regarding barbell rows, always see 2 forms done by different body types

[pumpchaser]

My conclusion jives with that espoused by Dave Draper at a very recent seminar, in which he specifically discussed fully bent over positioning, to eliminate any lower back involvement/strain, while shifting the area of emphasis. The bar is then lifted to the middle of the chest, in much the same way that the best chins are done to a mid-point of the chest vs. the more easily done but less effective standard chin to the neck. A subtle but effective difference that isolates the desired muscle much better, and for which ego and higher weights must be sacrificed in the interest of effectiveness. Just as with any exercise, subtle nuances can make a huge difference.

Huge guys doing the exercise incorrectly is inconclusive-the question is what is the most optimal exercise vs. what is done that hits the lats, but in less than optimal fashion. IMO, if you want to stand up, do T-bars with close or wide grip, this is great and will create less back stress.

 

[gr81]

^^well that couldn't be.. enough of your lies!! ha ha j/k.. of course he is pulling shit out of his ass. anything he ever says seems to be based off an observation of his congregation of pro BB and powerlifters that all happen to train at his gym, didn't you know

 

[pumpchaser]

Wha?

 

[gr81]

naw man, we posted at the same time, it wasn't directed at you. I was referring to johnnny who started this thread. after reading your post thou you can go fucc yourself too. there was no need for your post, I have never even talked to you before. why would I just start insulting you?

 

[pumpchaser]

No problemo, some of the dudes on this site are like rabid attack dogs.

 

[gr81]

I can second that.. its all good. you make a good point btw

 

[CowPimp]

My conclusion jives with that espoused by Dave Draper at a very recent seminar, in which he specifically discussed fully bent over positioning, to eliminate any lower back involvement/strain, while shifting the area of emphasis. The bar is then lifted to the middle of the chest, in much the same way that the best chins are done to a mid-point of the chest vs. the more easily done but less effective standard chin to the neck.

Lifting the bar towards the middle of your chest puts much more stress on the posterior deltoid muscles and takes away from the stimulation of one's lats. I do this type of row for my shoulders, and it is very effective. However, bringing the bar more towards the upper abdominals certainly uses more lat strength.

 

[P-funk]

My conclusion jives with that espoused by Dave Draper at a very recent seminar, in which he specifically discussed fully bent over positioning, to eliminate any lower back involvement/strain, while shifting the area of emphasis. The bar is then lifted to the middle of the chest, in much the same way that the best chins are done to a mid-point of the chest vs. the more easily done but less effective standard chin to the neck. A subtle but effective difference that isolates the desired muscle much better, and for which ego and higher weights must be sacrificed in the interest of effectiveness. Just as with any exercise, subtle nuances can make a huge difference.

Huge guys doing the exercise incorrectly is inconclusive-the question is what is the most optimal exercise vs. what is done that hits the lats, but in less than optimal fashion. IMO, if you want to stand up, do T-bars with close or wide grip, this is great and will create less back stress.

That was the seminar last week at Mid-City gym was it?

 

[Tha Don]

I do it the same way ARNIE dose, and also the way which recruits more work from the lats rather than using the traps/shoulders

that is a BENT-OVER ROW, bending over (somewhere between 60 and 80 degrees), back straight, head up, legs and core tensed, and rowing using a full ROM into the upper abs/midsection (which puts a lot less stress on the lower back than rowing to the chest and also hits the lats much better)

this is a staple exercise of mine in adding mass to the back, and you can deff. feel it the next couple of days

so if ya wanna copy the famous guys copy the oak himself and row properly!

 

[pumpchaser]

I think that where the bar's pulled to varies, but the overall theme that makes sense is to be fully bent over to get the lats more involved and to avoid back stress.

 

[Mudge]

in which he specifically discussed fully bent over positioning, to eliminate any lower back involvement/strain

Are you saying that bending over fully removes the lower back from the movement?

 

[pumpchaser]

For me and for most i think, yes. Other similar effects are dumbell rows while using the other hand to take pressure off the back, and t-bar bows, which don't put the same stress on the lower back. One of the variations i like best for rows is to lie face down on a flat bench and do barbell rows, completely removing the lower back strain and further isolating the lats.

 

[racoon02]

Wait, whats the Yates row look like? Anyone post a pic of it? Ive only seen rows done the bent over way...

 

[Mudge]

You bend over, just not as much.

 

[pmech]

Mudge post a link to your video. I think that is a very good example of it. I dont do them that way, but it is a very good example.

 

[Mudge]

314kB Monstar http://www.webbtrain.us/videos/Bentover_Rows_385x3.WMV
5.27MB http://www.webbtrain.us/videos/Mudge_Back.wmv

Right click and save

 

[racoon02]

Ah Ive been doing those! I just call them "The back things on the smith machine"





I will now call them by the proper name

and the lighting of that room does not do your tan justice mudge

 

[madden player]

Impressive vids Mudge ..I am not queer eye for the straight guy or anything close to that, but lets get rid of them black socks.

 

[camarosuper6]

I cant stand doing the fully bent over rows with barbell. I hate arching my back, it always feels dangerous.

 

[pumpchaser]

Agreed; i'd rather do T-bar rows, leverage rowing or barbell rows while facing down on a bench, all much better isolation and minimal lower back risk.

 

[Johnnny]

CamaroSuper6

I cant stand doing the fully bent over rows with barbell. I hate
arching my back, it always feels dangerous.

I agree, but I still do both forms. The 2nd form I mention I do with an E-Zbar
as I use a reverse grip & it's much easier on your wrists, & you can bring the bar up much closer to your upper body.

Pumpchaser

Agreed; i'd rather do T-bar rows, leverage rowing or barbell rows while facing down on a bench, all much better isolation and minimal lower back risk.

T-Bar rows, but old school are my favorites, with a 45lb bar lined up against the wall & stacking the bar with 25lb weights as with the 45lbers you can't bring the bar up higher as the big weights get in the way & I use a wide grip handle & throw on about 7-9 25lb weights on the edge of the bar & then gradually lower the weight each set to get the full burn.

 

[Mudge]

Impressive vids Mudge ..I am not queer eye for the straight guy or anything close to that, but lets get rid of them black socks.

Yeah, and it made me look yet even whiter as well. Dark clothes did not work with indoor shooting.

 

[M.J.H.]

For me personally Yates style is hands down more effective than the classic style of bentover rows. When I say Yates style I mean double over- or underhand grip, pulling the bar to your waist, standing a bit more upright. The classic style being more with your body parallel to the floor using a bit wider grip, pulling the bar to your lower chest/sternum area.

 

[Mudge]

Agreed, and yes I pull it into my gut.

 

[Johnnny]

Monstar

As I've said the majority of the ppl whether they're on steroids or not who use that 1st form I mentioned or the Yate's form generally tend to have larger, wider, & thicker backs than ppl who strictly use the completely bent over rowing form.

But as I said I'm doing both forms but I do Yate's form 1st & put as much weight on as possible & still limit cheating & no straps.

I guess it's normal to not be able to do as much weight as with Yate's form.

But does anyone else feel more stress on their lower back with completely bent over rows with the arch in your back & knees bent? I do.

But some ppl tell me they feel more stress with Yate's form of rows so I guess it really is true that every individual body is different.

 

[pumpchaser]

Better not to use any particular bodybuilder as an example, because their preference doesn't necessarily mean that they're doing this the most effective way vs. what they're used to, in many cases-with their genetics they'll often grow as long as they're doing a decent exercise. Whether someone's got a wide back or not has more to do with genetics than with the type of exercise used, as long as it's generally effective. Everyone's different, so experiment for yourself.

However, if you're not entirely bent over there's no doubt that it's putting more stress on the lower back. Some can do this without getting injured or aggitated. I'd also say that fully bent over isolates the lats better.

 

[firestorm]

performing them this way is not an optimal way to recruit your lats into the movement now is it? it becomes more of an upward shoulder row this way, I don't care who you know that does it this way or how famous they are. Think about it, its simple physics

I'd like to hit on this a little more.
I have a little test for ya. put on a light weight around 135 pounds and do 30 reps using BOTH forms. I can guarentee that using the more bentover form will will notice a fuller range of motion for one thing as well as you're hitting a larger area of the back muscles. Bentover rows will attack not only the lats (for thickness) but also the middle back muscles as well. The more you stand up, the less your middile back gets hit and the target area rises more to the traps and even less of the lats play a part. It becomes a lat excercise.
Now we can debate this over and over but you can't argue with testing my theory yourself. If you REALLY want proof that what i'm saying is true then do this:
On Monday for example do 6 sets of what I consider bentover rows Keep the weight moderate so you can get good clean sets of 10-12. Make it burn.

On your next back workout do the upright version using the same format and you will see what I'm saying is FACT and not opinion.
*****************
I've done this test in the past myself and here were my personnal findings. After performing the bentover rows (bentover), the following 2 days my lats, mid back including Traps,and lower back muscles were sore as hell. The following week I did the standup version and the following few days it hurt like hell to turn my head, (my traps got trashed which is a good thing if that is what your goal was). My lats were a little sore but not to the extent as the week prior because I don't believe I encorporated as much of the lats to perform the second version.
This was an excellent question and I'm glad it resurfaced. I suggest taking NO ONES opinion on this topic and giving this a test. The results will speak for themselves.
*********************
Now in regards to which is a better excercise, there is no right or wrong answer because it all depends on what you want to use that excercise for. If your doing the more upright version one week then I'd suggest following it up with a HEAVY D/B row or Cable Row to fry the mid back and such. Also you won't need to thrash your traps that week. A moderate shrug routine for example would finish them off.
If you do the bentover version then you can do a lighter DB row or Cable row and probably cut a set or two but now you need to hit the shrugs hard as you normally would on their work day.

 

[pumpchaser]

The best variations are, IMO:
-T-bar rows-less lower back strain
-Bent over rows lying on a bench, or rows while the upper body's propped up against a bench to remove back strain and to increase the isolation.
-Leverage machines that allow you to brace your stomach and chest to remove any lower back strain while isolating the lats - i used one the other day and was sore for several days, which rarely happens with bent over rows.

 

[firestorm]

Can't argue with that post pump

 

[Johnnny]

Firestorm

I agree with you on that long post, I find it more beneficial to do both forms of rows, I do the Yate's form first, then the more completely bent over version, & then I usually do either T-Bar rows or 1arm rows with DB's & then finish off with some sort of cable row & weighted wide grip chins are always my first exercise.