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Twin Peak's Gettin' Large
- Thread starter Twin Peak
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I don't know much bout it either, it was supposed to be more of a joke than anything.
I know its pretty much illegal and can kill you, but works great as a fat loss tool. Something like increasing your's body's temperature thereby burning more cals. I think Sodium Usinate/Usnic Acid (i think they are the same thing) is basically DNP but weaker. Kindda like PH's to Gear i guess.
But take everything that i have said with a grain of salt, as i'm not much more knowledgeable than you on this subject TP. My main area of study is nutrition.
I know its pretty much illegal and can kill you, but works great as a fat loss tool. Something like increasing your's body's temperature thereby burning more cals. I think Sodium Usinate/Usnic Acid (i think they are the same thing) is basically DNP but weaker. Kindda like PH's to Gear i guess.
But take everything that i have said with a grain of salt, as i'm not much more knowledgeable than you on this subject TP. My main area of study is nutrition.
Well you need a few weeks to reset your gonads man, so until the cycle is done and you're "recovered" don't even think about it. Maybe wait until after christmas? That way you can still enjoy the spoils without the guilt?
EC is great. Tried, tested and proven.
Y can be good for stubborn fat so it's not really necessary until latter stages of a cut.
SU is a big step. Just because it's legal, don't take it lightly.
Don't even think about it.
SU/UA is pushing the boundary. DNP is off the scale.
I'd like to visit NY sometime, but not before the end of the year to kick your ass if you even consider the compound.
DNP ramps up your metabolism by about 30%. Which is fucking ridiculous to say the least.
It uncouples ATP very efficiently and fucks around with the energy expenditure in the mitochondria.
It'll make you feel like absolute shit.
It can seriously fuck you up. It basically cooks you from the inside out.
The 'recommended' dose for maximum fat loss is dangerously close to the lethal dose.
Severed Ties on WBB said it gave one of his friends cataracts.
Don't even consider it.
Wasn't considering it (yet) cuz I didn't even know what it was.
UA is still new to me so currently it is just under consideration. You have any good links or articles on it? I read the one DG referred to but haven't figured out why I shouldn't "take it lightly". Nor have I really figured out why I should take it. Care to impart any wisdom?
I'll save the Y for the end of my precontest cut (the last 4 or 6 weeks), maybe along with some 1-T to keep the gains. Any insight or thoughts in Lipoderm-Y? I think you used oral if I remember correctly.
And anytime you visit, definitely let me know.
UA is still new to me so currently it is just under consideration. You have any good links or articles on it? I read the one DG referred to but haven't figured out why I shouldn't "take it lightly". Nor have I really figured out why I should take it. Care to impart any wisdom?
I'll save the Y for the end of my precontest cut (the last 4 or 6 weeks), maybe along with some 1-T to keep the gains. Any insight or thoughts in Lipoderm-Y? I think you used oral if I remember correctly.
And anytime you visit, definitely let me know.
TP....this is the run down on DNP from Anabolic review.....you don`t wanna take this step.
The substance; 2, 4-Dinitrophenol has many other brand names such as, 1 Hydroxy-2,4-dinitrophenol, Solfo Black, Nitrophen, Aldifen, and Chemox are just a few and is among many things, a metabolic stimulant. That is it's popularity here in our world, it burns fat like no other. Let me just tell you of it's other uses before I continue. First, it is a toxic dye, chemically related to Trinitrophenol (Picric Acid), second, it is found in insecticides, wood preservatives, herbicides, explosives, and is also a hazardous material. Third, it is used in science to couple or attach to DNA molecules. All of this should tell you that it is not a run-of-the-mill metabolic stimulant, like Clenbuterol or Triacana or Ephedrine or any other for that matter. Here is DNP's tox faq's from the international chemical safety cards to you give an idea of what it is considered to be; Combustible. Gives off irritating or toxic fumes (or gases) in a fire. Risk of fire and explosion. DO NOT expose to friction or shock. MAY BE ABSORBED! Redness. Roughness. Yellow staining on the skin. PHYSICAL STATE; APPEARANCE: YELLOW CRYSTALS ROUTES OF EXPOSURE: The substance can be absorbed into the body by inhalation, through the skin and by ingestion. PHYSICAL DANGERS: Dust explosion possible if in powder or granular form, mixed with air. INHALATION RISK: Evaporation at 20°C is negligible; a harmful concentration of airborne particles can, however, be reached quickly. CHEMICAL DANGERS: May explosively decompose on shock, friction, or concussion. May explode on heating. Shock-sensitive compounds are formed with alkalis, ammonia and most metals. The substance decomposes on heating producing toxic gases including nitrogen oxides. EFFECT OF SHORT-TERM EXPOSURE: The substance may cause effects on metabolism, resulting in very high body temperature. Exposure may result in death. EFFECTS OF LONG TERM OR REPEATED EXPOSURE: Repeated or prolonged contact with skin may cause dermatitis. The substance may have effects on the peripheral nervous system. The substance may have effects on the eyes, resulting in cataracts. Boiling point: sublimes °C, Melting point: 112°C, Relative density (water = 1): 1.68. Solubility in water, g/100 ml at 54.5°C: 0.14. Relative vapor density (air = 1): 6.36. This product is handled and shipped in a 15% solution of water, making it a paste, so that it will not explode due to shock or friction.
DNP is an uncoupling agent that inhibits the flow of electrons and the pumping of H+ ions for ATP synthesis. Fifty years ago it was used for weight loss, however, in 1938 the FDA removed it from the counter, as it caused cataracts and even sometimes death. If electron transport does not produce ATP, then much more sugar must be metabolized for energy needs. Very low production of ATP would be lethal. In oxidative phosphorylation, the flow of electrons from NADH (the reduced form of NAD+, oxidized from NAD. This enzyme is important in accepting electrons in the course of metabolic reactions. When NAD+ gives up it's electron, it is converted to it's reduced form NADH) and FADH2 (the reduced form of FAD) to oxygen results in the pumping of H+ from the matrix to the inner membrane space of the mitochondria. This gradient of H+ can produce ATP by flowing through ATP synthetase in the mitochondrial inner membrane. Dinitrophenol disrupts the H+ gradient reducing ATP synthesis. Under these conditions, much of the food that we eat could not be used for ATP synthesis and we lose weight. However, too much inhibitor and we could make too little ATP for life. The difference between weight loss and death is only a small concentration change in dinitrophenol, making the drug dangerous. Simply put, this means that while eating your normal diet, you will have somewhere between 20% and 40% reduction of calories.
You may now be wondering just what kind of dose would be effective, but not harmful. A dose of 2mg/kg/day (or two mgs per kg of body weight per day) would be an effective dose, causing the loss of about 5 to 10 pounds in a 10 to 14 day period, maybe less. So, a person weighing 200 lbs would weigh about 91 kgs, so 2mgs per kg of body weight would be the equivalent of 182 mgs of DNP per day, but since it typically comes in 200 mg capsules, you would take one cap per day. Since DNP has this inhibiting effect, glycolosis is inhibited as well, causing a diabetic effect due to the conversion of glucose without insulin, so you may have heard that people take insulin with DNP. This will counter act the symptoms of lethargy and lack of energy due to DNP's use.
Finding DNP, this may be a little difficult as there are only two manufacturers of it. Sigma and Springfield scientific, though they do not generally sell to the public, it is still available. If you cannot find someone with capsules, you may try to get some bulk (somewhere around $20.00 - $30.00 per lb I think), but since this is considered a hazardous material, it cannot be conveniently or inconspicuously shipped (which for consumption is a felony), however, it is possible. However, to get use of the bulk/raw form, you will need to make your own capsules, which is a meticulous process.
The substance; 2, 4-Dinitrophenol has many other brand names such as, 1 Hydroxy-2,4-dinitrophenol, Solfo Black, Nitrophen, Aldifen, and Chemox are just a few and is among many things, a metabolic stimulant. That is it's popularity here in our world, it burns fat like no other. Let me just tell you of it's other uses before I continue. First, it is a toxic dye, chemically related to Trinitrophenol (Picric Acid), second, it is found in insecticides, wood preservatives, herbicides, explosives, and is also a hazardous material. Third, it is used in science to couple or attach to DNA molecules. All of this should tell you that it is not a run-of-the-mill metabolic stimulant, like Clenbuterol or Triacana or Ephedrine or any other for that matter. Here is DNP's tox faq's from the international chemical safety cards to you give an idea of what it is considered to be; Combustible. Gives off irritating or toxic fumes (or gases) in a fire. Risk of fire and explosion. DO NOT expose to friction or shock. MAY BE ABSORBED! Redness. Roughness. Yellow staining on the skin. PHYSICAL STATE; APPEARANCE: YELLOW CRYSTALS ROUTES OF EXPOSURE: The substance can be absorbed into the body by inhalation, through the skin and by ingestion. PHYSICAL DANGERS: Dust explosion possible if in powder or granular form, mixed with air. INHALATION RISK: Evaporation at 20°C is negligible; a harmful concentration of airborne particles can, however, be reached quickly. CHEMICAL DANGERS: May explosively decompose on shock, friction, or concussion. May explode on heating. Shock-sensitive compounds are formed with alkalis, ammonia and most metals. The substance decomposes on heating producing toxic gases including nitrogen oxides. EFFECT OF SHORT-TERM EXPOSURE: The substance may cause effects on metabolism, resulting in very high body temperature. Exposure may result in death. EFFECTS OF LONG TERM OR REPEATED EXPOSURE: Repeated or prolonged contact with skin may cause dermatitis. The substance may have effects on the peripheral nervous system. The substance may have effects on the eyes, resulting in cataracts. Boiling point: sublimes °C, Melting point: 112°C, Relative density (water = 1): 1.68. Solubility in water, g/100 ml at 54.5°C: 0.14. Relative vapor density (air = 1): 6.36. This product is handled and shipped in a 15% solution of water, making it a paste, so that it will not explode due to shock or friction.
DNP is an uncoupling agent that inhibits the flow of electrons and the pumping of H+ ions for ATP synthesis. Fifty years ago it was used for weight loss, however, in 1938 the FDA removed it from the counter, as it caused cataracts and even sometimes death. If electron transport does not produce ATP, then much more sugar must be metabolized for energy needs. Very low production of ATP would be lethal. In oxidative phosphorylation, the flow of electrons from NADH (the reduced form of NAD+, oxidized from NAD. This enzyme is important in accepting electrons in the course of metabolic reactions. When NAD+ gives up it's electron, it is converted to it's reduced form NADH) and FADH2 (the reduced form of FAD) to oxygen results in the pumping of H+ from the matrix to the inner membrane space of the mitochondria. This gradient of H+ can produce ATP by flowing through ATP synthetase in the mitochondrial inner membrane. Dinitrophenol disrupts the H+ gradient reducing ATP synthesis. Under these conditions, much of the food that we eat could not be used for ATP synthesis and we lose weight. However, too much inhibitor and we could make too little ATP for life. The difference between weight loss and death is only a small concentration change in dinitrophenol, making the drug dangerous. Simply put, this means that while eating your normal diet, you will have somewhere between 20% and 40% reduction of calories.
You may now be wondering just what kind of dose would be effective, but not harmful. A dose of 2mg/kg/day (or two mgs per kg of body weight per day) would be an effective dose, causing the loss of about 5 to 10 pounds in a 10 to 14 day period, maybe less. So, a person weighing 200 lbs would weigh about 91 kgs, so 2mgs per kg of body weight would be the equivalent of 182 mgs of DNP per day, but since it typically comes in 200 mg capsules, you would take one cap per day. Since DNP has this inhibiting effect, glycolosis is inhibited as well, causing a diabetic effect due to the conversion of glucose without insulin, so you may have heard that people take insulin with DNP. This will counter act the symptoms of lethargy and lack of energy due to DNP's use.
Finding DNP, this may be a little difficult as there are only two manufacturers of it. Sigma and Springfield scientific, though they do not generally sell to the public, it is still available. If you cannot find someone with capsules, you may try to get some bulk (somewhere around $20.00 - $30.00 per lb I think), but since this is considered a hazardous material, it cannot be conveniently or inconspicuously shipped (which for consumption is a felony), however, it is possible. However, to get use of the bulk/raw form, you will need to make your own capsules, which is a meticulous process.
lol 
Yeah i used oral YHCL.
Next cut i really wanna try topical Y. especially an avantlabs product.
I'm kinda holding out for the Ultra-Lipoderm-Y, which is an updated product with extra goodies for better fat loss. Again, best saved for stubborn fat deposits.
I wanna try FL7 too.
Wednesday, November 13, 2002
Okay, so I kept the cals yesterday to around 4000. This morning I did legs and back both low volume. The leg w/o felt good, good pump, etc. Back was ehh. My strength has regressed on all exercises, but my weight was still 217.
Overall, I looked flat today. Not vascular at all and quite smooth. The only thing that looked bigger was my stomach. Oh well, I am taking measurements and pics and am going to stick this out.
On the bright side, my shoulder is beginning to feel better. I am hoping it is perfect for Monday???s chest workout so that I can go for some new PBs. I am loading up on Glucosamine and Chondrotin.
I have also been doing quite a bit of thinking about what???s next, keeping in mind I???d like to compete next June. I have been thinking a lot about cycling my next PH stack, as well as my intensity, volume, and calories. I am thinking of three weeks bulk and 2 weeks cut, for a 5 week cycle. Here is what I am considering:
....................Supps..........Cals................W/O Volume
Week 1.......PH Stack.......3600.......Heavy, High Vol, Failure
Week 2.......PH Stack.......3200.......Heavy, Low Vol, Failure
Week 3.......PH Stack.......3600.......Heavy, High Vol, Failure
Week 4.......EC and UA.....3000......Upper Body Once (no arms)
...................Creatine......................Lower Body and Arms Once
...................Glutimine
...................ALA
Week 5.......EC and UA......2600.......Light, High Vol, High Reps,
....................Creatine............................No failure
....................Glutimine
....................ALA
Depending on my body fat levels after 2 such cycles I???d either do a third or go right into a pure precontest cut. The heavy, high vol, would be like what I am supposed to be doing now, the low vol is 5-7 sets per BP once per week, and the light would be training in the 10-15 rep range instead of my typical 5-8.
I haven???t figured out my PH stack yet but the contestants are 1-T, Nor-diol (the Nor version of 4 AD), 4 AD, and 1, 4 AD (boldione).
Thoughts?
Okay, so I kept the cals yesterday to around 4000. This morning I did legs and back both low volume. The leg w/o felt good, good pump, etc. Back was ehh. My strength has regressed on all exercises, but my weight was still 217.
Overall, I looked flat today. Not vascular at all and quite smooth. The only thing that looked bigger was my stomach. Oh well, I am taking measurements and pics and am going to stick this out.
On the bright side, my shoulder is beginning to feel better. I am hoping it is perfect for Monday???s chest workout so that I can go for some new PBs. I am loading up on Glucosamine and Chondrotin.
I have also been doing quite a bit of thinking about what???s next, keeping in mind I???d like to compete next June. I have been thinking a lot about cycling my next PH stack, as well as my intensity, volume, and calories. I am thinking of three weeks bulk and 2 weeks cut, for a 5 week cycle. Here is what I am considering:
....................Supps..........Cals................W/O Volume
Week 1.......PH Stack.......3600.......Heavy, High Vol, Failure
Week 2.......PH Stack.......3200.......Heavy, Low Vol, Failure
Week 3.......PH Stack.......3600.......Heavy, High Vol, Failure
Week 4.......EC and UA.....3000......Upper Body Once (no arms)
...................Creatine......................Lower Body and Arms Once
...................Glutimine
...................ALA
Week 5.......EC and UA......2600.......Light, High Vol, High Reps,
....................Creatine............................No failure
....................Glutimine
....................ALA
Depending on my body fat levels after 2 such cycles I???d either do a third or go right into a pure precontest cut. The heavy, high vol, would be like what I am supposed to be doing now, the low vol is 5-7 sets per BP once per week, and the light would be training in the 10-15 rep range instead of my typical 5-8.
I haven???t figured out my PH stack yet but the contestants are 1-T, Nor-diol (the Nor version of 4 AD), 4 AD, and 1, 4 AD (boldione).
Thoughts?
Rob, that's the only comment?
Can we discuss calroie deficit? You assume that 3000 cals for me is a deficit right? I am not so sure. I think that this experiment confirms what I have always believed. That my basal metabolic rate is below what it should be for someone my size.
Do you believe/not believe that that is physiologically possible?
I have always need to be fairly low cals to maintain a relatively high weigh -- in the mid 2000s just to stay UNDER 210.
Well, maybe i used the term deficit a bit too loosely. But describing the second two weeks as a "cut" you'd usually associate with calorie deficit.
And of course your BMR can vary with others the same size. Genetics and all sorts of factors play a role.
But still, PH/PS affect your gonads. Coming off them with lower calories ain't the best method of retaining gains made during the surplus.
Ah, okay. So you concern is simply retaining gains made during the three weeks. Wouldn't this be a concern though with any cyclical (bulk/cut) diet or training program? Why would this be a greater concern after taking PH/PS?
I do see you point in general however. Though I do not see how concern of losing gains is or should be any immediately after a PH/PS cycle versus any other time. While I do want to hear your reasons, unless they are VERY convincing, I think I am going to give this a shot. If nothing else it'll make for an interesting experiment no?
BTW, I wasn't trying to be a wise-ass, we have never discussed metoblic rates before (not that I am opposed to being a wise-ass).
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not really an expert on this, but i'll give it a shot.
The gains that you made with PH/PS you were able to make because you have supraphysiological levels of test in your system. Once you go off of whatever PH you are taking, your test levels drop and you have to work extremely hard to hold on to that muscle that you have just gained. Dropping calories might negate your whole 'on' cycle.
Another reason would be the recovery of natural test production. After 2 weeks of exogenous test entering the body and bringing the total test to supraphysiological levels your HPTA axis declines and you have less naturally occurring test in your system, your nuts also shrink. When coming off of a cycle you need to give your body time to recover its natural test, the length of post cycle therapy depends on the time 'on' you spent. I'm pretty sure that in order to regain natural test faster, you need surplus cals, as a cal deficit might actually decrease test.
This is just an educated guess though.
The gains that you made with PH/PS you were able to make because you have supraphysiological levels of test in your system. Once you go off of whatever PH you are taking, your test levels drop and you have to work extremely hard to hold on to that muscle that you have just gained. Dropping calories might negate your whole 'on' cycle.
Another reason would be the recovery of natural test production. After 2 weeks of exogenous test entering the body and bringing the total test to supraphysiological levels your HPTA axis declines and you have less naturally occurring test in your system, your nuts also shrink. When coming off of a cycle you need to give your body time to recover its natural test, the length of post cycle therapy depends on the time 'on' you spent. I'm pretty sure that in order to regain natural test faster, you need surplus cals, as a cal deficit might actually decrease test.
This is just an educated guess though.
Wow, did Yank swallow a mannual or something?! 
Yes, the calories are to retain muscle.
PH/PS over that period of time will suppress your janglies.
They'll sort themselves out a lot quicker with a surplus of calories than with restricted calories.
If you're restricting cals with suppressed T levels, chances are cortisol will be moving around more freely, and protein degradation will most likely be exceeding (or be very close) protein sythesis at the muscular level.
Basically, everything that yan said.
If you're gonna spend upwards of hundreds of dollars on something to give you extra muscle, why jeopardise it with semi-foolish post cycle therapy?
If you're gonna do it then fair enough. But the sake of 2 weeks cutting time in order to fully restore your endocrine system (or close enough) hardly seems like a bad trade off compared to potentially wasting hundreds of dollars.
Then again you may prove me totally wrong.
And be a wise-ass. It makes me laugh.
Yes, the calories are to retain muscle.
PH/PS over that period of time will suppress your janglies.
They'll sort themselves out a lot quicker with a surplus of calories than with restricted calories.
If you're restricting cals with suppressed T levels, chances are cortisol will be moving around more freely, and protein degradation will most likely be exceeding (or be very close) protein sythesis at the muscular level.
Basically, everything that yan said.
If you're gonna spend upwards of hundreds of dollars on something to give you extra muscle, why jeopardise it with semi-foolish post cycle therapy?
If you're gonna do it then fair enough. But the sake of 2 weeks cutting time in order to fully restore your endocrine system (or close enough) hardly seems like a bad trade off compared to potentially wasting hundreds of dollars.
Then again you may prove me totally wrong.
And be a wise-ass. It makes me laugh.
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Wow, did Yank swallow a mannual or something?!
....
Basically, everything that yan said.
If you're gonna spend upwards of hundreds of dollars on something to give you extra muscle, why jeopardise it with semi-foolish post cycle therapy?
If you're gonna do it then fair enough. But the sake of 2 weeks cutting time in order to fully restore your endocrine system (or close enough) hardly seems like a bad trade off compared to potentially wasting hundreds of dollars.
Then again you may prove me totally wrong.
And be a wise-ass. It makes me laugh.
That's my goal! Actually, its only a few hundred cals drop. And I'll be getting near the time of my contest (if I do one) so I want to keep BF low and gains dry. Plus the lower my BF the longer I can put off all out cutting.
Finally, here is my reasoning, tell me if I am wrong. If 1T supports greater food quantities than you can consume w/o gaining BF and you continue to eat that amount post 1T then won't you be eating more cals than your body can burn and add fat as a consequence during your post cycle?
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Hey TP,
i have an idea for you. Why not do what Tkarrde did on Avant? Basically he cut but included re-feeds. The days that you cut would be cuts and on re-feeds you work hard and eat a lot to build as much muscle as possible.
I think 6-oxo would be a good idea if your planning on cutting during your off cycles.
i have an idea for you. Why not do what Tkarrde did on Avant? Basically he cut but included re-feeds. The days that you cut would be cuts and on re-feeds you work hard and eat a lot to build as much muscle as possible.
I think 6-oxo would be a good idea if your planning on cutting during your off cycles.
Cut plus refeeds as in an NHE? Or just had say 2 higher calorie day during the week? I am only going a few hundred cals less per day, so I am not sure that is in order.
What results did he have?
Here is my goal:
-add significant strength during the 3 weeks on (say 30 pounds per exercise for the biggies)
-maintain for the 2 weeks and drop a couple pounds of water
-begin the next 3 week cycle where I left off and add say another 30 pounds.
I think it can be done. Specially, if I add in glut, BCAAs, and creatine and continue with a great post w/o meal.
We shall see.
Unless, of course, I change my mind!
What results did he have?
Here is my goal:
-add significant strength during the 3 weeks on (say 30 pounds per exercise for the biggies)
-maintain for the 2 weeks and drop a couple pounds of water
-begin the next 3 week cycle where I left off and add say another 30 pounds.
I think it can be done. Specially, if I add in glut, BCAAs, and creatine and continue with a great post w/o meal.
We shall see.
Unless, of course, I change my mind!
BTW< I found half a bottle of a cheap PH stack. Each pill has 50mg of 19-Nor, 50mg 4-dione and 500 trib.
I have 30 pills or 5 days at 6 per day. Think I am going to take them next week, week 5 in my cycle. Might as well use em -- better than throwing them out!
I have 30 pills or 5 days at 6 per day. Think I am going to take them next week, week 5 in my cycle. Might as well use em -- better than throwing them out!
NHE has carb loads not refeeds.
There's not a dictionary definition between them, but i reckon there's a broad margin of difference. Either phrase gets thrown about loosely.
Any cut you do should feature some sort of cyclical carb loading or refeeding.
There's not a dictionary definition between them, but i reckon there's a broad margin of difference. Either phrase gets thrown about loosely.
Any cut you do should feature some sort of cyclical carb loading or refeeding.
I have always used these terms rather loosely and definitely interchangeably. But I think I get the diff now that you force me to think about it. A refeed, I would suppose, could mean fueling the body with more calories after a period of restriction. The cals could come in any combination of macros.
A carb-load would mean refueling the body with carbs after a period of restricted carbs.
If you buy into that distiction then, a carb load is a form of a refeed, but a refeed is not necessarily a carb load. If you don't buy into a that distiction then I am lost.
I totally agree. I have never recommended a cut that does not include this.
BTW, I have revamped what I intend to do after the new year. I'll type it up and post it in a jiff.
You're close enough, but here's how i define them:
Carb load = One or two meals before bed, focusing on carbs alone in a bid to regulate thyroid hormones and refill glycogen after periods of low carbs. Usually performed about twice a week.
Refeed = Purposely aiming to over-eat carbs and spill over into fat cells in a bid to promote leptin signalling. Can be done on isocaloric or low carb diet.
Carb load = One or two meals before bed, focusing on carbs alone in a bid to regulate thyroid hormones and refill glycogen after periods of low carbs. Usually performed about twice a week.
Refeed = Purposely aiming to over-eat carbs and spill over into fat cells in a bid to promote leptin signalling. Can be done on isocaloric or low carb diet.
