Re-learning the deadlift

[Phineas]

For the last several programs I had been using deadlift variations like romanians and, particulary, sumos. I started cutting 2 weeks ago and decided to resume conventional deadlifting. Well, I was very surprised when I went to perform my first conventional dead in about 3.5 months and it felt very unusual. My lift was terrible!!! The weight wasn't at all challenging, but I forgot my form!!!

I've had 3 or 4 lower pull (and upper push) sessions since starting cutting, and already my form is ALMOST back to normal. I'm slowly re-finding my groove. It was a big blow to the ego, though. In January I was maxing on 8 reps with 245, and my first deadlift session on my cut I was struggling to get 225 for 4 reps. The weird part as I mentioned was my hams/glutes and even my back weren't feeling too challenged. Somethign was just off that I had to stop for no apparent reason.

I'm spending a lot of time re-researching (lol) the deadlift to remember how it was that I use to perform them. It's all good now. I predict two or three more sessions and I'll be back at my best.

I decided to never remove conventional deads again. They're too technical for me to neglect, even for variety. I'll add variations where applicable, but I'll always keep the standard.

Anyone ever have this problem?

 

[Flathead]

I could see where it would be easy to lose your form after not doing an exercise for 3+ months. I personally believe there's no real replacement for traditional deads. I'm not saying variation isn't important, but traditional deads/squats to me are foundation exercises. This is from a power lifter's point of view, though,

 

[PushAndPull]

I need a serious reason, such as injury to replace pull-ups, traditional deadlifts, or back squats in a routine.

 

[Gazhole]

Just keep at it dude. Go ridiculously light and do high rep rest paused singles for a few sets. Basically do like 50 reps, but rest pause them into single reps, and really get the form perfect.

Sometimes can be a good addition to regular sets, or even replace them for a week or two. At this stage considering your form isnt 100% great, adding fatigue to that isn't going to help you re-learn it any quicker.

Its fucking weird doing loads and loads of reps split into singles, but it works lol.

 

[Phineas]

I need a serious reason, such as injury to replace pull-ups, traditional deadlifts, or back squats in a routine.

Agreed. After experimenting with variations of all of these I've concluded that I will remove the original, classic lifts. Bench press I could care less about, but the three mentioned are too valuable.

However, I do have a soft spot for close-grip V-bar pullups/chinups (whatever you want to call them when it's neutral grip..). However, after not doing conventional pronated grip pullups for a long time and then resuming them and remembering how challenging they are I won't neglect them as much. I think I'll switch between them. I prefer the range of motion in close-grip V-Bar, but conventional pullups requires much more brute grip power and general full-body control while stabalizing. Close grip gives you a more condensed centre of gravity where you can focus more on your lats. Conventional pullups are more of a full-body coordinated effort, IMO.

Then there's chinups, which are somewhere in between, but that's another discussion....

Point is...deads and back squats are superior. I could care less about Zercher this and straight-legged that. Put a barbell on the ground, let me deadlift it, then put another barbell on my back, let me squat it, and DAMNIT!..I'm a happy man.

 

[Phineas]

Just keep at it dude. Go ridiculously light and do high rep rest paused singles for a few sets. Basically do like 50 reps, but rest pause them into single reps, and really get the form perfect.

Sometimes can be a good addition to regular sets, or even replace them for a week or two. At this stage considering your form isnt 100% great, adding fatigue to that isn't going to help you re-learn it any quicker.

Its fucking weird doing loads and loads of reps split into singles, but it works lol.

Good tips.

Oddly enough, it's on the lighter sets that I can't get my form down right. The lift will be even easier, but it's just because the load isn't right.

I'm weird in this way but on certain lifts I need a minimum amount of resistance to perform the lift at my best. There's something about a certain resistance that almost forces my body into the comfortable position so that I can counter balance the resistance. Like, with the deadlifts, I made a major breakthrough last night in recalling my form: after months of sumo deadlifting, I had gotten use to the bar being further from my shins, and so I pulled the BB closer to my shins, which in turn increased the angle of my back for the intial pull, and it felt much more comfortable.

The thing is, because of my height and length of my arms I've always been a very very deep deadlifter. While most people I see deadlifting have a back position of about 35-45 degrees (on sumos, with the decreased ROM, I was at around 35 degrees..that was easier for me, lol...). However, I deadlift very deep, with a back position of about 15-20 degrees at the most. This makes conventional deads very challenging for me, as my hams have a greater amount of more pulling relative to my body than other lifters.

What was happening before last night is I was overthinking my back position and going too far down, to the point where my back was nearly parallel to the ground. This made the intial pull way too awkward.

I pulled the BB closer in which naturally brought my back angle up, and helped me remember my normal "slingshot" or "pulley system" approach to deadlifting. It helped me remember how I use to pull with my hams as opposed to simply squatting the weight up like I did in my first year of BB'ing.

The only issue I still have is maintain my hip drive throughout the reps. The weight isn't a challenge. I was deadlifting 235 last night for reps and it wasn't even challenging in the least. What was challening was maintain the technical form throughout. I got use to the simpler lift of the sumo where you don't need to pay attention to your position, as you become essentially "locked in" to position. Sumos are by far much easier than conventional deads.

So, I predict a few more sessions and it will all be good. I have, however, noticed a strength increase in my hips from the sumos. Even though for the reps I was doing 235 wouldn't have normally been sub-maximal, I could still feel the BB going up significantly easier than the last time I was doing conventional deads. I also think a lot of this is in my mind. I had that problem with squats recently -- getting over a plateau. It's one of those things where you just have to disregard your inhibitions and, as Tiger Woods would proudly quip, "just do it" (or, in his case, 'them').

 

[FMJ]

It's like you said.. it's such a complex move.. there's so many things to remember when doing them. I sometimes forget something after not doing them for a couple weeks. It's certainly not like riding a bike. I swear, I actually go through a "checklist" of shit when I'm setting up just so I don't forget something.
Definitly the hardest one for me to perform correctly.
Definitly the easiest one to injure myself if I don't perform correctly so it warrents the extra prep time.

 

[dave 236]

Muscle memory is so important.(I've actually had to take a day to relearn to benchpress with a barbell after using only dumbells for 3-4 weeks)it's one reason why I never go more than a week or two without squats and deads.The truth is you are one of the guys that push us all to keep form first in our minds so I'm not that worried that you'll find it soon.

 

[Viciony]

People really over-think the deadlift which is usually the cause for doing it wrong. Simply think- Back straight, lift with legs+back at the same time. Dont jerk at the start. Its standing up, you learned how to stand when you were an infant. Now learn to do it with weight

Goodluck man

 

[Phineas]

People really over-think the deadlift which is usually the cause for doing it wrong. Simply think- Back straight, lift with legs+back at the same time. Dont jerk at the start. Its standing up, you learned how to stand when you were an infant. Now learn to do it with weight

Goodluck man

I think that's a gross oversimplification of a deadlift, honestly. There's nothing incorrect about "overthinking" a deadlift. Certain plyometric lifts and olympic powerlifting aside, it's easily the most technical lift -- one which, when performed incorrectly, can lead to serious injury.

When I said I was overthinking it I didn't mean I was overthinking the lift itself; I meant I was overthinking how I used to do it. Everyone eventually finds their own niche with deadlifts. I use to have them down perfectly. I still know the mechanics of the lift (by the way, you actually don't lift with your back - you lift with your hams/glutes...the rest of the posterior chain is simply a carrier of the resistance).

You can have a straight back and not jerk the weight and still not reach optimum performance. It's all about the individual's unique proportions.

And, please don't ever compare deadlifting to an infant standing up.

 

[FMJ]

I think that's a gross oversimplification of a deadlift, honestly. There's nothing incorrect about "overthinking" a deadlift. Certain plyometric lifts and olympic powerlifting aside, it's easily the most technical lift -- one which, when performed incorrectly, can lead to serious injury.

When I said I was overthinking it I didn't mean I was overthinking the lift itself; I meant I was overthinking how I used to do it. Everyone eventually finds their own niche with deadlifts. I use to have them down perfectly. I still know the mechanics of the lift (by the way, you actually don't lift with your back - you lift with your hams/glutes...the rest of the posterior chain is simply a carrier of the resistance).

You can have a straight back and not jerk the weight and still not reach optimum performance. It's all about the individual's unique proportions.

And, please don't ever compare deadlifting to an infant standing up.

Agreed! You cannot think enough about this lift. Like I said, there's a list of shit you have to do right, Shoulder back, chest out, hips back, arms straight, back straight, head forward...
And I don't lift with the back at all. More like driving the legs into the ground and bringing my hips forward. It's certainly not as easy as standing up. That's obvious in the videos posted on how to incorrectly do a deadlift. It takes practice to get it right and a few pulled back injuries too!

 

[Gazhole]

On heavier sets i have problems with hip drive also. Got a 1RM last week, and while the rep was fine in terms of back alignment etc, i didn't drive my hips through enough, and my legs were pretty much straight by the time the bar was done passing my knees, haha. Had to basically romanian deadlift it for the last part.

Thank god i do a lot of heavier rack pulls, or that would have been a failed lift for sure.

 

[r00kie]

Well the starting position is very important in a deadlift. Personally I cannot stay in starting position for too long because my hams are completely stretched. Chest up, back flat and hips as high as possible...

If one is built for conventional DL, then knees will not go past the bar too much...So keep your hams in a stretched position in order to have an almost vertical shin.

 

[davegmb]

I have to think about each rep carefully especially when i get tired, otherwise my form turns to rat sh*t

 

[fufu]

Well how long did you stop doing conventional deadlifts before you started doing them again?

You said you started cutting two weeks prior before resuming them right?

Your form may not be the only (or biggest) factor involved in your weaker deadlift. It could be due to the deficit in calories and it could be that you haven't done them in a couple weeks (if i am reading what you wrote correctly). A combination of those two factors will make anyone weaker in a specific lift.

 

[alterntego]

you mentioned earlier that you are cutting . how much do you weigh. at 22 and being a prior long distance runner your probably light in the can (no offense ) that extra body fat would help cushion alot of things . plus at you age i was more concentrated on size and strength . you have alot of time to grow so i wouldnt be robbing the body of the nutrients if i were you . IMHO

 

[MDR]

The deadlift is the most difficult lift in my opinion. It is very easy to develop bad habits, even after years of pulling. Other than learning the snatch, it is the toughest lift to get right consistently. (At least it was for me). Go to any power lifting meet, and you will see experienced lifters making errors in their form. Great idea to re-evaluate from time to time. Very important to have others witness your form and point out form problems as well.

 

[Phineas]

Well how long did you stop doing conventional deadlifts before you started doing them again?

You said you started cutting two weeks prior before resuming them right?

Your form may not be the only (or biggest) factor involved in your weaker deadlift. It could be due to the deficit in calories and it could be that you haven't done them in a couple weeks (if i am reading what you wrote correctly). A combination of those two factors will make anyone weaker in a specific lift.

It was about 3-3.5 months without conventionals. Was using romanians and then sumos for a while.

I started cutting just over 2 weeks ago, and started a new low-volume push/pull split to go with it. Conventional deads are my lower pull.

I'm certain it's a form memory issue and not the deficit because all my other lifts have remained, including squats. I even made a PR the other night on incline DB chest press. Even on deads I've made major improvements since my first session. Like I said, it's such a technical lift that once you find your niche you're set. I just took too much time off of it and need to find my groove. Like, it's not as though I can't deadlift right now. I'm still pushing decent numbers. It's just that compared to my 245 x 8 in January it's not right that at the moment I'm deadlifting 235 for 5. The weight feels easy, but once I get to rep 4 it just feels "off". You know when you're doing something like squats or cleans and nothing particularly is wrong like DOMS or low energy but something just doesn't feel "right"? It's like that. But, it's getting more and more comfortable.

you mentioned earlier that you are cutting . how much do you weigh. at 22 and being a prior long distance runner your probably light in the can (no offense ) that extra body fat would help cushion alot of things . plus at you age i was more concentrated on size and strength . you have alot of time to grow so i wouldnt be robbing the body of the nutrients if i were you . IMHO

Umm, lol, first of all, I quit running nearly 2 years ago. I was about 140-145 lbs then....start of my cut 2 weeks ago I was 195 @ approx 12% BF, maybe a bit lower, so I can assure you I'm not "light in the can". I've been bulking for over a year and a half, so this cut is in good time. Also, I'm not "robbing" my body of nutrients. I have my macros perfectly calculated. I'm still learning to get down my refeeds, as I'm still over the 50g fat suggestion. However, I'm still emphasizing carb and overall calorie intake. Nevertheless, after 2 weeks I've seen about 3-4 lbs lost with no muscle gone. For my first cut, I think that's pretty good. I'm giving myself the summer to go through with it, so that's plenty of time to gradually drop the BF.

 

[Viciony]

Oh sorry man, you're right. I dont compete in the deadlift or anything so what would I know

I think that's a gross oversimplification of a deadlift, honestly. There's nothing incorrect about "overthinking" a deadlift. Certain plyometric lifts and olympic powerlifting aside, it's easily the most technical lift -- one which, when performed incorrectly, can lead to serious injury.

When I said I was overthinking it I didn't mean I was overthinking the lift itself; I meant I was overthinking how I used to do it. Everyone eventually finds their own niche with deadlifts. I use to have them down perfectly. I still know the mechanics of the lift (by the way, you actually don't lift with your back - you lift with your hams/glutes...the rest of the posterior chain is simply a carrier of the resistance).

You can have a straight back and not jerk the weight and still not reach optimum performance. It's all about the individual's unique proportions.

And, please don't ever compare deadlifting to an infant standing up.

 

[Phineas]

Oh sorry man, you're right. I dont compete in the deadlift or anything so what would I know

Huh???

Are you a competitive power lifter? If so, I'm surprised you view the deadlift so simply.

 

[Viciony]

Yeah I am. I do agree that there is a wrong way to do it, and most people do it wrong. But I think you cant just go to online forums as have people say " No you need to do this this and this ". You have to perfect it on your own, over time. You learn one piece at a time. First, simply standing up, as I said. Then, focus on improving - keep your back straight and head up. Once that's down, move to forearms and glutes during the lift. Then, move on to traps and shoulder flexation. No one deadlifted perfectly the first time, probably not even the 10th. You start by learning to stand with your legs and the back at the same time and go from there.

So simply put, learn to stand with the weight, as i said. Then when you want to improve your dead and move up in weight without hurting yourself, that's when you get into the specifics.

Edit: and I didnt even notice you were the thread starter. You should't be so negative to people trying to help you on a subject that they have much more knowledge than you in. If you'd honestly like help, I might suggest recording yourself doing a dead, and posting it so people can help identify what you are doing wrong.

 

[Phineas]

Yeah I am. I do agree that there is a wrong way to do it, and most people do it wrong. But I think you cant just go to online forums as have people say " No you need to do this this and this ". You have to perfect it on your own, over time. You learn one piece at a time. First, simply standing up, as I said. Then, focus on improving - keep your back straight and head up. Once that's down, move to forearms and glutes during the lift. Then, move on to traps and shoulder flexation. No one deadlifted perfectly the first time, probably not even the 10th. You start by learning to stand with your legs and the back at the same time and go from there.

So simply put, learn to stand with the weight, as i said. Then when you want to improve your dead and move up in weight without hurting yourself, that's when you get into the specifics.

Edit: and I didnt even notice you were the thread starter. You should't be so negative to people trying to help you on a subject that they have much more knowledge than you in. If you'd honestly like help, I might suggest recording yourself doing a dead, and posting it so people can help identify what you are doing wrong.

Well, for a deadlift "expert" you really oversimplify the movement. It's not just "standing up". First of all, no one stands up in that specific pattern. Secondly, to simply suggest standing up ignores the proper mechanics of the lift, and usually leads lifters to incorrectly pull with their backs -- as when the lifters neglects to focus on the hams/glutes they tend to use their backs.

Also, what are you talking about with shoulder flexion? There is no movement of the scapula whatsoever. The involved joints are the knees and hips. A lot of lifters pull their lower back inwards and squeeze their shoulder blades at the top of the concentric, but that's not actually part of the lift. You straighten up, that's it. This is a hamstring/glute lift (primarily), not back and shoulders.

Also, I'm only arguing technicalities of an important lift because my goal on this forum -- aside from obtaining information for personal research -- is to help our younger members develop good training habits from the start so that they can avoid all the mistakes and wasted time many of us endured when we were beginners. Someone coming on here and saying all the deadlift is is standing up with a straight back and yada yada is not the best instruction to these younger lifters who don't yet understand the mechanics of the muscular system.

And, criticizing a member of our board for not listening to you because you "know much more knowledge on the subject" is not a good way to earn a reputation on this board, and I'm not talking about the rep points but an actual reputation with our members. We all appreciate knowledge and willingness to help, but modesty is also a virtue.

Besides, I would think a deadlift "expert" would have more to say then "stand up like an infant".

 

[Mike09100]

This is a hamstring/glute lift (primarily), not back and shoulders.

LOL

ur an idiot.

 

[Phineas]

LOL

ur an idiot.

And, why is that?

Deadlifts ARE a hamstring/glute exercise. The back is worked indirectly through isometric tension, which means it's not contracting as the primary muscle(s). While the entire posterior chain is involved in the lift, it's the hamstrings and glutes which actually contract and pull the weight up like a pulley system. The back is simply the carrier of the weight. The origin of exertion is the hips.

Contrary to popular belief, deadlifts are a leg exercise -- not a back exercise.

You, good sir, are the idiot.

 

[FMJ]

LOL

ur an idiot.

You're calling Phineas an idiot??
The guy knows more about fitness than 90% of the members on IM!
But if that's not enough for you...

Barbell Deadlift

Dumbass.

 

[PushAndPull]

LOL

ur an idiot.

Nothing like handing out insults when you're clearly wrong

 

[MDR]

Don't let it bother you, Phineas. You can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Just consider the source and don't waste your time. The rest of us appreciate your comments and feedback.

 

[Phineas]

Don't let it bother you, Phineas. You can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Just consider the source and don't waste your time. The rest of us appreciate your comments and feedback.

Thanks man, but it didn't bother me. I think it's funny. However, when someone argues me when I know I'm right I just have to argue. Stubborness runs in my family, lol.

 

[Phineas]

You're calling Phineas an idiot??
The guy knows more about fitness than 90% of the members on IM!
But if that's not enough for you...

Barbell Deadlift

Dumbass.

I'm just a 22-year-old who shares what I know. Believe me I'm no expert. Leave that to Gaz, Built, Prince, Juggernaut, and those type. In time, but I've been in this sport for not even two years. I just share what I do know. Most of my detailed responses are aimed at beginners getting started correctly. I ask LOTS of questions, though.

The first step to learning is admitting ignorance, and I have no problem doing that!

By the way, thanks for backing me up with a source! I love shooting down the deadlift-as-a-back-lift myth. Seriously, the day I finally understood the mechanics of the deadlift was the day my form immediately corrected and my numbers went up by 30 lbs for 10 reps. I don't argue deadlift mechanics because I'm a dork for technicalities; I argue because thinking of deadlifts as a back exercise usually leads to improper and potentially dangerous form (as they're trying to lift with their backs).

 

[MDR]

Probably bugged me more than you! Just wanted you to know that your commentary is valuable to a lot of us on this site. I agree 100% about admitting ignorance; I've been lifting for a very long time and I learn a great deal from this forum.