Your Sexuality?

[Pepper]

But what people have to understand is that what they believe the bible says (I believe it is mistranslated and misintepreted www.truluck.com) is their own personal belief. I don't believe what the bible says and I shouldn't have to listen to people tell me "Well, the bible says you're committing a sin." I really don't care! Because it's not my idea or belief. To tell someone that what they do is wrong based on their beliefs is rude and offensive. As rude and offensive as making any other personal comment based on ones own beliefs or taste. That's what it comes down to, really. Especially given that, as I already said, homosexuality is not a crime in the US.

I am not really sure what your point it. All I said was that the Bible says it is a sin. If you don't believe the Bible, then what the big deal?

I get incredibly frustrated with those (not saying you feel this way) who claim the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. I have no problem with you living your life the way you want, but don't twist the Bible to justify it. Let me say it plainly: homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God. If you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then that statement will be irrelevant to you. I say it is a sin, again, recognizing that I have plenty of sin in my life and am not here to judge. However, I do believe that God will judge us all and I just can't see how a practicing homosexual will be counted a believer. However, that will not be my call. The Bible is pretty clear on this issue.

 

[MaxMirkin]

www.truluck.com

..... steps to recovery from bible abuse? a response to the abusive use of the bible against gays and lesbians and all others oppressed and alienated by religion?

are you serious man? we are all here right now because of god (at least im guessing thats what most of us believe) and you think the bible, his word, the words we are to live by, has abused you?

Please don't turn this into a religious debate. One sensitive topic at a time.

 

[MaxMirkin]

Too late....

 

[Minotaur]

Take off your blinders and prejudice and READ, for crying out loud... he means the bible being abused by people to persecute others.

And no, I don't believe the bible is words to live by, not all of it anyway.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

hmm, where to begin...
Ok

I have no problem with the majority of gays, blacks, mexicans, etc.

But there are certain people of each category that i dont like BASED PURILY on the way they seem when i first encounter them

Like if i see gay teenager who is loud and annoying and being a "bitch"
I automatically "hate" them.

If i see a gang of mexicans hanging out acting cool, i "hate" them

If i see a bunch of white people come into my store and act like redneck white trash, i "hate" them

Does this make me racist? prejudiced?
I dont know, but i am VERY BAD about making judgements on people as soon as i see/meet them

THough i have nothing against all of them

But i dont like goth's and i dont like mormons sorry i am prejudiced in that belief

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Take off your blinders and prejudice and READ, for crying out loud... he means the bible being abused by people to persecute others.

And no, I don't believe the bible is words to live by, not all of it anyway.

I took this from south park:

"The problem with people is that they believe every thing in the bible is to be taken literally. But thats not right. really, the bible is just a collection of stories, thoughts, and some facts, that are there for people to use to help them live their life. Stories to help you live by."

well something like that

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

and another thing

Im pretty sure im 100% straight

But when if i had a gay friend and we were at lunch together, i wouldnt be offended if he told me of a sexual encounter, nor would it make my stomach upset, not at all

When i think of 2 men having sex it doenst bother me at all

And i dont know how/why it would make other people actually upset to their stomach??

thats weird, its just thoughts....
Nothing i can think of makes me feel bad physically
thats just odd to me

 

[Minotaur]

I took this from south park:

"The problem with people is that they believe every thing in the bible is to be taken literally. But thats not right. really, the bible is just a collection of stories, thoughts, and some facts, that are there for people to use to help them live their life. Stories to help you live by."

well something like that

 

[bulletproof1]

and another thing

Im pretty sure im 100% straight

But when if i had a gay friend and we were at lunch together, i wouldnt be offended if he told me of a sexual encounter, nor would it make my stomach upset, not at all

When i think of 2 men having sex it doenst bother me at all

And i dont know how/why it would make other people actually upset to their stomach??

thats weird, its just thoughts....
Nothing i can think of makes me feel bad physically
thats just odd to me

i did exaggerate on the upset stomach thing a little bit. i dont have a physical reaction or anything. i just meant the thought of it is not appealing to me and i think it is disgusting.

 

[Minotaur]

and another thing

Im pretty sure im 100% straight

But when if i had a gay friend and we were at lunch together, i wouldnt be offended if he told me of a sexual encounter, nor would it make my stomach upset, not at all

When i think of 2 men having sex it doenst bother me at all

And i dont know how/why it would make other people actually upset to their stomach??

thats weird, its just thoughts....
Nothing i can think of makes me feel bad physically
thats just odd to me

Because people have fixations about what other people do. And people tend to like to compartmentalize and label and have a nice order on things. When things fall out of what they believe is order, they force order on it... they don't understand what it is to be homosexual, and they learned that their bible (which is unchanging truth to them) condemns it (or so they think... it really doesn't but they won't accept that ), so there you have it. No thinking outside the box.

You are secure enough in yourself that what someone else does, does not affect you (short of violence against you).

 

[Minotaur]

hmm, where to begin...
Ok

I have no problem with the majority of gays, blacks, mexicans, etc.

But there are certain people of each category that i dont like BASED PURILY on the way they seem when i first encounter them

Like if i see gay teenager who is loud and annoying and being a "bitch"
I automatically "hate" them.

If i see a gang of mexicans hanging out acting cool, i "hate" them

If i see a bunch of white people come into my store and act like redneck white trash, i "hate" them

Does this make me racist? prejudiced?
I dont know, but i am VERY BAD about making judgements on people as soon as i see/meet them

THough i have nothing against all of them

But i dont like goth's and i dont like mormons sorry i am prejudiced in that belief

Do you hate who they are, or do you hate what they do and the way they act? Big difference.

I hate what Muslims do but I don't hate them as people; I hate the way some gay guys act (bitchy and queenie) but I don't hate them for themselves; I hate what Mormons and Jehovah's Nitwits do, but they're people too, and I don't hate them as people; I hate the way Goths look and I roll my eyes, except that a couple of them helped me get my car started on a cold night years ago. And then I thought they were pretty nice kids.

 

[bulletproof1]

like your sexuality, you are entitled to believe what you want. i on the other hand would hate to stand in front of god on judgement day and tell him i didnt feel like living by his word because it didnt feel right. im pretty sure that will get you a failing grade.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

You know somehting that i hate? Morons that are raised to believe something, and NEVER question it, even as adults they still accept it as 100% truth....

I am talking about all of the morons who say stuff like "fags should be killed"
or "i hate gays"

90% of the guys who say this have NOT had any kind of relationship (friendly of course)
with a gay person and most have not even talked with one

They only have these opinions b/c their parents did, this is ignorence in its purest form

Basing everything you believe in off of someone else's beliefs...

THis is the biggest problem
Show me any person who was raised and a healthy, accepting, loving household
and is still prejudiced.....

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Do you hate who they are, or do you hate what they do and the way they act? Big difference.

I hate what Muslims do but I don't hate them as people; I hate the way some gay guys act (bitchy and queenie) but I don't hate them for themselves; I hate what Mormons and Jehovah's Nitwits do, but they're people too, and I don't hate them as people; I hate the way Goths look and I roll my eyes, except that a couple of them helped me get my car started on a cold night years ago. And then I thought they were pretty nice kids.

oh muslims i left them out, i cant stand most of them either

 

[Minotaur]

like your sexuality, you are entitled to believe what you want. i on the other hand would hate to stand in front of god on judgement day and tell him i didnt feel like living by his word because it didnt feel right. im pretty sure that will get you a failing grade.

See this is the thing about peoples' narrowminded interpretation of God and religion that pees me off... like Jesus said to the Scribes and Pharisees, you know the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it.

Do you really think that God has so little to do in running the universe that he worries about whom I sleep with, especially when love is involved? C'mon, these were stories written as a guideline to life. Not literal.

When I've done my best to live a decent life, helping others when I can, forgiving their insults to me, God is really going to condemn me for sleeping with another man!? Give me a break.

Btw, do you eat shellfish? Cheeseburgers? Ham and cheese? Do you shave and/or get your hair cut/styled? Ever back talk your parents and live to tell about it? If you did any of those (and more), it's a sin in the same category as sleeping with another man.

When you were in puberty and had a wet dream, did you take your 'soiled' garment and go out to the town dump to bury it? No!? That's an abomination.

Yes, it's all in Leviticus.

 

[cjrmack]

You can debate this issue til the cows come home. All I can say is do not judge someone because of thier race, religion, or sexual orientation, do not try to claim you know what it is like to walk in thier shoes, and do not try to play God. I've known guys who will befriend a guy who commits adultery but then refuse to be have anything to do with a gay guy because they feel gays are immoral. How hypocritical is that? Not to mention how many guys love seeing two women perform lewd homosexual acts and think that is fine but if a guy is gay..? Anyway as I said my basis for friends is what kind of person someone is, not the skin they are wrapped in or thier sexual orientation.

 

[Pepper]

You are dead-on right about many people treating homosexuality differently that other sexual sins...or just other sins, period.

Minotaur, your interpetation of the Bible is totally different to mine. THere is no point debating on that point. You just twist it to say whatever you want it to. You've plainly stated that you don't believe the Bible anyway, so what do you care what it says?

 

[Pepper]

All I can say is do not judge someone because of thier race, religion, or sexual orientation

I think and hope I've made it pretty clear that I am not judging them. I am simply pointing out that God will judge them...and me.

 

[kbm8795]

This is exactly why my attitude about the marriage debate sometimes gets me in trouble - when I see "religious" people go on and on about morality, I think about all of the registered sex offenders, rapists, murderers, adulterers and spouse abusers who are ever prevented from accessing state and tax supported benefits or are categorically punished for breaking their vows. And the reasoning for that isn't procreation, either - in my state,a heterosexual couple who are first cousins can be married as long as they are over 50 and one of them can prove they are sterile. In another state, a man serving a prison term for child sexual abuse (gosh, a former priest) was allowed to marry an ex-nun, even though they cannot consummate the relationship.

When heterosexuality is involved, the state keeps it's nose pretty much out of the picture of personal choice. . .citing it as a basic human right. Then when a gay couple wants access to those benefits, they are told they are sinful by "choice" and the punishment for that is theft of property, denial of self and partner choice for funeral arrangements and state refusal to accept partner decisions on health or hospital visitation privileges. What this ends up amounting to, for them, is legalized theft of their lives and identities, based only on some religious interpretations of the meaning of scripture.

I read a story during the recent constitutional amendment debacle in Missouri that related the story of a gay partner who followed his dying partner's funeral wishes to the letter - only to have the legally recognized "family" go to court, exhume the body from the grave, and move it to an undisclosed location. You won't hear those churches talk about that kind of conduct or behavior, or the grief or hardship they endorse.

Surprisingly enough, when a large majority of Missourians passed that constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman only, they likely opened their own statutory regulation regarding heterosexual incestual relationships up for a constitutional challenge. That means a brother and a sister could probably challenge the state based on this new wording in the constitution. In the haste to prevent their own gay citizens access to any state benefits or responsibilities of family law, the good and "moral" citizens of Missouri may have just legalized incest. But I'm sure that biblical principle can be ignored as well. . .just as those registered sex offenders are not prohibited from marriage no matter how many commandments they've broken or violent crimes against their relationships they have committed. For some reason, the Bible only becomes the tool for legislative persecution when it involves people who aren't like ourselves - similar to that former biblical belief that the seperation of race was justified by God's intent. The Word didn't change, but the interpretation eventually did. . .but strangely enough, those who perpetrated that former interpretation did not expect that any of their own rights be abridged as social punishment for misinterpretation of the Bible.

In this nation, not all christians interpret scripture in an identical manner. Just as Pepper's church has decided this is a "sin," does it mean that an Episcopal interpretation is therefore wrong and those gays who believe in that faith be legally denied the same citizenship and human right to intimate association that those of Pepper's church enjoy?

 

[Pepper]

I will say right now that the Episcopal interpretation is wrong. Very wrong. Any they are losing congregation after congregation because if it.

 

[Minotaur]

You are dead-on right about many people treating homosexuality differently that other sexual sins...or just other sins, period.

Minotaur, your interpetation of the Bible is totally different to mine. THere is no point debating on that point. You just twist it to say whatever you want it to. You've plainly stated that you don't believe the Bible anyway, so what do you care what it says?

I don't twist it say whatever I want, I just throw out the nonsense that has no connection to the real world. Sleeping with another man, eating lobster or cheeseburgers or wearing a poly/wool blend suit has no relevance to the real world. However, how I interact with my fellow man and how I treat him does. There are truths in the Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita and Ramayana also, as there are in Buddha's writings. But I don't take everything literally out of them either. Why should the bible be any more correct than those other writings? After all they are the words of God also.

I care when people start quoting it out of context and shoving it in my face as if it's 'gospel truth' (pun intended) to justify them telling me I am immoral. I care when legislators start quoting and thumping it to try to make law based on it in a country where that is expressly forbidden by the Constitution. I care that people put the Judeo-Christian God and bible above the civil laws of the US. That's what I care about.

 

[kbm8795]

I will say right now that the Episcopal interpretation is wrong. Very wrong. Any they are losing congregation after congregation because if it.

I think that is the whole point here. . .and there are Episcopalians who would contend that your religious perspective is wrong - very wrong. And they could likely go through a history of any religious denomination and point out both hypocrisies and "wrong" interpretation on any number of issues, too. If that is the case, should you have a long list of constitutional or statutory restrictions placed on your life because of your religious beliefs?

I think the congregation after congregation loss argument points out another problem with religious beliefs. If righteousness and "truth" is supposed to be solely based in this country on successful religious marketing techniques, then that just adds to the reasons why I think many gays would question the absolute truth of those interpretations.

I don't mind that you think they are wrong, Pepper - that is your constitutional right. But if that belief demands that your church's interpretation be imposed on my religious beliefs and demand people suffer because of that teaching, then it should be construed as violating my rights as a citizen. This country has been down this road before, and we don't seem to learn our lessons very well. When interracial marriage was prohibited, practically every argument against the mixture of races was based on religious interpretation of biblical scripture. When was the last time your minister railed against the abominable mixture of races that God had intended to be placed on different continents in order to ensure purity?

 

[MaxMirkin]

The world would be so much simpler if religion would just go away.

 

[Mudge]

The idea behind homosexuality being "wrong" is that it is not how God intended us to live since it is not going to reproduce offspring, so people often interpret it as spitting in God's face, just as many likewise believe sodomy is wrong.

I think its genetic, and we all have freedom of choice on this earth to do what we think is right, or even wrong. I really have nothing against them and even work with several gay males and one lesbian (that I am aware of). My boss is a bit of a chaterbox (queeny) sometimes talking about things he shouldn't, but overall hes a great guy I think.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

everyone knows someone who talks about things that they really shouldn't. one guy continually talks about all the women he ( says ) that he banged. it is non stop. i told the guy to give it a rest as I really don't care and I actually don't believe a word that he says. he looks at me, gives me the 'look' and says " what are ya? some sort of fag?" he has a different if not strange definition of what it means to be male or straight male .

at least i got rid of the guy.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

i think i hate all people...

 

[John H.]

I am not really sure what your point it. All I said was that the Bible says it is a sin. If you don't believe the Bible, then what the big deal?

I get incredibly frustrated with those (not saying you feel this way) who claim the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. I have no problem with you living your life the way you want, but don't twist the Bible to justify it. Let me say it plainly: homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God. If you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then that statement will be irrelevant to you. I say it is a sin, again, recognizing that I have plenty of sin in my life and am not here to judge. However, I do believe that God will judge us all and I just can't see how a practicing homosexual will be counted a believer. However, that will not be my call. The Bible is pretty clear on this issue.

Hi Pepper,

The Bible. The Bible. Consider this: look at Iraq, Iran... the WHOLE region. Consider there is almost no employment to speak of, the heat is tremendous, the humidity and the sand blows around all the time. EVERYWHERE. In your eyes, ears, up your ... etc. Add religion to all this. I think people who live in this area have violated a basic law of Nature BY "living" in this area to begin with since I do not believe Human Beings were meant to live there in the first place. It is not a place where someone could truly enjoy "living" - and THAT is speaking ONLY of the climate - weather conditions, etc. THEN throw "religion" into the pot. Everyone there has "visions" and creates "beliefs" all the time. NO ONE in this entire region has ever gotten along - they have ALWAYS fought and killed each other over differing viewpoints and "religion". And probably always will. There HAS NEVER BEEN peace in this region. It has ALWAYS been a hot-bed. Anyone in their right mind would have nothing to do with this region. And all its associated PROBLEMS!!!

The Bible was NOT written until LONG AFTER the death of Christ - by some accounts more than 250 YEARS after his death. Given the short memory span of Human Beings and the accuracy of that "memory" (just ask someone what they did the DAY before and see how accurate their memory is) I doubt very much is very accurate. Especially when you consider that everyone in this region is out to control others and have power over others. They spend all their time doing only that - there's nothing they do that is productive or meaningful or truthful. All they want to do is fight each other over personal "beliefs" and "religion" and kill those that do not "agree"... Who the hell wants anything to do with all that unrest, hatred, etc. ....

The Bible you speak of is the WORD OF MAN NOT of God or Christ. It was written by MEN - Human Beings - over 40 each with their own opinions and beliefs and over a very long period of time. The "Bible" actually says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Homosexuality. It does not use that word even. That word was not "coined" until about 1889 A. D. The Old Testament is nothing more then the old Jewish law books. You say: "...homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God"... - GOD HIMSELF NEVER SAID ONE WORD EVER about this subject and neither did Jesus Christ who was on this earth for roughly 32 years we are told and He NEVER ONE TIME said ONE WORD about it HIMSELF. Surely He did not "forget"! He is supposed to have said a lot during His lifetime and NEVER ONE TIME even breathed ONE WORD about Homosexuality. NEVER. If this subject was so wrong HE WOULD HIMSELF HAVE SAID SO AND OFTEN - HE NEVER SAID ONE WORD!!!

Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality ARE VARIATIONS of Sexuality - just like ALL things in life and living, ALL things in Nature and the Natural World variation exists (trees, flowers, animals, plants, mountains, streams - you name it - there IS VARIATION EVERYWHERE in EVERYTHING and for good reason! Sexuality is NO exception!) of which Human Beings ARE a part whether they want to be or not, whether they agree or not, whether they understand or not, whether they "accept" that or not. EACH of these VARIATIONS in Sexuality DO EXIST and always have in Nature and the Natural World. THAT IS FACT POSITIVE!!! Read this book for example: BIOLOGICAL EXUBERANCE, by Bruce Bagemihl (St. Martin's Press) to get some understanding of the Natural World and Sexuality. Read more - there is a lot of good information that is accurate and honest IF you really care to LEARN honestly and accurately. Learning is a life-long thing. NO ONE knows it all and probably was never intended that they do. There is a LOT more to learning and living than just "The Bible"... IF you want to be TRULY HONEST, ACCURATE, etc.

Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

everyone knows someone who talks about things that they really shouldn't. one guy continually talks about all the women he ( says ) that he banged. it is non stop. i told the guy to give it a rest as I really don't care and I actually don't believe a word that he says. he looks at me, gives me the 'look' and says " what are ya? some sort of fag?" he has a different if not strange definition of what it means to be male or straight male .

at least i got rid of the guy.

Hi Marcus,

I have never thought much of people who "brag" about their "personal conquests" - whether they are Men or Women and whether they are Male or Female "conquests". To me, Sex is SACRED and VERY BEAUTIFUL no matter who you are with - as long as they are of age and ability of consent and give that consent freely AND you LOVE TRUTHFULLY that person. If you truly LOVE that person you do NOT go around bragging about your Sexual encounters with others unless you (meaning anyone here) are disrespectful of them and yourself as well.

If Sex - or Sexuality - can ever be considered "dirty" or "filthy" or "dishonorable", etc. it is because Human Beings make their "acts" so and NOT because Sex or Sexuality is so in and of itself. Sex and Sexuality are very beautiful and wonderful creations.

Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

This is exactly why my attitude about the marriage debate sometimes gets me in trouble - when I see "religious" people go on and on about morality, I think about all of the registered sex offenders, rapists, murderers, adulterers and spouse abusers who are ever prevented from accessing state and tax supported benefits or are categorically punished for breaking their vows. And the reasoning for that isn't procreation, either - in my state,a heterosexual couple who are first cousins can be married as long as they are over 50 and one of them can prove they are sterile. In another state, a man serving a prison term for child sexual abuse (gosh, a former priest) was allowed to marry an ex-nun, even though they cannot consummate the relationship.

When heterosexuality is involved, the state keeps it's nose pretty much out of the picture of personal choice. . .citing it as a basic human right. Then when a gay couple wants access to those benefits, they are told they are sinful by "choice" and the punishment for that is theft of property, denial of self and partner choice for funeral arrangements and state refusal to accept partner decisions on health or hospital visitation privileges. What this ends up amounting to, for them, is legalized theft of their lives and identities, based only on some religious interpretations of the meaning of scripture.

I read a story during the recent constitutional amendment debacle in Missouri that related the story of a gay partner who followed his dying partner's funeral wishes to the letter - only to have the legally recognized "family" go to court, exhume the body from the grave, and move it to an undisclosed location. You won't hear those churches talk about that kind of conduct or behavior, or the grief or hardship they endorse.

Surprisingly enough, when a large majority of Missourians passed that constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman only, they likely opened their own statutory regulation regarding heterosexual incestual relationships up for a constitutional challenge. That means a brother and a sister could probably challenge the state based on this new wording in the constitution. In the haste to prevent their own gay citizens access to any state benefits or responsibilities of family law, the good and "moral" citizens of Missouri may have just legalized incest. But I'm sure that biblical principle can be ignored as well. . .just as those registered sex offenders are not prohibited from marriage no matter how many commandments they've broken or violent crimes against their relationships they have committed. For some reason, the Bible only becomes the tool for legislative persecution when it involves people who aren't like ourselves - similar to that former biblical belief that the seperation of race was justified by God's intent. The Word didn't change, but the interpretation eventually did. . .but strangely enough, those who perpetrated that former interpretation did not expect that any of their own rights be abridged as social punishment for misinterpretation of the Bible.

In this nation, not all christians interpret scripture in an identical manner. Just as Pepper's church has decided this is a "sin," does it mean that an Episcopal interpretation is therefore wrong and those gays who believe in that faith be legally denied the same citizenship and human right to intimate association that those of Pepper's church enjoy?

Hi Kbm,

You show good reason(s) why the Founding Fathers wanted separation of church and state.

The history and past and present practices of religion(s) - something that IS created by man - proves beyond any doubt and shows exactly why our Founding Fathers were absolutely right to want complete separation of church and state. People are entirely free to believe in whatever religion they wish but it should be totally asccurate, honest, sincere, helpful, etc. and totally separate and have nothing to do with the government of the whole of the people since there are thousands of religions and beliefs all differing to some extent. Our Founding Fathers were hoping to create a country of peace and good will among all people. Having people generally get along well and with each other. Religion(s) - and politics - (and they have always been strange bedfellows) have been totally responsible for the misery of, and the death of people throughout the world. The Middle East is a prime example of the destruction caused by religion and religious beliefs. There has never been peace in that region and I hate to say probably never will be - BECAUSE of religion(s) and religious beliefs. Those that have become the focus of that hatred, etc. know for sure. And those that are the authors of that hatred, bigotry, etc. will never see the eyes of God - the REAL God. They lie to themselves, their friends, and to God.

Take Care, John H.

 

[Spitfire]