Sexuality - for those interested

[John H.]

John,
Hi. Not withstanding your current discomfort I am pleased that I have caused you an occasion to increase the intensity of your workouts. Stress has consistently proved to be necessary growth factor. It will likely invoke a positive metabolic growth factor for you. I am also pleased that at least one of us has gotten something out of this interaction; sadly it had no such effervescence effect for me. While hitting those weights you may want to ponder the fact that society currently already permits all manner of bi-lateral relationships which fall short of intimacy for same sex social interaction. Then ponder why is it necessary for sexual intimacy to be a required expression of love when there are so many other societally acceptable ways? When you think about it I think you will see that in reality, these days, sex is oftentimes used as a mechanism for ego gratification, conquest, domination or a simple self pleasuring physical high (among both hetero and homo couples). Even in conventional hetero encounters I suspect that there are many couples who have never gotten past the focus on the physical response and touched and achieved the greater mutual pleasures and satisfaction available at the deeper emotional level. No one is perfect or consistent in this of course but absent the need or intention to procreate it really just resolves to be for the pleasure of one, or both. Absent sexual intimacy, I suspect no one in society would object to the notion of close friendships of any variety. Intimacy has many diverse forms and sexual intimacy is only one.

On the Forbidden Relationships invitation I am going to pass because although I may have a personal interest in increasing my knowledge and insight on a wide range of subjects I can not knowingly contribute monetary payment for a book that will likely extend financial benefit to organizations that have a contempt for much of what I believe in (religious principals and acceptable social behavior). The library is out too since I don't want my name associated with the material. So you have a catch-22 condition and the precise challenge that I previously mentioned about any special interest group that is faced with "selling" their agenda, 'facts' (of the second kind) and lifestyle choices to the populace at large. These kind of books are usually ineffectual though. Their marketing appeal is to specialized and too constrained (e.g. a probably by the same demographic of the advocating market group or in this case 3% of populace +/- 1%). So the market apeals usually degrades into a narrow interest market (e.g. cloistered) and become support materials to the constituency that are able and willing to pay to advocate a particular life style to make them feel euphoric (I avoided the "gay" word) about being participants in a particular social practice. No doubt there will be a few new interested buyers and new recruits. But I chose to not be one.

Take Care John.

Hugs for all,

OD

Hi Ocean,

Contrary to your belief, I was not at all caused any "discomfort" actually.

I accept "inspiration" from all sources. Honest inspiration. Not bragging, but those that know me wonder how I can "get any better" (physically speaking with regard to my working out and what I have accomplished - to me it is VERY important and certainly DOES PAY A MAN BACK BIGTIME!) (THEIR opinion, not mine so stated by them and not asked for by me but certainly appreciated. I do not think I am all "that good" )...

I had to laugh at your comment about "...society currently already permits all manner of bi-laterial relationships..." - when did anyone actually ASK "society" for "their permission"? Society I hate to say is not always right - as is true with Human Beings certainly, Society being nothing more than a group of those Human Beings who many happen to be "like-minded" but that condition many times has nothing to do with accuracy or honesty or completeness or truthfulness...

At least you state "Intimacy has many diverse forms..." - it SURE DOES NATURALLY SO too and runs the full spectrum of Sexual Orientation as well NATURALLY so and RIGHTLY so. There IS variety - variation - IN ALL THINGS. Nothing is exempt. That IS LIFE - and LIVING when honestly UNDERSTOOD.

As to the book I recommended you - and others read - you COULD just go to a library or bookstore that has the book and at least LOOK at it and thumb through it. No one would "see" you doing that IF you are careful and nothing will "rub off" on you for having done so. The book FORBIDDEN FRIENDSHIPS, by Michael Rocke (Oxford University Press) is a work well written and shows the sources used to back up the findings based on existing sources. It is kinda hard to argue with source material if you look at it from all perspectives objectively. I challenge you to at least go somewhere anonomyously where no one will know who you are and look the book and take some time to at least consider what the book has to say and why and to what extent the author DID his "homework" in achieving success in reporting history accurately. Let me know what you think - at least - just looking at the book and scanning it.... The book was written for all those sincerely interested in history accurately and completely. Sex is a basic subject which should have interest to ALL Human Beings IF they are at all HONEST. I am not asking you or anyone else to "feel euphoric" after having done so - but if you do feel that way it may be because this book was written in such a manner as to portray and record history accurately, completely, and honestly. And it records a part of the basic of Humanity that requires all to know and to understand. Whether you or anyone else "accepts" is entirely up to you and your "openiness" of mind and willingness to at least UNDERSTAND the basics of life and living.

Until you - or anyone else - is WILLING to HONESTLY look at ALL sides of a subject and objectively you will NEVER truly learn - or UNDERSTAND.

Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

"Hugs for all"?

John,
Hi. Not withstanding your current discomfort I am pleased that I have caused you an occasion to increase the intensity of your workouts. Stress has consistently proved to be necessary growth factor. It will likely invoke a positive metabolic growth factor for you. I am also pleased that at least one of us has gotten something out of this interaction; sadly it had no such effervescence effect for me. While hitting those weights you may want to ponder the fact that society currently already permits all manner of bi-lateral relationships which fall short of intimacy for same sex social interaction. Then ponder why is it necessary for sexual intimacy to be a required expression of love when there are so many other societally acceptable ways? When you think about it I think you will see that in reality, these days, sex is oftentimes used as a mechanism for ego gratification, conquest, domination or a simple self pleasuring physical high (among both hetero and homo couples). Even in conventional hetero encounters I suspect that there are many couples who have never gotten past the focus on the physical response and touched and achieved the greater mutual pleasures and satisfaction available at the deeper emotional level. No one is perfect or consistent in this of course but absent the need or intention to procreate it really just resolves to be for the pleasure of one, or both. Absent sexual intimacy, I suspect no one in society would object to the notion of close friendships of any variety. Intimacy has many diverse forms and sexual intimacy is only one.

On the Forbidden Relationships invitation I am going to pass because although I may have a personal interest in increasing my knowledge and insight on a wide range of subjects I can not knowingly contribute monetary payment for a book that will likely extend financial benefit to organizations that have a contempt for much of what I believe in (religious principals and acceptable social behavior). The library is out too since I don't want my name associated with the material. So you have a catch-22 condition and the precise challenge that I previously mentioned about any special interest group that is faced with "selling" their agenda, 'facts' (of the second kind) and lifestyle choices to the populace at large. These kind of books are usually ineffectual though. Their marketing appeal is to specialized and too constrained (e.g. a probably by the same demographic of the advocating market group or in this case 3% of populace +/- 1%). So the market apeals usually degrades into a narrow interest market (e.g. cloistered) and become support materials to the constituency that are able and willing to pay to advocate a particular life style to make them feel euphoric (I avoided the "gay" word) about being participants in a particular social practice. No doubt there will be a few new interested buyers and new recruits. But I chose to not be one.

Take Care John.

Hugs for all,

OD

Hi Ocean,

"Hugs for all"?

I am not "picky" myself, but some here COULD "wonder about" that final statement (those that are truly "Heterosexual" I mean).... IF you get "my drift"?

But, again, TRUTHFULLY!,

Take Care, John H.

 

[OceanDude]

Hi Rob,
I understand. All I am interested in in ANY subject is getting to the "bottom of it" - the TRUTH ACCURATELY, COMPLETELY AND THOROUGHLY as is Humanly possible. And to HONEST UNDERSTANDING. Anything else in any subject helps no one. God would Himself want just that I feel.

Take Care, John H.

John,
Getting "to the bottom of it" is what is precisely the problem for many people because that's a sensitive area for most people (pun intended) and why would they be inclined to look at unnatural things as natural if they are content with the conventional? You and your special lifestyle interest group have a huge marketing challenge ahead of you and most average people will not buy into it. All you can play on is apathy and indifference (which is currently a good play in this country) to get by up to the point it starts encroaching more and more into the mainstream and then it will just get into a class struggle situation and hostile political responses with more money working against you than for you. Your vision lacks the financial wherewithal to overcome the majority and the liberal justices are soon to be replaced. In the end you will discover that futility in trying to legislate respect. It will not happen and you will always fall short of being fully accepted. Just my humble opinion.

OD

 

[John H.]

John,
Getting "to the bottom of it" is what is precisely the problem for many people because that's a sensitive area for most people (pun intended) and why would they be inclined to look at unnatural things as natural if they are content with the conventional? You and your special lifestyle interest group have a huge marketing challenge ahead of you and most average people will not buy into it. All you can play on is apathy and indifference (which is currently a good play in this country) to get by up to the point it starts encroaching more and more into the mainstream and then it will just get into a class struggle situation and hostile political responses with more money working against you than for you. Your vision lacks the financial wherewithal to overcome the majority and the liberal justices are soon to be replaced. In the end you will discover that futility in trying to legislate respect. It will not happen and you will always fall short of being fully accepted. Just my humble opinion.

OD

Hi Ocean,

At least I flushed out YOUR hatred, bigotry, lack of any understanding and unwillingness to the same, etc. It could be considered that this is at least the one time you have been honest.

I can't wait until you find something else to hate on. Do you feel a personal fulfillment when you do that?

For someone that would like others to feel you are educated you certainly display your unwillingness and lack to BE truly so.

Take Care though, someday YOU may be a "target" for someone else's hatred and bigotry as you display. Let me know how you feel when that happens to you.

Also, I would not feel that you are at all "humble".

John H.

 

[Du]

Hi Ocean,



I can't wait until you find something else to hate on. Do you feel a personal fulfillment when you do that?


John H.

Or perhaps he is just sick of you posting your gay threads in here. It is not a problem that YOU are gay, thats not the issue. It is that you consistently post homosexual threads, day in and day out. To be honest, I havent seen you post much else. So, it could be said that you are only here at IM to post homosexual threads, which would indeed anger some of us.

Take care, Matt D.

 

[OceanDude]

Hi Ocean,

"Hugs for all"?

I am not "picky" myself, but some here COULD "wonder about" that final statement (those that are truly "Heterosexual" I mean).... IF you get "my drift"?

But, again, TRUTHFULLY!,

Take Care, John H.

John,
I am glad you picked up on this. I was trying to show what might be an acceptable way of loving any fellow human irrespective of sex. If showing compassion to my fellow human beings is taken offensively I can live with that.

Hugs guy,
OD

 

[OceanDude]

Hi Ocean,

At least I flushed out YOUR hatred, bigotry, lack of any understanding and unwillingness to the same, etc. It could be considered that this is at least the one time you have been honest.

I can't wait until you find something else to hate on. Do you feel a personal fulfillment when you do that?

For someone that would like others to feel you are educated you certainly display your unwillingness and lack to BE truly so.

Take Care though, someday YOU may be a "target" for someone else's hatred and bigotry as you display. Let me know how you feel when that happens to you.

Also, I would not feel that you are at all "humble".

John H.

John, I am sorry you feel this way; I truthfully am. Those comments may have been insensitive but given the frankness with which we have thus far enjoyed in this discourse I thought it humorous and within the bounds of relational familiarity. Bummer. Sorry that you think I am a bigot - but I am not anymore so that you. We both have our opinions and we should not resort to insensitive name calling. Hypocrisy is always lurking at the edge of one's inability to sell their ideas.

As for hatred. John, I am already a target for hatred. I am hated by insecure people that for some strange reason seem to think I believe myself to be more intelligent than others. I have never claimed this and even though I test out well into the high side of the IQ range there was a time when this was not so apparent; not that I believe in the silly IQ thing anyway and pride myself more on creative flexibility and insight. At one point in my life I could not even do elementary algebra without a tutor or even differentiate the letter "d" from the letter "b". At that earlier time I could not understand why my parents were upset with a "b" on a report card (that was really a "d"). I have personally come a long way since then through a lot of personal sacrifice, restraint, perseverance, effort and force of will. I have chosen to be different than I originally was. I have a long way to go still to get to where I want to be (like we all do - except for the underachievers). From my own personal experience I have come to believe that intelligence and creativity and behaviors are truly learned things and relate to how we model and organize our thoughts and how we structure our attitudes. I firmly believe with proper discipline and self awareness (and self respect) we can adapt our perspective at will if we subordinate our preconceptions, social conditioning and emotions. I fundamentally believe that we "chose to be who we resolve to be" - spiritually, emotionally, intimately, socially and intellectually. I also believe that we can reject those things and behaviors that are not desirable or are unnatural or cause us harm etc. Life offers a buffet of competing ideals, standards and relations. I would recommend reconsidering if you like what you have come to think is your only option.

I am sure that in your case you have had many experiences in life and cause for reflection and introspection. Suffering hate is an opportuinty to test one's resolve and will more so than it is a time of suffering. If you are at all believing of my perspective and experience maybe you might want to reconsider some of what I am saying and see if you really have the desire to consider some changes? I would personally hate to think that I did not have the personal ability and freedom to be what I chose to be in life rather than a powerless victim to some hormonal or emotional short circuits that were experienced at an early age and caused me to congeal and lock in my own opinion of "who" I was at the "Id" level. I would rather die than be a victim to my own bodily cravings where I could not control my behavior and do things beyond my conscious control. There are certainly temptations in life but it is through discipline and self respect that we put the temptations into context and move on to bigger things.

Take Care John - I hope you can get beyond this thinking because I am confident that you can be much more than you currently are some day (we all can) if you can get the unimportant things behind you. You, and everyone on the planet has the capacity to be something more special than you can imagine if we can all just get past the simple stuff like self pleasures, physical joy and selfishness. We all need to move to the next level in humanity's evolution. Nature and all of Creation is screaming for us to move forward and get into the real action and opportunity waiting for out there.

Bye John & Hugs,
OD

 

[John H.]

Or perhaps he is just sick of you posting your gay threads in here. It is not a problem that YOU are gay, thats not the issue. It is that you consistently post homosexual threads, day in and day out. To be honest, I havent seen you post much else. So, it could be said that you are only here at IM to post homosexual threads, which would indeed anger some of us.

Take care, Matt D.

Hi Matt,

I will be posting and have somewhat on other topics. And on other Boards too. The subject of Sexuality is not the sum of all my interests by any stretch of the imagination...

But at least you are seeing "the other side" of this - imagine now how it must be for someone who happens to BE BiSexual or Homosexual to be constantly "downed" by Heterosexual people who have absolutely no REAL UNDERSTANDING about this subject and it gets to the point of hatred and bigotry....

Sincerely - and seriously - Matt,

Take Care!, John H.

 

[John H.]

John,
I am glad you picked up on this. I was trying to show what might be an acceptable way of loving any fellow human irrespective of sex. If showing compassion to my fellow human beings is taken offensively I can live with that.

Hugs guy,
OD

Hi OD,

I AM aware truly that there are many ways to express and/or show affection and care towards another Human Being. I have absolutely no problem with hugging someone I truly care about - Man or Woman. And I do - honestly so and they KNOW that. They take no offense because they KNOW there is no offense meant in any way. I do not "limit" myself to my expressions to those I truly care about just to "satisify someone or society"... Believe me, if I hug someone it is MEANT and is TRUTHFUL regardless of their Gender. I see Human Beings PERIOD!

Take Care, John H.

 

[BoneCrusher]

So halloween was OK. Played with my avatar some, helped a friends kids with their costumes, and kicked back. A day of R & R. Anyone else do anything exciting?

 

[OceanDude]

No BC I am kind of disappointed with today's kids - no imagination. No outhouses turned over, no M80's in the pumpkin, no block egg wars with the other neighborhoods. Boring...

They really just need to ban Halloween since it's so apathetic now that no one even dresses up. Saw one kid in blue jeans and a paper sack. I asked him what he was dressed up as and he says "a normal kid - now gimmie some good stuff". I told him he had to at least threaten a "trick" or no deal. He just says "man, you are a rip off - I'm outta here." That's when I opened up with the hidden garden hose... hehe.

it ain't like it use to be...
OD

 

[OceanDude]

Hi OD,

I AM aware truly that there are many ways to express and/or show affection and care towards another Human Being. I have absolutely no problem with hugging someone I truly care about - Man or Woman. And I do - honestly so and they KNOW that. They take no offense because they KNOW there is no offense meant in any way. I do not "limit" myself to my expressions to those I truly care about just to "satisify someone or society"... Believe me, if I hug someone it is MEANT and is TRUTHFUL regardless of their Gender. I see Human Beings PERIOD!

Take Care, John H.

Hi John,
It sounds like you have studied your sexuality more than most people study in college. Better be careful about being such a zealot about it since you are starting to sound like a religious crusader about your sexuality.

OD

 

[BoneCrusher]

We were somewhat alarmed when I found a staple in a milk-dud ... we always do the candy inspection anyway but this was the first year I actually found any kind of foreign object in anything.

See we all had to create our amusement as kids OD. When play time came we went outside, found a pile of dirt ... and had dirt-clod wars. Grab a bunch of scrap whatever and build something. We all had to be creative. Now kids are handed their amusement in a box marked PS2 or Chucky Returns. No creativity anymore. Egging a car was considered lame ... while creating a plaster-of-parris gas-cap was a blast.

We always had a custume or we were socially rejected as too stupid to hang out with. Bisides that a good costume was a sure way to not get away with your brand of fun. No kid with out the energy to come up with something to wear gets squat at my door. No creativity = no treats.

 

[John H.]

I DO KNOW who I am - trust me...

John, I am sorry you feel this way; I truthfully am. Those comments may have been insensitive but given the frankness with which we have thus far enjoyed in this discourse I thought it humorous and within the bounds of relational familiarity. Bummer. Sorry that you think I am a bigot - but I am not anymore so that you. We both have our opinions and we should not resort to insensitive name calling. Hypocrisy is always lurking at the edge of one's inability to sell their ideas.

As for hatred. John, I am already a target for hatred. I am hated by insecure people that for some strange reason seem to think I believe myself to be more intelligent than others. I have never claimed this and even though I test out well into the high side of the IQ range there was a time when this was not so apparent; not that I believe in the silly IQ thing anyway and pride myself more on creative flexibility and insight. At one point in my life I could not even do elementary algebra without a tutor or even differentiate the letter "d" from the letter "b". At that earlier time I could not understand why my parents were upset with a "b" on a report card (that was really a "d"). I have personally come a long way since then through a lot of personal sacrifice, restraint, perseverance, effort and force of will. I have chosen to be different than I originally was. I have a long way to go still to get to where I want to be (like we all do - except for the underachievers). From my own personal experience I have come to believe that intelligence and creativity and behaviors are truly learned things and relate to how we model and organize our thoughts and how we structure our attitudes. I firmly believe with proper discipline and self awareness (and self respect) we can adapt our perspective at will if we subordinate our preconceptions, social conditioning and emotions. I fundamentally believe that we "chose to be who we resolve to be" - spiritually, emotionally, intimately, socially and intellectually. I also believe that we can reject those things and behaviors that are not desirable or are unnatural or cause us harm etc. Life offers a buffet of competing ideals, standards and relations. I would recommend reconsidering if you like what you have come to think is your only option.

I am sure that in your case you have had many experiences in life and cause for reflection and introspection. Suffering hate is an opportuinty to test one's resolve and will more so than it is a time of suffering. If you are at all believing of my perspective and experience maybe you might want to reconsider some of what I am saying and see if you really have the desire to consider some changes? I would personally hate to think that I did not have the personal ability and freedom to be what I chose to be in life rather than a powerless victim to some hormonal or emotional short circuits that were experienced at an early age and caused me to congeal and lock in my own opinion of "who" I was at the "Id" level. I would rather die than be a victim to my own bodily cravings where I could not control my behavior and do things beyond my conscious control. There are certainly temptations in life but it is through discipline and self respect that we put the temptations into context and move on to bigger things.

Take Care John - I hope you can get beyond this thinking because I am confident that you can be much more than you currently are some day (we all can) if you can get the unimportant things behind you. You, and everyone on the planet has the capacity to be something more special than you can imagine if we can all just get past the simple stuff like self pleasures, physical joy and selfishness. We all need to move to the next level in humanity's evolution. Nature and all of Creation is screaming for us to move forward and get into the real action and opportunity waiting for out there.

Bye John & Hugs,
OD

Hi ID,

Honestly, I DO KNOW who I AM - as BORN. I am completely FINE with that too.

I would ask you - as one MAN to another MAN - to READ the book: FORBIDDEN FRIENDSHIPS, by Michael Rocke (Oxford University Press). Being an adult Male you DO have the absolute right to do so and it will not "rub off" on you somehow - trust me. If you are truly interested in UNDERSTANDING - UNDERSTANDING TRUTHFULLY - about Sexuality read this book and after you do let me know what you then think. Check out the bibliography too. See the sources used to write this book.

Take Care, John H.