Vibrant's first cycle starts

[Vibrant]

Hey Bros
Today i started my first cycle consisting of:

Weeks 1-8 GP Test Prop @ 500mg a week, Inj eod
Weeks 5-8 axio Tbol @ 40-50mg a day (still unsure If im gonna use it, will see how it goes)

For an AI I will use Adex @ 0.5 eod

Pct will start 3-4 days after last Inj. consisting of Clomid/Nolva

My stats: 24y
6"1
187lb BF probably 9%
I know many of you will think Im too small to start aas but Ive been around this weight for the last two years. The reason I dont gain more weight no matter how I vary my diet is because I work in a fairly high cardio sport. I get about 3-4 hours of fairly high intensity cardio each day. To PRIME for this cycle I bulked as high as I could go at 191lb and in the last weeks I cut around 4-6lbs without losing any strength.

My goals for this cycle:
Gain 7-10 lean pounds that I keep after PCT. That is the most important to me that I keep my gains after pct.

Ok, did my first injection in the thigh today with a 25g. I gotta be honest with you all, i was extremely nervous 10min before my injection. I probably grew a vagina before the shot. But to my surprise it was mostly pain free. I was at myself after the shot and thinking what a pussy I was....

If you guys have any critique for me, dont hold back. I will update progress at least once week and post some reviews of GP products.

 

[TGB1987]

Ok sounds like you have a decent base. What made you use Prop instead of a cyp or enanthate? Are you injecting EOD? The tbol I would probably hold off on because Prop at 500mg is pretty strong for a first cycle. Prop is more potent per mg than cyp or enanthate. So I think you should make great gains off of the prop alone. If you want to throw the tbol in though I guess it is not that big of an issue. Arimidex is fine for your AI. I am glad that you primed for your cycle. That alone will help make your cycle more productive. The only issue I have is that you should have Aromasin included in your PCT aromasin is a type I AI which is different from adex. This makes it great for PCT to prevent Estro rebound from the SERMS. Also Clomid and Nolva do not lower estro. They actually act as an estrogen in the liver. This means your Estro can be high while taking these compounds. This is where aromasin comes in. I would use Clomid and aromasin at these doses 100mg/100mg/75mg/50mg clomid, 25mg/25mg/25mg/12.5mg aromasin. Keep the nolva in case you have a case of gyno pop up in the future. Just my opinion to make this cycle better. Using aromasin can help keep gains which is very important to any cycle. Everything else looks to be ok to me.

 

[Vibrant]

I chose prop because it kicks in faster and I don't want a cycle longer than 8 weeks. I am gonna be injecting every other day. I'm gonna see if my gains are good and sides are low and then I will decide on the tbol. Thanks for the aromasim advice, I will order it.

 

[TGB1987]

Sounds good. Good luck with your cycle. Short cycles are nice and IMO it is easier to recover from. Keep us posted.

 

[VictorZ06]

^+1...no need for nolva.



/V

 

[Vibrant]

thanks guys. I will keep everyone posted. One thing I was surprised about though is that the injection was pretty much painless.

 

[TGB1987]

If you hit the right spot you will feel nothing but don't expect them all to be this way. Every now and then you will get one that hurts a little more. Check out www.spotinjections.com to see the areas you want to stay in. I would recommend staying with the simplest sites for your first cycle glute, shoulder,and outer quad.
If you need anything else let us know.

 

[Vibrant]

I'm gonna stick to quads and glutes. Im gonna do quads myself and I have someone to do glutes for me. I already checked that website and numerous others in preparation for this cycle. Thanks for the help.

 

[Vibrant]

Just wanted to give a quick update:
Did my second pin today in my quad. when I pin, i get pretty much no pain probably because I'm using 25 gauge needles. But about 8-9 hours after my first two pins it feels like a horse kicked me in the quads. I guess this is the test prop starting to absorb in the muscle?
My workout was pretty good today. It was tough because of the quad pain but I got a couple extra reps on each my heaviest weights. I got a question fire you all: is it okay to exercise the muscle you pinned even though it hurts?

 

[VonEric]

I would move the injections so you don't work out in areas your sore. Just my opinion but it wont hurt anything.. well except where it hurts lol ... Also i'd drop the nolva

 

[TGB1987]

Yes it is ok to exercise the muscle if it is sore from pinning IMO. It will get blood into the muscle. Your muscles are not used to absorbing the AAS so they will be sore at first but by the end of the cycle they will get used to it.

 

[Vibrant]

Yes it is ok to exercise the muscle if it is sore from pinning IMO. It will get blood into the muscle. Your muscles are not used to absorbing the AAS so they will be sore at first but by the end of the cycle they will get used to it.

Thanks man. I was starting to think I wouldn't be able to take this for eight weeks even though I have a high tolerance for pain. When do people usually start feeling the effects of prop? I had a great workout today but I think it was more of a "placebo effect".

 

[TGB1987]

You will notice results pretty quickly. I would say within a few days to two weeks at the most. It is a very fast ester. You will feel the effects soon. Hang in there with the pain. The legs are always the worst for most when you run your first cycle.

 

[SloppyJ]

I would use Clomid and aromasin at these doses 100mg/100mg/75mg/50mg clomid, 25mg/25mg/25mg/12.5mg aromasin.

TGB, for PCT aromasin dosages you reccomend 25mg/D?

Dear god. Im 4 days out and just switched from adex to aromasin to enhance my PCT. I took a 25mg dose last night and planned to continue on 12.5 EOD which seemed to be the normal dosage.

Help is appreciated. There isn't much info on PCT dosages and it's pretty conflicting.


OP, sorry for the hijack but it might be relivent to you when PCT comes around.

 

[XYZ]

I chose prop because it kicks in faster and I don't want a cycle longer than 8 weeks. I am gonna be injecting every other day. I'm gonna see if my gains are good and sides are low and then I will decide on the tbol. Thanks for the aromasim advice, I will order it.

Inject the prop ED - blood levels stay more stable. 50mg ED.

 

[Vibrant]

TGB, for PCT aromasin dosages you reccomend 25mg/D?

Dear god. Im 4 days out and just switched from adex to aromasin to enhance my PCT. I took a 25mg dose last night and planned to continue on 12.5 EOD which seemed to be the normal dosage.

Help is appreciated. There isn't much info on PCT dosages and it's pretty conflicting.


OP, sorry for the hijack but it might be relivent to you when PCT comes around.

No problem. Actually, I wanna know more about this too. For example why is aromasin better than adex for pct. I know that adex reduces estrogen by about 50% and aromasin by about 80%.

 

[SloppyJ]

No problem. Actually, I wanna know more about this too. For example why is aromasin better than adex for pct. I know that adex reduces estrogen by about 50% and aromasin by about 80%.

Aromasin is actually less than that. It's better for PCT because it helps increase LH levels to get your balls back in production faster. I believe it's LH levels.

 

[Vibrant]

Inject the prop ED - blood levels stay more stable. 50mg ED.

I don't think I can handle pinning ed yet. maybe in a couple of weeks I'll switch to ed but from what I read most say that eod is ok for prop.

 

[Vibrant]

Aromasin is actually less than that. It's better for PCT because it helps increase LH levels to get your balls back in production faster. I believe it's LH levels.

Sounds good, I'm all for a better pct.

 

[alphabolic]

TGB, for PCT aromasin dosages you reccomend 25mg/D?

Dear god. Im 4 days out and just switched from adex to aromasin to enhance my PCT. I took a 25mg dose last night and planned to continue on 12.5 EOD which seemed to be the normal dosage.

Help is appreciated. There isn't much info on PCT dosages and it's pretty conflicting.


OP, sorry for the hijack but it might be relivent to you when PCT comes around.

yea 25mg a day of aromasin seems pretty high if you only need 12.5 eod during cycle. but im running an extremely similar first cycle to OP's but at 400mg prop a week.

i also hear it's okay to run nolva with aromasin and clomid for PCT whereas nolva and a-dex dont go well together. now i guess im gonna have to order some aromasin...

 

[XYZ]

I don't think I can handle pinning ed yet. maybe in a couple of weeks I'll switch to ed but from what I read most say that eod is ok for prop.

Use the slin pin method.

 

[TGB1987]

yea 25mg a day of aromasin seems pretty high if you only need 12.5 eod during cycle. but im running an extremely similar first cycle to OP's but at 400mg prop a week.

i also hear it's okay to run nolva with aromasin and clomid for PCT whereas nolva and a-dex dont go well together. now i guess im gonna have to order some aromasin...

First I want to say that prop is not usually suggested for first cycle because of frequent injections. This is why we recommend a test cyp or enanthate. But prop is ok you just have to deal with frequent injections. What CT said about ed injects is correct much more stable. ON to aromasin. Alphabolic you are correct about aromasin working better with nolva than adex. Aromasin is a type I AI which means it is a steroidal AI. Adex is a type II I am going to post an article on this scenario at the end of this post so hang in there. SloppyJ I use 12.5mg of aromasin eod while on cycle. For PCT I use 25mg ed but you could also run it at 12.5 mg ed for the first 2 weeks then up it to 25mg ed for the last two weeks of PCT as you drop the dose of clomid. Aromasin will prevent estrogen rebound. I know the doses seem high for PCT but aromasin will actually boost test by 60%. Also if you go back to HeavyIron's first cycle and PCT sticky my doses are very similar to what he recommends for PCT. You are right sloppyj about aromasin not lowering estro by 80% in men. This is overstated and my be true for women (not sure about that either) but is not the case for men. Ok so I am going to find a couple of studies and articles on this issue post them in a few minutes.

 

[TGB1987]

Rationale for the Use of Aromasin with Tamoxifen During Post Cycle Therapy

by Anthony Roberts

​

But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?
I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for post cycle therapy (PCT), since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.
Aromasin with Nolvadex
I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.
This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.
Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?
Difference Between Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitors
To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).
Conclusion
Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).
Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our cycles.
References:

1. Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.
2. 2. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60.
3. [Clinical aspects of estrogen and bone metabolism] Clin Calcium. 2002 Sep;12(9):1246-51. Japanese.
   [*]Science, Vol 283, Issue 5406, 1277-1278 , 26 February 1999
   [*]J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"
   [*]Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7
   [*] J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80
   [*].J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):85-91.
   [*]The Oncologist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 126–136, April 2004
   [*]Zilembo N., Noberasco C., Bajetta E., Martinetti A., Mariani L., Orefici S. Endocrinological and clinical evaluation of exemestane, a new steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Br. J. Cancer, 72: 1007-1012, 1995
   [*]Clinical Cancer Research Vol. 10, 1943-1948, March 2004
   [*]The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956
   Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society

Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/aromasin-exemestane.htm#ixzz1GmL3TaWo



Now this is a slightly older article and nowadays most people believe Clomid is better for PCT instead of nolvadex. Nolva is better for preventing Gyno. I chose this article because it talks a lot about aromasin and how it works. So try to focus on that part.​

 

[TGB1987]

by Bill Roberts

Receptor blockers
Clomiphene (Clomid) and tamoxifen (Nolvadex) are the most popular drugs of this class. They are more precisely referred to as "selective estrogen receptor modulators." This is because their mode of action is not so simple as merely blocking the estrogen receptor. Estrogen receptors require not only hormone but also activation of regions of the receptor called AF-1 and AF-2. AF-1, to be activated, requires phosphorylation, while AF-2 can be activated by any of a number of cofactors, such as IGF-1.
As it happens, clomiphene and tamoxifen are estrogen receptor antagonists (blockers) in cells that depend on activation of the AF-2 region, while in cells which activate AF-1, these compounds are estrogens.
In some cells these drugs activate one of the types of estrogen receptor (ERa ) but are antagonists of the other type (ERb ).
The result is that these compounds are antiestrogenic in breast tissue, fat tissue, and in the hypothalamus, which is what we want in bodybuilding, but are estrogenic in bone tissue and with respect to favorable effect on blood lipid profile, both of which are, again, desirable. They also appear to have some estrogenic effect on mood, though this may be in only parts of the brain (the matter is not studied.)
Cyclofenil is a similar drug to the above two. Clomiphene will do everything that the other two will do, but for some unknown reason, has been found more effective than tamoxifen both medically and in bodybuilding for increasing LH production.
Raloxifene (Evista) is a new selective estrogen receptor modulator that, for women, has the advantage of being an antiestrogen in the uterus, whereas clomiphene and tamoxifen are estrogens in that tissue. For this reason, the latter two drugs can promote uterine cancer, while raloxifene actually should help prevent it, and is therefore a superior drug for women. It is not known how effective it may be in increasing LH production.
While on high dose androgens it is impossible to maintain LH production in any case, and clomiphene can do no good in that regard. As androgen levels return to normal, however, a dose of 50 mg/day of clomiphene if estrogen levels are reasonable, or 100 mg/day if estrogen levels are high, is usually effective in restoring natural testosterone production.
Because the drug has a long half-life, when one takes 50 mg/day the amount in the system is not only the 50 mg just taken, but also approximately another 250 mg from previous days. Thus, to immediately arrive at the therapeutic level, one would take 300 mg (50 mg six times) on the first day, and then continue with 50 mg/day.
A small percentage of individuals suffer vision problems from use of clomiphene, which is generally reversible upon discontinuance. These persons, of course, should not use the drug after discovering the problem.
It also must be pointed out that these are prescription drugs, and should be obtained and used only by precription with medical advice, though the selective estrogen receptor modulators have excellent safety records.
After a cycle, it is reasonable to continue clomiphene use until at least four weeks after the last injection of long acting ester, or at least two weeks after the last use of an oral, or until natural testosterone production is clearly back to normal, whichever comes last.
Conclusion
Other than acne and accelerated hair loss, the two most common problems of AAS use are gynecomastia and difficulty in recovering natural testosterone production. Antiestrogenic drugs can effectively address both problems and are safe for most individuals. Ideally, if aromatizable drugs are used, the problem is corrected at the source by limiting production of estrogen by using an aromatase inhibitor. However, it is also effective to use a selective estrogen receptor modulator such as Clomid. The latter drug is also of particular use in helping to restore natural testosterone production after a cycle.


Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: Antiestrogens by Bill Roberts​

 

[SloppyJ]

Thank you TGB!

 

[Vibrant]

Great posts tgb. My pct will consist of clomid and aromasin.

 

[WallsOfJericho]

Please post up pics, wherever i go there are threads like this, and you never get to see the progress/end result, would be cool.

 

[TGB1987]

Great posts tgb. My pct will consist of clomid and aromasin.

That is your best bet IMO. Hope this helped you guys understand Aromasin a little better.

 

[alphabolic]

That is your best bet IMO. Hope this helped you guys understand Aromasin a little better.

it definately did. im about to start my cycle, im just waiting for my a-dex, clomid, and HCG since i have the prop and nolva already. gonna get some aromasin ASAP for pct. but if for some reason i dont get the aromasin in time for pct, would it really be that bad to run the standard nolva + clomid?

i'd have plenty of a-dex if i wanted to run it all the way through pct but not sure if i can run it with the nolva since the general consensus is that those 2 together are counter-productive.

 

[TGB1987]

If you had to run clomid, nolva together. You could have an ok PCT. I would run the adex with it as well but it will not be as good a with aromasin. Clomid and Nolva are SERMs not AIs so they will not help E2 levels. They just block estrogen in certain areas. Adex is a type II AI which will help E2 but is not as effective when ran with nolva. So this hurts PCT also Adex nolva and clomid can allow a estro rebound when you end the compounds. This is where aromasin shines. It prevents you from having an estrogen rebound.