening though.

I don't know what kind of condition you are in or what goals you are trying to accomplish, but I will share something with you. I used to be a lean mean badass mofo. Then I got drunk and married. This is the exact formula for fat by the way. I was struggling to get back into shape using all the methods that I KNEW were the absolute best ways possible to get my body back.

Built then very politely crushed my dreams and punctured my bubble of what I thought I knew. Instead of arguing, I followed her advice, and in less than 6 months I have lost well over 50lbs now, dropped 8 waist sizes, can actually see my penis, and am in severe danger of having abs. An almost 15% reduction in BF in 6 months by listening to her. In fact, if I had listened to her about the cardio, I may have kept the inch I lost on my chest and arms.

Long story short, she is full of knowledge and win. I would literally stand on my head in oncoming traffic if she told me it would tone me up a little.

I need a shirt that says "Built's Army". With all the people she has helped on here just since I have been here, I bet I wouldnt be the only one wearing one.

 

[Built]

gigaplex, I see your olive-branch and I accept it. I remember, clearly, believing in everything you walked in here with, and how hard it was for me to accept that I didn't need to eat six meals a day, that I wouldn't catabolize all my lean mass if I starved in the AM and I wouldn't turn into a water buffalo if I stuffed myself at bedtime.

Unlike you, I also got sucked in to the "metabolic advantage" of the Atkins diet - I mean, it FELT like magic, yanno? I felt STUFFED and the weight FELL off me. At first. Heh. Yeah. Over time, I had to accept that it really was, in fact, the calories. But the satiety aspect has been my next big love.

Anywhooo... I don't agree with everything I say either. I'm always re-evaluating how these things work. I am always happy to argue facts, with anyone - just so long as they can back up their assertions with research or at least offer that what they have is anecdotal, but perhaps useful.

jmorrison, that's outstanding progress. Nicely done. And no need to play in traffic, not on my account.

 

[Built]

You are lured in by Venuto and then dog-piled instantly by nearly everyone. It's a trap!

This made me laugh!

And one last thing. Is there some kind of thread where the board has collected all the counter arguments to the different elements of BFFM that are in question on this forum? Like something specifically for BFFM people? It would be nice if I could go look at all the arguments in one spot rather than dig for months to find all the various viewpoints or get dog-piled at random occasions. That way I will know what may be a hot-button issue beforehand.

Try reading the link in my sig on getting started. You'll probably find most of the hot-button items in there. Anything I've written in there is based either on peer-reviewed research that I couldn't be arsed to link but could be coaxed into looking up given suitable motivation, or on "general" BB guidelines such as "at least a gram of protein per pound lean mass" - for which I can find peer-reviewed research with regard to safety.

With regard to the "ratio" stuff, if you look at how a typical BB diet is constructed at maintenance, you might see something like this for a lean BB:

Calories: 15 x bodyweight
Protein: 1-2 x bodyweight (I'll use 1.5 for this argument)
fat: 0.5 x bodyweight
carb: remaining calories

This turns into

Calories: 15 x bodyweight
Protein calories: 1.5 x 4 x bodyweight
fat calories: 0.5 x 9 x bodyweight
carb calories: remaining calories

Suppose you use me at 130 lbs:


Calories: 1950 (15 x bodyweight)
protein: 1.5g/lb bodyweight, 195g, 40% of calories
fat: 0.5g/lb bodyweight, 65g, 30% of calories
carb: 1.125g/lb bodyweight, 146.25g, 30% of calories

Kinda interesting, right?

But what if this person is obese? Then the calories will have to come down, right? And so will the protein if you stick to a ratio approach.

This is, I think, where the "ratio" came in as a paradigm, and why it fails as a model.

My .02

 

[VILBAUGH]

Wow, I can't believe I'm hearing this. This is the trademark of all crappy diets. It's a red flag. Throw science to the wind and just BELIEVE. Put your blind faith in something and just hope that it's working. If it's some kind of extreme diet where your water weight is shifting drastically from week to week, measurements really will be futile. And we always have to do the extreme don't we? Let's find the weirdest diet out there with the coolest tagline and then we'll just all believe in it until it comes true. Why is there such a strong tendency to do this?

So what is it? What is the latest fad diet people here are following? There has got to be something warping your mind if your going to sit here and say, don't do measurements, don't use facts and data, just have blind faith. If something goes wrong, how will you know? How will you know how to adjust your diet if you take no measurements. You seem to be advocating guesswork so if that's the situation then the diet's going to work for a few by mere chance and not work for most. That is how the usual fad diet pans out. And everybody failing at the diet will just look to the person who it happened to work for by chance or genetics and think they must be doing something wrong. People eventually get frustrated enough that they switch to a new fad diet and the cycle repeats.

Me, I like facts and data rather than blind faith and I don't fall for fad diets. Since I know what I'm doing and am not on some whacko diet, it is not an exercise in futility for me to use a scientific approach. Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean it's impossible. Maybe it means you have a few things to learn.

its the opposite, its people like you that weigh in every week and frig around with calipers counting millimeters, to assure yourself you're progressing. If your calipers are off by a millimeter you freak out. Relax! looking in the mirror, and monitering performance should prevail. get on a scale once a month MAX! too many variables!

 

[gigaplex]

She just told me that because she knows I am borderline as stubborn as you are lol. She has been actively telling me to stop running off all my muscle for months, my own dumbass insecurities prevent my listening though.

lol, well I would listen to her on that then. When loss of LBM enters the picture, that's where I draw the line. But I know what you mean about it being hard to give it up. It is weird not wanting to give up something you hate.

I don't know what kind of condition you are in or what goals you are trying to accomplish, but I will share something with you. I used to be a lean mean badass mofo. Then I got drunk and married. This is the exact formula for fat by the way. I was struggling to get back into shape using all the methods that I KNEW were the absolute best ways possible to get my body back.

Ha! I have already mastered the drunk part but not the married part. The hardest part of starting my diet was giving up the weekends at the bars with my friends. I'm not the type that can go out all night and just drink one or two beers so I basically had to cut the whole thing out! This health crap is just plain torture sometimes.

Built then very politely crushed my dreams and punctured my bubble of what I thought I knew. Instead of arguing, I followed her advice, and in less than 6 months I have lost well over 50lbs now, dropped 8 waist sizes, can actually see my penis, and am in severe danger of having abs. An almost 15% reduction in BF in 6 months by listening to her. In fact, if I had listened to her about the cardio, I may have kept the inch I lost on my chest and arms.

Long story short, she is full of knowledge and win. I would literally stand on my head in oncoming traffic if she told me it would tone me up a little.

I need a shirt that says "Built's Army". With all the people she has helped on here just since I have been here, I bet I wouldnt be the only one wearing one.

Wow, that's pretty nice progress. I am in a bit of a different situation I think. I already have a working diet that has been pretty successful and am mostly just improving my plans for what I will do once I get close to my goal body fat %. So I have a little bit of time to argue and debate. And really it is just in my nature to argue/debate/question something down to perhaps ridiculous levels of detail before I dive in. So you are probably just a bit more daring than I am

 

[gigaplex]

its the opposite, its people like you that weigh in every week and frig around with calipers counting millimeters, to assure yourself you're progressing. If your calipers are off by a millimeter you freak out. Relax! looking in the mirror, and monitering performance should prevail. get on a scale once a month MAX! too many variables!

Yeah, that's exactly what I do. You must spy on me or something

 

[gtbmed]

This thread has degenerated into pointless discussion IMO. You got the idea that this forum would contain a bunch of BFFM disciples based on one sticky that is almost 5 years old? I don't think I've seen a single post in that forum referring to BFFM during my time here.

I understand the need to question information, but why don't you question Venuto's information? That information has, in fact, been questioned, and some of it has proven to be incorrect. I mean, it's OK to question when someone presents you with new, uncomfortable ideas. But you have to constantly evaluate your current ideas to make sure they're correct and beneficial.

BFFM has worked for you - that's fine. The main idea of dieting is calories in - calories out, so as long as one follows that rule, he/she will lose weight. You started out significantly overweight and you have made progress, which is most important. However, you have to evaluate whether a diet like BFFM will be successful in dropping your body fat now that you don't have an excessive amount of it. I'd argue that a person who is significantly overweight could choose many different plans to diet down to leanness. It's much harder for a lean person to diet down to very low levels of body fat, which is where I think information like that in BFFM fails.

Lyle's information is backed by a lot of research at the moment. You've been offered answers from Lyle McDonald and you've been directed to articles/studies that support the dieting he advocates. I don't know what kind of information you're looking for, but you've been offered a good amount of it and seem unwilling to change your ideas. That's fine, but if it's the case, then this discussion seems futile to me.

 

[Built]

Okay, let's get back to being nice. We were making progress.

<Stops car, turns around, yells at the kids>

"Don't make me come back there!"

 

[gigaplex]

Uh no.

That sticky was last posted to one month ago. The oldest it gets is two years ago. Still what would be the point of keeping stickies around if they were no longer relevent? Your logic fails.

As for questioning Venuto, I have. If I didn't question Venuto to some degree, I wouldn't even be here.

gtbmed, did you ever think of YOURSELF as a disciple? Because it certainly looks that way to me.

I have gained some interesting info from Built and others but certainly not you.

As to BFFM failing when it gets to lower body fat levels... I HAVE VOICED THIS CONCERN ALREADY. This is one of the big things I'm looking into now. But no, don't believe, write another post telling me how I REALLY think. Great man. Good job.

 

[Built]

Enough. That means you too. I'll pare this thread before I put up with it deteriorating.

Now, where were we - oh yes. Tasteful nudes of well-built young men.

Wrong thread? I get confused easily...

 

[jmorrison]

There is no such thing as a tasteful nude of young men.

Ever.

 

[jmorrison]

There is no such thing as a tasteful nude of young men.

Ever.





****well this was a double post, but instead of deleting it I decided to leave it for emphasis.****

 

[gtbmed]

Uh no.

That sticky was last posted to one month ago. The oldest it gets is two years ago. Still what would be the point of keeping stickies around if they were no longer relevent? Your logic fails.

As for questioning Venuto, I have. If I didn't question Venuto to some degree, I wouldn't even be here.

gtbmed, did you ever think of YOURSELF as a disciple? Because it certainly looks that way to me.

I have gained some interesting info from Built and others but certainly not you.

As to BFFM failing when it gets to lower body fat levels... I HAVE VOICED THIS CONCERN ALREADY. This is one of the big things I'm looking into now. But no, don't believe, write another post telling me how I REALLY think. Great man. Good job.

Look, I don't have to defend myself to you. I'm not a "disciple" of any diet except the "eat what you like when you feel like it" diet. I do like reading research though. I've tried to eat fewer carbs and it's worked for me. I've never done any of Lyle's diets though, so I'd hardly call myself a "disciple".

I've tried giving you advice in this thread, none of which you have liked. That's OK - like I said, agree to disagree. But please, stop with the veiled insults.

 

[Yanick]

Ha! I have already mastered the drunk part but not the married part. The hardest part of starting my diet was giving up the weekends at the bars with my friends. I'm not the type that can go out all night and just drink one or two beers so I basically had to cut the whole thing out! This health crap is just plain torture sometimes.

See this is what I wanted to know in the other thread but was ignored. There is something you need to know about this health crap. It can get old really fast, believe me (us) we have been there. I'm, personally, not going to argue the scientific intricacies of meal frequency or ratio dieting or whatever. I'm going to let you in on a little secret...If you feel tortured sometimes now, when your results are astounding (because you're new to this) and while the passion is burning deep inside you because this is all new and interesting stuff. Imagine yourself years from now, the results will be be barely noticeable, the novelty will wear off, but the torture will stay. I'm going to tell you something that you probably think you'd never hear on a BB'ing board. Eat 3 square meals a day not because its better or worse...but because it allows you to actually live your life without having to worry where or how your next meal is going to be eaten. Have a cheat meal with your buddies, hit the bar, get drunk, maybe get laid. You'll be much better off in the long run. Take it from someone who's been there, back, there and back again, then around the block a few times, then to some other place and back again...Balance is the key and the neurotic ratios and weekly skin folds and such will get old pretty fast.