Which is better?

[BringDaBlitz94]

Which do you guys think is better:
A) Lose fat, then gain muscle
B) Gain muscle, then try to lose fat
C) Try to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time

 

[Gazhole]

Which do you guys think is better:
A) Lose fat, then gain muscle
B) Gain muscle, then try to lose fat
C) Try to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time

Well "C" is impossible, for a start.

As for the best, in what way do you mean?

If you're going to go down the bulk, cut, bulk, cut route then it doesnt make sense to cut first, because in a caloric surplus required to put on muscle you'll more than likely put on fat aswell.

That is unless you just manage your diet, eat somewhat cleanly, and bulk slowly so as not to put on a great deal of fat. It takes longer, but you don't have to cut at the end of it.

 

[CowPimp]

Are you fat right now? Go with A.

Are you lean right now? Go with B.

Are you somewhere in the middle? Then go with whichever one you want to do more currently, and then when you become fat or lean, go with the appropriate option.

 

[Protheus]

Well "C" is impossible, for a start.

As for the best, in what way do you mean?

If you're going to go down the bulk, cut, bulk, cut route then it doesnt make sense to cut first, because in a caloric surplus required to put on muscle you'll more than likely put on fat aswell.

That is unless you just manage your diet, eat somewhat cleanly, and bulk slowly so as not to put on a great deal of fat. It takes longer, but you don't have to cut at the end of it.

I have to disagree with the 'impossible' statement. I have seen several studies where the participants gained lean mass and strength, while losing significant bodyfat. Surely fat deposits are essentially a pool of untapped calories, there to be used when the body requires them. It might be harder, but it can be done.

For example:

HighIntensity.net View Mike Mentzer Bodybuilding Topic

Scroll down and have a look at the results. These were measured in a bodypod. The results do not lie. These were also men and women with training experience, not newbies.

 

[Gazhole]

I have to disagree with the 'impossible' statement. I have seen several studies where the participants gained lean mass and strength, while losing significant bodyfat. Surely fat deposits are essentially a pool of untapped calories, there to be used when the body requires them. It might be harder, but it can be done.

For example:

HighIntensity.net View Mike Mentzer Bodybuilding Topic

Scroll down and have a look at the results. These were measured in a bodypod. The results do not lie. These were also men and women with training experience, not newbies.

Lets look at it logically.

How do you lose weight? - Have more calories going out than you have going in.

How do you gain weight? - Have more calories coming in than you have going out.

Can you do both at the same time? - No.

The study doesnt say what theyd been doing beforehand, what their diets were befordhand, we just have to take their word for it that these people were accustomed to "high intensity training".

It doesnt even give you any information on how much muscle they supposedly gained, just that they "gained muscle" and its not mentioned again in the article.

Besides, if they lost muscle for the first 6 weeks, then gained some in the last week, wouldnt that put them in an overall loss of muscle over the 7 week period?

Whats the point of that?

Its possible to lose fat without LOSING muscle, but as for losing fat and GAINING muscle thats reserved for either the superhumanly genetically gifted or steroid users or both, and even then i dont think its possible.

 

[tucker01]

Or newbies

 

[danzik17]

That too.

Personally I am going to cut and get down to single digits (eventually, probably after graduation), then do very slow bulking so that I can minimize fat gains.

It's really all personal preference to what you do - I don't mind progress being slow going, I would rather not put a lot of fat on.

 

[Gazhole]

Or newbies

Or newbies

 

[Protheus]

Lets look at it logically.

How do you lose weight? - Have more calories going out than you have going in.

How do you gain weight? - Have more calories coming in than you have going out.

Can you do both at the same time? - No.

The study doesnt say what theyd been doing beforehand, what their diets were befordhand, we just have to take their word for it that these people were accustomed to "high intensity training".

It doesnt even give you any information on how much muscle they supposedly gained, just that they "gained muscle" and its not mentioned again in the article.

Besides, if they lost muscle for the first 6 weeks, then gained some in the last week, wouldnt that put them in an overall loss of muscle over the 7 week period?

Whats the point of that?

Its possible to lose fat without LOSING muscle, but as for losing fat and GAINING muscle thats reserved for either the superhumanly genetically gifted or steroid users or both, and even then i dont think its possible.

Whether they gained or lost overall would depend upon the summation for each week over the entire 10 weeks. Seven small losses, plus 3 comparitively large gains could amount to an overall gain depending on magnitudes.

Explain to me why the body won't draw upon the calories it has stored if needed for - why do they have to come from an external source ?

My partner has reduced her %BF by 4% whilst maintaining the same gross bodyweight and increasing her strength quite a bit through weight training. I had assumed this was because she had lost fat but gained muscle ?

Impossible means just that - impossible - newbie or no newbie.

 

[Irons77]

You can gain strength but not mass during a cut, They look bigger because they stand out more without the fat on top of them.

 

[Gazhole]

Whether they gained or lost overall would depend upon the summation for each week over the entire 10 weeks. Seven small losses, plus 3 comparitively large gains could amount to an overall gain depending on magnitudes.

Explain to me why the body won't draw upon the calories it has stored if needed for - why do they have to come from an external source ?

My partner has reduced her %BF by 4% whilst maintaining the same gross bodyweight and increasing her strength quite a bit through weight training. I had assumed this was because she had lost fat but gained muscle ?

Impossible means just that - impossible - newbie or no newbie.

Newbies can do it for a short period because they've done no real physical activity before, but then again they're not really trying to put on muscle or lose fat, its just because of the sudden new stimulus of exercise that causes both to happen.

Its a special time, lol

Increasing strength while cutting is fine, strength doesnt just come from increased muscle mass, it comes from neurological adaptations aswell, so thats totally possible. How are you measuring her bodyfat? Has she been training long?

And about the study - exactly my point, they havent told you how much loss/gain happened at each stage. They've left far too much out for my liking.

 

[Protheus]

I don't think the results in the link I posted are complete - you would have to read the thread from the beginning and try find the full text of the study they are referring to - I'll try to do this myself when I get time.

BF by skin calipers and also some fancy machine that sends electrical signals through multiple points on the body - not just the legs like some I have seen before. Both give more or less the same reading, the machine slightly higher.

She isn't entirely new to training - but shes been more consistent and trained harder and more frequently as of late (few months), instead of casual, with some encouraging results.

I can appreciate that the best thing to do is try for one or the other, so you don't make a rod for your own back, but 'impossible' just seems so absolute. 'Highly improbable and not advised' might be a better way to put it.

You got your bases covered then as well

 

[Gazhole]

I don't think the results in the link I posted are complete - you would have to read the thread from the beginning and try find the full text of the study they are referring to - I'll try to do this myself when I get time.

BF by skin calipers and also some fancy machine that sends electrical signals through multiple points on the body - not just the legs like some I have seen before. Both give more or less the same reading, the machine slightly higher.

She isn't entirely new to training - but shes been more consistent and trained harder and more frequently as of late (few months), instead of casual, with some encouraging results.

I can appreciate that the best thing to do is try for one or the other, so you don't make a rod for your own back, but 'impossible' just seems so absolute. 'Highly improbable and not advised' might be a better way to put it.

You got your bases covered then as well

Its just a logical impossibility to do both at the same time, yknow. If your body has more calories and the stimulus is there itll build muscle, if your body has less calories itll use fat instead and the stores will eventually empty so to speak. In a nutshell thats how it works, and i think you can see that both cant really happen at once, lol.

Id stay away from the machine if i were you though, lol. Callipers are good enough. Ive never even heard of anything like that :-S

It could be a number of things yknow, an increase in muscle mass can make it look like the bodyfat has gone down more than it has simply because the muscles are bigger. Theres a tonne of factors. I never bother weighing or measuring any more, if i like the way i look i win, lol.

 

[thewicked]

Which do you guys think is better:
A) Lose fat, then gain muscle
B) Gain muscle, then try to lose fat
C) Try to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time

it's hard to do both.. especially if you eat clean..

because to gain "weight" no matter wether it be muscle or fat you have to eat more calories than your body burns up in a day. typically 500cals over your daily intake requirements... you're going to gain some fat in the process.

if you want to just gain weight and worry about cutting later.. just stuff your face with quality food and supplements and you'll be solid. IF you want a clean bulk which honeslty could take years to gain 10-15lbs of solid muscle...eat as best you can while taking in the amount of protien for the weight you WANT to be at versus waht you are at and it'll slowly come..

a solid workout program and good life outside the gym won't hurt you any either...

 

[Protheus]

Thanks for the replys guys

The machine I mention is a new technology (what they said) developed by a medical technology company whose premises are next to the gym I have joined. They have some sort of 'arrangement' with each other.

Personally I have no problem with my BF - its naturally quite low. Even now, in my untrained state (I've had 2 sessions back at the gym after 12 years off), I am pretty cut in that I still have deep striations in my chest and shoulders, all muscle groups including the intercostals and abs are well defined - the only thing lacking is the mass but I intend to put that back on (I've lost all the mass from my training years - returning from around 12st to under 10st).

Its funny, but it doesn't seem to matter for me how much I eat - my body simply refuses to put weight on. I tried to put some weight on by consuming high-calorie shakes, because I look soooo thin, but it wouldn't bloody work !

In fact I make my partner 'sick', as she puts it, that I ate like a pig over xmas and the scales didn't budge, but for her you can guess what happened on the dial.

This is just one of the reasons I considered returning to the weight room. What really got me was the sandwich lady where I work asking me if I was ill cos I look so skinny.

I am an ex-HITer by the way. But this time around I am trying to take a more balanced view and balance the HIT sessions with more regular, non-failure training. The HIT will be applied in a periodised/cyclic fashion.

 

[Gazhole]

HIT is a solid protocol. Mike Mentzer is one of my favourite authors on this subject (training), great guy.

 

[orsum]

I agree with everybody saying to gain lbm and fat loss is not possible at the same time.

BIG BUT

Now this is my story, since Christmas my body weight stayed the same but I had a 15 to 30% increase in my 5 rep max, this increase was with all the compound lifts. Pants fit better, I look thinner and my muscles are a little bigger.

How did my body do this and I am not genetically gifted nor do I take anything else to help.

I feed my body for 24 hours after my training cal positive, do my cardio then I cut back to cal neg for the next 24 hour, is that the holy grail of fat loss I donâ??????t know but that is what I do.

Will I try to cut and build the same time again, yes if I feel like it.

Gazhole said, I never bother weighing or measuring any more, if i like the way i look i win, lol.

X2

I will shortly be starting a cut only cycle which will consist of 3x HIIT cardio, cal neg and 3x heavy compound lifts per week, if I feel right then I will also add 3x Light cardio after the my weight lifting sessions.

Having said all that which is the quickest/best I donâ??????t know and if anybody finds out please PM me.

orsum

 

[Gazhole]

I will shortly be starting a cut only cycle which will consist of 3x HIIT cardio, cal neg and 3x heavy compound lifts per week, if I feel right then I will also add 3x Light cardio after the my weight lifting sessions.

Having said all that which is the quickest/best I donâ??????t know and if anybody finds out please PM me.

orsum

Do you do that much training when you're not on a cut?

 

[Built]

Protheus, I guarantee you I could put weight on you.

With regard to the strength gains while cutting - I've had this happen too, and not as a newbie. But I don't for a minute think I put on muscle. Muscle size is only one component of strength. When I cut I drop training volume and lift in lower rep ranges. This allows me to put more iron on the bar. Simple.

On the recomposition front - it is possible, but extremely slow in all but newbies.

Consider something here: we don't usually think of muscle as a storage form of energy but really, it is - it's just one we don’t want to spend!

With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek I went looking some time ago to see how much energy was "stored" in muscle. For reference, a pound of sirloin has about 600-700 calories stored in it - most of them from protein - so we'll use this for now. So, say 600 calories stored, but it "costs" a lot more than this for your body to create: I've read estimates of how much energy it takes to GAIN a pound of muscle being in the range of about 2000 calories. You can see why the body doesn't like to store energy in the form of protein - it costs too damned much in resources!

Contrast this with the 3500 calories in a pound of bodyfat, which the body "spends" very little to store or retrieve. Clearly more bang for buck: less net cost of storage, more calories per unit weight… really, it's perfect.

Now - you start losing weight and you don't have quite enough energy to run your entire body.

Think of this like a business: Your intake over a week drops by 3600 calories. The body can either drop one pound of fat, or 6 lbs of heavy, fuel-burning muscle. Which one would YOU rather ditch if you wanted the body to survive the famine?

So you train hard and heavy, helps the body maintain lean mass, forcing the body to reconsider the normal order of operations. Congratulations, and welcome to the world of successful cutting!

Now - how exactly are you going to convince the body to GAIN muscle when the body is operating in a deficit?

Pretty damned tricky without hormonal intervention. For newbies, they will typically gain a few ounces of muscle while dropping several pounds of bodyfat. This is NOT "bulking" - it's adaptation. And sadly, this effect doesn't persist very long.

 

[Protheus]

Built - thanks for taking the time to make such an informed reply.

Now I've started training again I am paying more attention to my diet and making sure I get all I need to build lean mass. I really miss my old body. I was never massive, I know I don't have the genetics to be, but the mass I did have had great shape and definition.

I did my third session back last night and my ass is sooooreeee today from the deadlifts. Cmon you bony butt ! - GROW!

 

[Built]

LOL - don't forget deep, below-parallel heavy squats for the booty, babe!

Track your calories. If you don't gain, increase by 500 a day. If you still don't gain, increase by another 500. If you have a hard time getting the calories in, try olive-oil shots in a few of your shakes. Easy calories from healthy monounsaturated fat.

 

[danny81]

I think charle Poliquin said to go with A.

 

[lojasmo]

It's possible to gain density and lose fat at the same time.

It's possible to gain strength and lose fat at the same time.

It's near impossible to gain much mass and lose fat at the same time.

Bottom line, the healthiest way is to lift and do some aerobic work (better yet, HIIT) at the same time, along with diet modification (eating clean)

And drink lots of water...that's good too.