• Hello, this board in now turned off and no new posting.
    Please REGISTER at Anabolic Steroid Forums, and become a member of our NEW community!
  • Check Out IronMag Labs® KSM-66 Max - Recovery and Anabolic Growth Complex

Why Are You Training Like A Bodybuilder?

Muscle Gelz Transdermals
IronMag Labs Prohormones
In all honesty, the purpose of this post was to be convinced against the types of routines that I'm advocating. My original post was, overall, a question, it wasn't a statement. I wanted to know why every novice and intermediate isn't training like a "powerlifter". It's one thing if it's ignorance, but it's another if one legitimately has a defense for not training to predominately increase your 1RMs while they are in the novice/intermediate state.

What's the deal with all of our training stickies? What's the point of designing your own routine? These guys (Wendler, Simmons, Tate, Rippetoe etc) put in dozens of years of work and they spit out 5/3/1, Starting Strength, and Westside. They feel that those are the programs that are best organized to get guys the bigger and stronger.

Literally yesterday, somebody asked Wendler that if he can start out all over, knowing what he knows now, what program would he do. He answered "what do you think?" and left it at that.

There's no need to design one's own program unless one is interested in figuring out what works on their own. We're lucky though -- guys have been putting work in for years to figure it out. Some of these guys have 20 years of coaching experience, let alone the work they put in on their own.

None of these 'opinions' are actually mine. I'm not making statements based on my experiences -- I'm making statements based on theirs.

So back to the stickies...shouldn't they just read: Go do Starting Strength. I feel like that's the best advice you can give anyone that wants to bigger. For what reason are we spending our time tinkering around with people's routines when a 20 dollar book will straighten everything out immediately?
 
Who said anything about getting a newbie to do a 1RM test? A 1RM can be estimated from any rep range (within reason). It might not be correct, but it'll still work for a baseline.

I think drilling form is fine, but in my experience drilling form at lower reps is just as beneficial as drilling at higher reps because the amount form drift due to fatigue is reduced.

A 5 rep set is different than a maximal 5 rep set, is all i'm saying. And in a lot of instances lower reps might actually be preferable to keep fatigue low and attention to technique high.

If i had to choose, i would teach technique using 5x5 @ 10RM rather than 3x10 @ 12RM. For the reasons i explained above, and for the reason of making the client feel like they're doing something by putting some weight on the bar.
 
In all honesty, the purpose of this post was to be convinced against the types of routines that I'm advocating. My original post was, overall, a question, it wasn't a statement. I wanted to know why every novice and intermediate isn't training like a "powerlifter". It's one thing if it's ignorance, but it's another if one legitimately has a defense for not training to predominately increase your 1RMs while they are in the novice/intermediate state.

What's the deal with all of our training stickies? What's the point of designing your own routine? These guys (Wendler, Simmons, Tate, Rippetoe etc) put in dozens of years of work and they spit out 5/3/1, Starting Strength, and Westside. They feel that those are the programs that are best organized to get guys the bigger and stronger.

Literally yesterday, somebody asked Wendler that if he can start out all over, knowing what he knows now, what program would he do. He answered "what do you think?" and left it at that.

There's no need to design one's own program unless one is interested in figuring out what works on their own. We're lucky though -- guys have been putting work in for years to figure it out. Some of these guys have 20 years of coaching experience, let alone the work they put in on their own.

None of these 'opinions' are actually mine. I'm not making statements based on my experiences -- I'm making statements based on theirs.

So back to the stickies...shouldn't they just read: Go do Starting Strength. I feel like that's the best advice you can give anyone that wants to bigger. For what reason are we spending our time tinkering around with people's routines when a 20 dollar book will straighten everything out immediately?

We're bored and they're cheap :roflmao:
 
I think drilling form is fine, but in my experience drilling form at lower reps is just as beneficial as drilling at higher reps because the amount form drift due to fatigue is reduced.

A 5 rep set is different than a maximal 5 rep set, is all i'm saying. And in a lot of instances lower reps might actually be preferable to keep fatigue low and attention to technique high.

I think the fatigue experienced at the latter reps is a good thing. The fatigue experienced won't be that intense and anyone who wants to lift heavy must learn to practice form even when fatigued. Although this fatigue won't be as intense as heavier lifting, it's a good practice.

If i had to choose, i would teach technique using 5x5 @ 10RM rather than 3x10 @ 12RM. For the reasons i explained above, and for the reason of making the client feel like they're doing something by putting some weight on the bar.

This is just where you and I disagree.
 
Teaching someone proper form and them mastering it, is two different things.
I completely agree. However, learning a serviceable level of technique is achievable when the new lifter is exposed to the proper resources.

I think teaching a beginner proper form(from a fucking video to boot), then sending them off on their own to try and gauge their 1RM at the gym is crazy.
The preferred way of learning form is certainly through hands-on coaching from someone whose understanding of technique is reasonably strong. Unfortunately, not everyone has access to a great coach and technique is poor across the board among lifters. Those with good technique are the exceptions. Therefore, it's probably preferential one learns form from a Rippetoe book and video than from the mimicry of other gym goers or from a training partner that is unlikely to have a proper grasp on technique themselves.

In regards to a 1RM: I do understand were your reservations about testing a 1RM come from. However, a novice is far removed from their absolute strength. Their physiology can handle squatting 165 pounds. Even for a more experienced lifter embarking on a new modality of training, the negative physiological repercussions of testing a 1RM once every four months (as in 5/3/1) or establishing a baseline is not comparable to testing a 1RM with frequency (every week or every month).

I don't care what these coaches say, because they won't be training anyone here.
Who you listen to is certainly you're own prerogative. However, I'm not following the reason behind ignoring their advice. Their information is made available so that lifters who do not have access to them can benefit from their experience.

Just an aside, if one wants direct access to Rippetoe or Wendler specifically, Rippetoe frequently posts on his forum and Wendler responds to Q&A questions at EliteFTS with very reasonable promptness.

Tons of newbies that come here won't even have a personal trainer. They'll have a video, a sticky, and maybe a website/book.
We can only do the best that we can with the limitations that exist. Essentially all we can do is field questions -- that is constant regardless of the programming.
What about these "beginners" that these coaches train? Are they really beginners to exercise or just to weight training. They're more than likely athletes who are trying to improve their performance. That is not the same as grabbing a couch potato and training them. No doubt we've seen some couch potato's visit this board looking for advise.
Starting Strength is most directly designed for coaching teenagers. Absolute beginners.

Just an aside: by Rippetoe's admittance, Starting Strength isn't anything out of the ordinary. It's not really his 'masterpiece' or anything like that. They are not even entirely his own ideas. It all stems from Bulgarian/Eastern Bloc/Russian training. Same thing goes with Westside (a more advanced protocol not intended for novices) and any program that involves periodization. Starting Strength is the collective work of all those that came before Rippetoe and is ultimately filtered down into core principles that are consistent with a multitude of complete programs. It's simply linear periodization -- there are no secrets or mysteries beyond why it is effective. Basically any logical linear periodization program will yield the same results and basically any linear periodization program will look extremely similar to Starting Strength.
Regardless, most people here are simply not going to have the resources that these coaches provide and base their results off.
I urge you to actually read the books. I think you may be over-complicating what the program entails. It's the same linear periodization that is in our stickies. The problem isn't that we don't have the information, the problem is that it's not being applied.
In Starting Strength, one basically squats, deadlifts, cleans, and benches in the five rep range and then increases weight until they cannot increase weight anymore. Once they cannot increase weight (properly recover) they have 'graduated' from the program.

After that period, I feel that 5/3/1 is fantastic. It's the same idea: squat, bench, deadlift, press and (if one chooses) clean. The book just sets up programming (especially periodization) in an organized manner that can be easily modified.

I also think guesstimation of when to move up in weight is fine for a beginner, since the goal of their first routine shouldn't be maximum strength gains.
The novice period, however long it may last, permits the greatest gains relative to any other point in a lifter's career. The most efficient and effective programming allows the novice to take advantage of that period to the greatest extent.


Simplicity, higher repetition, and less weight. Leading to improved form and confidence.
However, without specific direction for manipulating the load, the lifter is sacrificing the gains that can be made in that novice period.

Someone that doesn't have sufficient experience in the exercises shouldn't be trusted to have good form at heavier weight.

Sure, but heavy weight is relative to their absolute strength. No one is going to rupture a pec benching 135x5.

A caveat: injury can occur at any essentially any load if the lifter isn't probably warmed up. However, an improper warmup protocol lends to an incomplete program.


Who is going to assist the people that come here asking for advice on any exercise? You gonna fly down there to help them train? No, they're gonna be by themselves. Armed only with a video, sticky, and maybe a book or website. Have you ever taught someone proper squat form who's never squated and isn't much of an athlete? It takes a little bit for them to get it, and that's just using bodyweight. So from there they're now ready to go into the gym alone and test their 1RM? I think advising a handful of compound exercises, using moderate weight, and focusing on their form is better advice for the average beginner who visits this board. If the person comes back after a few months looking for more advice, then I would direct them to some more advanced routines.

PushAndPull, I really do appreciate you taking the time to rebut, it's exactly what I was looking for. However, if you read the books, I that you'll recognize that Starting Strength and 5/3/1 have very similar principles towards what you believe is ideal for training a novice/intermediate. The major difference being that Starting Strength takes the effort to capitalize on the novice gains. Frankly, most of us probably cannot recover fast enough to do that program -- it is truly designed for the beginner. Whether the programming lasts for three months or a year or is matter of nutrition, lifestyle, and genetics -- the better the lifter can recover, the longer then can sustain increasing the load before needing to employ more advanced techniques.

5/3/1 is excellent for the lifter that has left that initial period, even though it can still be used by absolute beginners.


The point isn't that I'm trying to pimp these books and that they contain the secret to training. The same information is held in our stickies.

The issue is that it I believe it is overwhelming for a novice to try to assimilate all the information needed to assemble a proper warmup, determine intensities/rep ranges/movements, and then figure out progression. Explaining all of this puts a huge burden on us as well -- it's a lot of information to go over with any user.

We actually do the same thing with our Nutrition section. Aside from carb cycling, which has less "moving parts" than training, we frequently recommend that lifters read The Ultimate Diet 2.0 or The Rapid Fatloss Handbook. I recognize that those diets are for more 'advanced' dieters, but I think the message still applies -- it's a matter of using the best resources to help lifters succeed

The message of the books fit very well into the training beliefs of our 'usual posters' with the addition of stressing periodization which I typically do not see stressed here. To reiterate, the benefits of those two training books is in their organization. From warmup to movement selection/reps/ intensity to periodization, the book organizes all the information so that anyone can follow it. The intention isn't to be lazy -- I just wholeheartedly feel that novices/intermediates would be better served having the information that we normally give them available, with the addition of periodization, in a medium that they can be easily referenced.


Additionally, here's a podcast were Jim Wendler talks about 5/3/1 with the Fitcast people.
 
Last edited:
Marat -- this is a great discussion.

I've been doing some powerlifting the last few months, and am wanting to get more into it. For my next program coming up in about a month I want to do a powerlifting program, or at least one built around getting the major lifts up. I've been looking at Westside and Starr's 5x5, never done either, nor have I done 5/3/1. I'm liking the structure of 5x5, very simple.

What would you suggest?
 
Marat, i'm lacking the attention span to continue this discussion. :roflmao: I did read your last post and agree periodization could in general be stressed more. I often post that link and others for newbies to read, but they rarely do. Nice discussion, but i'm still not buying the book(joke). Anyways I still luv ya :roflmao:
 
I'd narrow it down to 5/3/1 and Westside. Westside is the most comprehensive and 5/3/1 has more flexibility than does 5x5. Also, you can get the most feedback from Westside and 5/3/1.

From there, I recommend reading both books and seeing what fits into your lifestyle and limitations. Westside is very comprehensive -- from starting out to implementing boards, bands and chains, the book has everything. 5/3/1 is significantly simplified but still has a strong Bulgarian influence. 5/3/1 can also be used while cutting or bulking whereas cutting with Westside isn't logical.

In summary, 5/3/1 sacrifices a bit of performance for convenience. It's still very effective, just not as comprehensive towards powerlifting as Westside.

Also, as with any powerlifting question (or really any question), feel free to ask the people at EliteFTS. The 'Ask the Expert' button is at the bottom -- they usually have a pretty fast turnover. Except with Dave (he's a bit hit or miss), you'll get an answer within a few days. If not, they urge you to repost it again. Ask them about which program they recommend, I'd be happy to hear what they say.
 
I'd narrow it down to 5/3/1 and Westside. Westside is the most comprehensive and 5/3/1 has more flexibility than does 5x5. Also, you can get the most feedback from Westside and 5/3/1.

From there, I recommend reading both books and seeing what fits into your lifestyle and limitations. Westside is very comprehensive -- from starting out to implementing boards, bands and chains, the book has everything. 5/3/1 is significantly simplified but still has a strong Bulgarian influence. 5/3/1 can also be used while cutting or bulking whereas cutting with Westside isn't logical.

In summary, 5/3/1 sacrifices a bit of performance for convenience. It's still very effective, just not as comprehensive towards powerlifting as Westside.

Also, as with any powerlifting question (or really any question), feel free to ask the people at EliteFTS. The 'Ask the Expert' button is at the bottom -- they usually have a pretty fast turnover. Except with Dave (he's a bit hit or miss), you'll get an answer within a few days. If not, they urge you to repost it again. Ask them about which program they recommend, I'd be happy to hear what they say.

Awesome! Thanks! :thumb:
 
EliteFTS is my go-to site for strength training info. Its quality. Their products are great, too.

Definitely reccomend a stint of Westside, Phineas. I've done two WS training cycles before and it's one of the few programs i've gotten enough results from (and enjoyed enough) to repeat. I very rarely do that.
 
EliteFTS is my go-to site for strength training info. Its quality. Their products are great, too.

Definitely reccomend a stint of Westside, Phineas. I've done two WS training cycles before and it's one of the few programs i've gotten enough results from (and enjoyed enough) to repeat. I very rarely do that.

Yeah, I really like the program layout. I like the idea of the dynamic effort sessions. I figure I'm powerlifting every session now, so I might as well apply myself in a more organized manner. I'm currently powerlifting mixed with bodybuilding...sort of. Mostly powerlifting, though.

I've scaled down my volume program considerably for the third and final cycle -- as I'm a month from my half-marathon. It's been odd training for a running race while getting my lifts up and putting on mass. I love the combination. It's been painful, but good. The race is October 10. I'm going to do a 2-week deload beginning a week before the race, then I'll give myself one more week after the race. After that, I'll start straight-up powerlifting.

I haven't trained like a real bodybuilder in almost a year now, anyway. I think I've always been leaning towards a powerlifting mentality, with my focus on heavy compounds and organization of mechanics. I finally got the ball rolling with your conjugate program when I did it a few months back. Then, my volume program had me powerlifting every session.

I'm just obsessed with getting my major lifts up. Last night I had a technical error that screwed up my squats, preventing me from attempting a 5-rep PR and I was pissed off the whole night (I have tight achilies, and use the plates under the hell trick to compensate...usually works wonders but last night I squatted at a different gym and didn't have the usual plates I use so I couldn't get my stance to work. I'm going to measure the height of the plates I normally use and get a board to use instead of plates, though. 2 weeks ago I was robbed a 245 for 5 (15-20 degrees below paralle) PR because the plates under my heels moved about an inch and my form got completely thrown off. A board will be much more stable).
 
Marat, to me the advantage of SS over 5/3/1 doesn't really have to do with volume but with frequency. I think a lot of newbies could benefit from doing the main lifts 2-3 times per week. I really think increased frequency teaches a lifter a lot about technique. That's just my opinion based on personal opinion though.

PushandPull, I have to respectfully disagree with your point that increased volume and decreased intensity is better for mastering exercise technique. I think with increased volume comes a certain amount of fatigue. Even experienced lifters struggle with form in a fatigued state.

Another thing is, to me, the only way to develop a technical mastery of a lift at higher intensities is to do the lift at higher intensities! You can do 10 rep sets of back squats at 60% of your 1RM and you'll be proficient at that intensity, but if you start loading the weight on the bar your form is going to go to hell.

To Phineas:

A lot of people love Westside. I experienced some gains on it too, but I think you have to be honest with what you want to get out of it and adjust it from there. For months I tried to squat Westside-style and, while my low-bar back squat numbers went up, I didn't think my athletic performance was improving all that much. I switched to a more specific program and did high-bar back squats and I've improved greatly. I've always said that Westside is a great program for an equipped powerlifter. For those who are lifting raw or have other aspirations, I think other programs may be better.
 
I also hate low bar squats. I squat high bar position every time.

Also, good luck with your half marathon, Phineas! I never go for PRs in a different gym, haha. Messes you up. The plates can be different weights too.
 
Marat, to me the advantage of SS over 5/3/1 doesn't really have to do with volume but with frequency. I think a lot of newbies could benefit from doing the main lifts 2-3 times per week. I really think increased frequency teaches a lifter a lot about technique. That's just my opinion based on personal opinion though.

Yea, glad you included that. Additionally, I've noticed a lot of recommendation for keeping sets as doubles or triples while teaching form. Doing so minimizes the technique breakdown that tends to occur at the higher numbered reps.
 
Lots of good info on this thread. I think it should be stickied for that reason alone, not to mention the philosophical "Why do you train like a bodybuilder" question :P
 
EliteFTS is my go-to site for strength training info. Its quality. Their products are great, too.

Definitely reccomend a stint of Westside, Phineas. I've done two WS training cycles before and it's one of the few programs i've gotten enough results from (and enjoyed enough) to repeat. I very rarely do that.

ditto to the above a little Westside never hurt anybody!...IMO there are lots of great training systems out there and just about all of them work when you train at high levels of intensity. shit I think it was like 2009 when I hit 560 raw on the bench with some old ass bench press routine from Ted Arcedi..lol
 
I've skimmed through the thread, not as well as I should have because it is boring.

I lift 5x5 as a low end.. "I'm here and I at least should lift 5x5" that's my thought process. I'll throw in a few 1-3 rep max lifts at the end and start with 10s or 15's, depending.

It depends on the day and the injuries. It turns out that in the way, the way I work around injuries makes me more effective at getting better. I change it up and think, fuck you lower back! Fuck you shoulder! Fuck you knee! :hmmm:

I guess being older is good for me. I think it's very bad for a novice though.

The irony for me is that I rediscovered lifting as a way to overcome lower back problems. I've turned that problem into dust. In a way what I have overcome has shaped my entire lifting philosophy. It's something that would be very VERY difficult to put into a package for a novice.
 
Last edited:
ditto to the above a little Westside never hurt anybody!...IMO there are lots of great training systems out there and just about all of them work when you train at high levels of intensity. shit I think it was like 2009 when I hit 560 raw on the bench with some old ass bench press routine from Ted Arcedi..lol

:clapping: thats a huge bench, nice work. Ted is old school, haha. Makes you wonder how wrestlers these days would fare in powerlifting...
 
ditto to the above a little Westside never hurt anybody!...IMO there are lots of great training systems out there and just about all of them work when you train at high levels of intensity. shit I think it was like 2009 when I hit 560 raw on the bench with some old ass bench press routine from Ted Arcedi..lol

There's nothing magical about a training system. Sure, for elite athletes, different programming may result in better progress, but to get to that level relies on one thing: hard work.

But people don't want to hear that - they want some magic program that will make them big or strong quickly and won't be too taxing. They don't realize that big results only accumulate through hard work over time.

BTW amazing lift.
 
Muscle Gelz Transdermals
IronMag Labs Prohormones
There's nothing magical about a training system. Sure, for elite athletes, different programming may result in better progress, but to get to that level relies on one thing: hard work.

But people don't want to hear that - they want some magic program that will make them big or strong quickly and won't be too taxing. They don't realize that big results only accumulate through hard work over time.

BTW amazing lift.

+1 for that
 
There's nothing magical about a training system. Sure, for elite athletes, different programming may result in better progress, but to get to that level relies on one thing: hard work.

But people don't want to hear that - they want some magic program that will make them big or strong quickly and won't be too taxing. They don't realize that big results only accumulate through hard work over time.

BTW amazing lift.

Very true. Being in my disclosed location I am right now I have had many come up to me and ask me what I do. I just say I eat right and try to focus on form. After reading this thread, I think I will take my 4 years of lifting and buy me yet another book. At 27 I THOUGHT I knew a good bit (most of which from this site) but I believe I have mislead myself. Great thread! Thanks to all.
 
The thing that makes a program great is it' s ability to lay out a framework for you to be able to work as hard as you can without overdoing things. Without this framework a lot of people, especially inexperienced lifters, either slack off and don't work hard enough, or overtrain.

Even experienced lifters need a structured program in order to systematically improve their performance. If you go into the gym every workout without a plan, you will get absolutely nowhere.

Hard work is the big line underneath any program though, no matter the credentials of it's author or the amount of effort put into the design. The best program in the world will only pay dividends in return for sweat, tears, and pain.
 
I very much agree with the above post. Good programming is completely useless amidst a poor work ethic.

One can get pretty damn strong with a good work ethic and an average program. It's just going to take more time and more tinkering.

Fortunately for us, guys like Simmons, Rippetoe, and Wendler already put in the years to figure out what works. It would be foolish to not learn from their mistakes.
 
"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Marat again."

I've seen this error far too much because of this thread.
 
I train like a bodybuilder and a powerlifter all in one. all rep ranges, all movements, cables,machines, and free weights

If you use lots of cables and machines and use all rep ranges you are not training like a powerlifter. Like Marat said, a powerlifter may use minor cable work as assistance for the main lifts, but no machine work really.
 
Some of the bodybuilders do powerlifting routines in there offseason though. I think more bodybuilders should do this to bulk up, but obviously when they drop carbs there not going to do a powerlifting routine.
 
If you use lots of cables and machines and use all rep ranges you are not training like a powerlifter. Like Marat said, a powerlifter may use minor cable work as assistance for the main lifts, but no machine work really.

cshea2, you are essentially accurately paraphrasing what I've said and I do appreciate you helping me defend my stance. However, it is possible that you are missing the overall message.

I'm not interested in separating "bodybuilders" from "powerlifters". I am interested in promoting an understanding of the impact the programming typically associated with the respective 'training paths' have on the body.

Brief examples to help elucidate my point:
Bicep curls probably won't take 12 inch arms to 16 inch arms as readily as deadlifts and rows will. Similarly, the leg press won't put on overall size as readily as squats will. With that said, if one wants 20 inch arms and exceptional quads, some direct work will very likely be needed.


In reference to ygbodybuilder10, I very well think that he can train like a bodybuilder and powerlifter simultaneously. The point of my initial post was to have lifters hopefully consider why they train the way they do. I think that for the 'average' lifter (i.e the guy who isn't interesting in being competitive relative to the field on the stage or platform) would be best served to incorporate aspects from both disciplines. Perhaps some lifters will be better served adopting principles more associated with powerlifting and some lifters will be better served adopting principles associated with bodybuilding.

I just think it's foolish to ignore a third of weightlifting (bodybuilding, powerlifting, olympic lifting) because Men's Health draws out an "8 week routine to really blast your biceps" when guys would probably be better served deadlifting.

Not be be riding anybody, but what I've seen from ygbodybuilder10's occasionally appearances on the forum, he's probably been doing an excellent job harmoniously incorporating both disciplines into his regimen.
 
EliteFTS is my go-to site for strength training info. Its quality. Their products are great, too.

Definitely reccomend a stint of Westside, Phineas. I've done two WS training cycles before and it's one of the few programs i've gotten enough results from (and enjoyed enough) to repeat. I very rarely do that.


+1

Phineas, with the goal being to increase your 1RM, Westside is hard to beat. Especially if you can incorporate some of the band/chain exercises, you'll see additional gains like no other. This program performed to it's fullest, will completely break you off!
 
Back
Top