Eating before bed (carbs)........

[P-funk]

I know this is a hot topic. here was something Alan Aragon said in an interview he did for Lyle McDonald's newsletter regarding a question about eating carbs in the last meal when cutting:

When you stop to think about it, allocating carbs immediately pre-bed would potentially help with muscle retention, regardless of caloric balance. Purposely omitting or avoiding carbs pre-bed is like telling someone to avoid carbs immediately before starting their 8-hour shift sitting at a desk.

questions, comments, concerns.

I eat carbs before bed all the time. Even when cutting and even when I did a BB'ing contest. I tend to agree with his statement.

 

[Tom_B]

I fell the same way P-funk, I personally always have about 30-35G of carbs or so coming from Cottage cheese, strawberries and wheat bran before bed. (some days 60 - 70G of carbs, depending on if I have two servings of my last meal or not .. I'm a pig).
I find the carbs help to maintain glycogen stores overnight without having huge impact on blood sugar, or insulin levels which is a great advantage for me considering I work out practically first thing in the am.

At the end of the day it's going to come down to Calories in vs Calories out as to whether or not your pre bed meal (be it with carbs or not) is stored as fat.

Here's a nice post from Emma-Leigh in the past

Well - insulin sensitivity and the bodies ability to take carbs out of the blood stream are pretty much the same thing...

But all I can say is "Not really" -

Firstly, it actually takes a significant carbohydrate over-feeding event to cause a recognisable episode of de-novo lipogenesis. So the simple fact that you are eating a carbohydrate is 'protective' for fat gain in intself. And if you are in a hypocalorific state then your body is not going to take that precious glucose and convert it to anything resembling fat. It is going to go stay in the form of glucose and used as fuel.

Secondly - the decrease in insulin sensitivity that is experienced during the day is a non-event for most people - the slight difference is not going to have a huge effect on your glucose disposal.

Thirdly - there are organs/processes in the body which due not require insulin (or a great deal of insulin) to take up glucose (things like the liver for example). Also - the body does not require a huge level of insulin for the disposal of the levels of glucose we are talking about - so you are going to be able to take it up anyway.


What contributes to bodyfat storage is:
1. continual hypercalorific state combined with
2. inactivity and
3. things such as a high intake of saturated fats and transfats and a low omega-3 fatty intake,
4. a hugely excessive daily intakes of fructose, which is usually in the form of sucrose and HFCS (NOT FRUIT!!!)
5. low protein intake

These will all contribute to a metabolic 'shift' towards fat gain...


Simply 'eating carbs at night' will not.

 

[P-funk]

yea. I agree 100%. I think the whole not eating carbs at bed thing is blown out of proportion.

that Emma Leigh is one smart cookie (hmmm....maybe I will have cookies before bed).

 

[Jodi]

Nope, I disagree completely!

As I've said in the past.....carbs before bed........

1. Circadian Rhythm disturbance
2. Increase Cortisol
3. Interferes with utilization of IGF-1

 

[vortrit]

I'm not going to tell someone else what to eat or not eat before bed, but I know for a fact I don't sleep well at all if I have very many carbs before bed.

 

[Emma-Leigh]

As tom stated - I have long been known to advocate carbs at night... Constantly get 'shot down' about it... but I tell people to eat carbs and my pre-bed meal is one of my largest.



Some other posts I have posted in the past on people asking about 'pre-bed meals'-

I would grab something with all three macro's. The carbs can actually be REALLY helpful in replenishing liver glycogen before you sleep (and this is not only highly anabolic, but is anti-catabolic too). You would also want some fibre and fats (to slow digestion) and, of course, your slow digesting protein.

So something like oats with cottage cheese, walnuts/linseeds, skim milk and berries would be a good example.

And another one here:

Firstly - your metabolism doesn't 'slow' markedly at night time.... Your ACTIVITY level decreases (and, yes, as such your energy needs WILL be less than during the day) but your body is still 'ticking over' and it still burns at a basal rate (a lot of people confuse 'basal metabolism' and 'total energy expenditure' and these two things are entirely seperate and should be thought of as such).

My opinion on pre-bed meals.... While total daily calorie consumption is the greatest influence on what your body does (that is - if you grow or if you lose fat) manipulating energy intake and ensuring you are eating well at strategic times can have specific effects, especially for those who are very lean already.
As everyone is probably aware - night time is when growth hormone levels are higher (well - earlier in the evening and during the light phases of sleep). Night time is also when cortisol levels begins to peak (early in the morning - starts to rise about 3am ish, and stays up until about 8am... which is - at least according to a theory I have - why ill/hospitalised or elderly people usually happen to die during this time).
Anyway - making sure you eat to maximise/minimise the effects of these is something you can do... So pre-bed meal as an important area where you can prevent muscle loss if cutting (minimise the effect of the cortisol peak) and help to promote anabolism if trying to grow (maximise the effects of both the growth hormone release as well as ensuring hepatic glycogen stores are never completely empty).
[Of course - the other important meals being the first meal of the day, pre workout and, to a certain extent, post workout as well].
Also - if you are working out early in the mornings (which is when a lot of people DO workout) having a larger meal the night prior helps to 'top you up' and maintain a semi-decent liver glycogen store during the evening (which is, despite what people believe, decreased during sleep - your brain can not use 'fats' for fuel and will continue to burn that energy being released from your liver...) and, as such, will allow you to have a better workout the next day.
But enough babbling... I believe this is the article being spoken of (well, it is one which I have spoken with her about anyway). So I am going to throw it into the mix too (click on the title for a link to the full article, but below is the Abstract):

Weight Loss is Greater with Consumption of Large Morning Meals and Fat-Free Mass Is Preserved with Large Evening Meals in Women on a Controlled Weight Reduction Regimen
Keim NL, Van Loan MD, Horn WF, Barbieri TF, Mayclin PL.
U.S. Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service, Western Human Nutrition Research Center, Presidio of San Francisco, CA 94129, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine whether meal ingestion pattern [large morning meals (AM) vs. large evening meals (PM)] affects changes in body weight, body composition or energy utilization during weight loss. Ten women completed a metabolic ward study of 3-wk weight stabilization followed by 12 wk of weight loss with a moderately energy restricted diet [mean energy intake +/- SD = 107 +/- 6 kJ/(kg.d)] and regular exercise. The weight loss phase was divided into two 6-wk periods. During period 1, 70% of daily energy intake was taken as two meals in the AM (n = 4) or in the PM (n = 6). Subjects crossed over to the alternate meal time in period 2. Both weight loss and fat-free mass loss were greater with the AM than the PM meal pattern: 3.90 +/- 0.19 vs. 3.27 +/- 0.26 kg/6 wk, P < 0.05, and 1.28 +/- 0.14 vs. 0.25 +/- 0.16 kg/6 wk, P < 0.001, respectively. Change in fat mass and loss of body energy were affected by order of meal pattern ingestion. The PM pattern resulted in greater loss of fat mass in period 1 (P < 0.01) but not in period 2. Likewise, resting mid-afternoon fat oxidation rate was higher with the PM pattern in period 1 (P < 0.05) but not in period 2, corresponding with the fat mass changes. To conclude, ingestion of larger AM meals resulted in slightly greater weight loss, but ingestion of larger PM meals resulted in better maintenance of fat-free mass. Thus, incorporation of larger PM meals in a weight loss regimen may be important in minimizing the loss of fat-free mass.
PMID: 9040548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Basically shows the positive effects on lean mass when you think about maintaining that hepatic storage/ supply of nutrients overnight...

And again:

Your body doesn't give a brass-ra-zoo about the "time". It doesn't flick a switch at 6pm and say "all carbs now ingested shall have one fate - to become baby fat cells"...

Ok... yes - insulin sensitivity will be SLIGHTLY decreased at night... But the magnitude of this decrease is insignificant.

Also - think about things in terms of quantity - we are talking about a meal of, what, 73-ish grams of carbs right? So:
73g x 4 cals = 290 cals (roughly speaking... although the exact conversion of ingested energy to net energy in the body is much more complex than the basic atwater factors can describe)...

Anyway - 290 cals from carbs... So, even if EVERY SINGLE calorie of the ingested carbs where to be shuttled into the formation of fat tissue for storage how much do you think that will effect your body composition...?? But.... By the way - this is not going to happen..... Significant levels of denovo lipogenesis is pretty hard to achieve with carbohydrates - regardless of what people suggest. Most individuals will actually end up using the carbs (burning them off) or they will store them as glycogen... It is only after PROLONGED (days) of carbohydrate overfeeding that you start to get an appreciable impact on bodyfat stores.

Anyway - Back to the topic... And as I was saying - even if all of those calories from the carbs were to be directed into fat storage (and if you were to then ignore the energy cost of conversion to fat - which is also pretty significant) then 290 those cals would equal a grand total of 32g of tissue (on a pure ENERGY for GRAM basis - which is 9 cals of energy = 1g of fat)... That is one puny oz... BUT - as I said, complete conversion of those carbs directly to fat mass is not going to happen...

The carbs taken up and used by your 'hungry muscles', there is also the energy lost via digestion/ absorption/ processing and metabolism... and then all those other things that help with energy dissapation in the face of calorie excess (NEAT)... And then there are also those other things as well like:
- your total calorie intake
- your physiological state (that is, hormone status etc etc)
- your age/ sex (which contribute to the above)
- your inherent partitioning potential (how well you are genetically 'programmed' to partition incoming energy towards lean mass v's fat mass)
- blah, blah, blah...

So... Ummm... Yes... Eat the damn carbs - carbohydrate later in the evening are generally a GOOD THING anyway!! Even when CUTTING they can be beneficial! Those carbs helps to "top up" your liver glycogen stores which will, in turn, help to maintain your blood glucose levels overnight. This means there are less 'triggers' for the release of hormones such as glucogon and cortisol - both of which decrease muscle repair and cause an increase release of amino acids from muscle tissue into the blood (to feed gluconeogenesis)... So having a larger, BALANCED evening meal has actually been found to be correlated with a better retention in lean muscle mass when hypocalorific.

 

[Tom_B]

^^^ Like P-funk said you certainly are one smart cookie!!
And that is the reason I have sooo many of your posts bookmarked and read over 24/7 hahaha. Seriously you're like a medical journal!

 

[P-funk]

Nope, I disagree completely!

As I've said in the past.....carbs before bed........

1. Circadian Rhythm disturbance
2. Increase Cortisol
3. Interferes with utilization of IGF-1

all good arguments.

Gotta go to work (yuk, long day....blah).

Will be back tonight to try and find some research.

 

[tucker01]

Working on Good Friday ouch... NO HOLIDAY FOR YOU

 

[Witchblade]

Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

1. The pro eat-carbs-before-bed group hasn't adressed jodi's 3 points (especially 2 as it contradicts what Emma said directly).

2. That study doesn't mean anything. It's about an unbalanced diet firstly and about evening VS morning meals secondly. The subjects did not have a balanced diet and the study doesn't talk about carbs before bed at all. It's completely unrelated to this discussion.

3. How big is the night time glycogen depletion effect really if you ingest fats and protein before bed seeing you're completely inactive? And if the depletion levels are so big, why would you only need 50g of carbs to negate them?

 

[Jodi]

Working on Good Friday ouch... NO HOLIDAY FOR YOU

We don't get good friday off here in the states

 

[BulkMeUp]

We don't get good friday off here in the states

 

[Uthinkso]

Working on Good Friday ouch... NO HOLIDAY FOR YOU

He's not the only one I'm posting from my QC Lab right now.


Good thread...I'm keeping an eye on this. All good information.

 

[Jodi]

I'd like to throw this study to the discussion as well.

Extended effects of evening meal carbohydrate-to-fat ratio on fasting and postprandial substrate metabolism -- Robertson et al. 75 (3): 505 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

 

[ABCs]

I don't know much about this topic but wouldn't your body type, training history, and genetics play a pretty big role on how carbs would effect you before bed?

 

[Jodi]

I don't know much about this topic but wouldn't your body type, training history, and genetics play a pretty big role on how carbs would effect you before bed?

Most definately!

 

[Jodi]

And another: Circadian modulation of glucose and insulin responses to meals: relationship to cortisol rhythm -- Van Cauter et al. 262 (4): E467 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism

 

[Uthinkso]

Jodi's not gonna take this one laying down

 

[Jodi]

I think it's good for everyone to see both sides of the fence.

I do need to note here though that almost everyone that has asked about carbs in the evening are those struggling with their weight for years now and this really needs to be taken into account.

Trust me, I wish I had the metabolism that Emma, Pfunk and TomB has but I don't, I never will, and I know most of the people reading this don't either. Not to say they are wrong, because sure, for the healthy, fast metabolsim folks they can get away with this a little better but most of us are not as fortunate.

 

[Bakerboy]

Working on Good Friday ouch... NO HOLIDAY FOR YOU

Canada 23 USA 0

 

[Double D]

I think it's good for everyone to see both sides of the fence.

I do need to note here though that almost everyone that has asked about carbs in the evening are those struggling with their weight for years now and this really needs to be taken into account.

Trust me, I wish I had the metabolism that Emma, Pfunk and TomB has but I don't, I never will, and I know most of the people reading this don't either. Not to say they are wrong, because sure, for the healthy, fast metabolsim folks they can get away with this a little better but most of us are not as fortunate.

Oh so right on!

 

[Jodi]

Many of us have the genetic code for fatness. Since I was a child I've struggled with my weight and it wasn't because I didn't exercise enough or ate like shit all the time. Sure, when I was younger I ate a lot worse than I do now but not to the extent to make me fat but I got fat. I've struggled ever since I can remember. I actually recall in first grade looking at myself in the mirror and wondering why I looked so big compared to my classmates. Surely I ate as well as they did. It's a good thing I've been athletic all my life so I never go really big but I was very overweight at one point.

It's in my genetic code. My mother is over 300lbs, my Grandmother is over 225, my Aunt is in the 200 range, I have a sister who is 4'11" and she is over 200lbs. The only saving grace for my other 2 sisters and I is that we refuse to get like that. Each of us have had our times where we did gain more than we should but it's been our lifestyle choices that have saved us.

I have a slow metabolism, I have thyroid disease, diabetes runs in my family, heart disease runs in my family so yeah, many people think I'm strict on this board but what are my options? That's why when I say something like "stay away from the carrots at night" that's because in cases like mine, macronutrient timing is one of the most important things we have to control this.

So I see people talking about how they have struggled with weight and then cry when I tell them they should stay away from carbs at night. Sure, if I had a great metabolism you'd can betcha ass I wouldn't be as concerned with my macronutrient timing as I am now.

Then theres the cortisol and circadian rythms.............

 

[Double D]

I am hurt. Whats wrong with being in the 200 range?

 

[Jodi]

Nothing if you aren't female barely hitting 5'.

 

[Double D]

Ya ya, you know I am only messin.

But a sexy female only hitting 5'?

 

[Jodi]

I wouldn't say a female at 5' @ 200+lbs is sexy Trust me, they don't look good. lol.

 

[danzik17]

I'm in the same damn boat - one side of my family has great genetics and can eat whatever and not gain weight. The other side gains weight easily. Guess which fucking side I got stuck on

Especially sucks when both my brother and sister have the better side of the genetics, so it's just like WTF. I do think that I probably put on muscle a little easier than either of them though.

 

[Double D]

I wouldn't say a female at 5' @ 200+lbs is sexy Trust me, they don't look good. lol.

Ya I know this for a fact! I have plenty of short fat aunts.

 

[Phred]

I'm in the same damn boat - one side of my family has great genetics and can eat whatever and not gain weight. The other side gains weight easily. Guess which fucking side I got stuck on

Especially sucks when both my brother and sister have the better side of the genetics, so it's just like WTF. I do think that I probably put on muscle a little easier than either of them though.

At least you had a chance with one side of the family. Both sides of mine are obese. I had no chance. Not complaining, just stating the facts. It is a struggle.

 

[Witchblade]

Many of us have the genetic code for fatness. Since I was a child I've struggled with my weight and it wasn't because I didn't exercise enough or ate like shit all the time. Sure, when I was younger I ate a lot worse than I do now but not to the extent to make me fat but I got fat. I've struggled ever since I can remember. I actually recall in first grade looking at myself in the mirror and wondering why I looked so big compared to my classmates. Surely I ate as well as they did. It's a good thing I've been athletic all my life so I never go really big but I was very overweight at one point.

It's in my genetic code. My mother is over 300lbs, my Grandmother is over 225, my Aunt is in the 200 range, I have a sister who is 4'11" and she is over 200lbs. The only saving grace for my other 2 sisters and I is that we refuse to get like that. Each of us have had our times where we did gain more than we should but it's been our lifestyle choices that have saved us.

I have a slow metabolism, I have thyroid disease, diabetes runs in my family, heart disease runs in my family so yeah, many people think I'm strict on this board but what are my options? That's why when I say something like "stay away from the carrots at night" that's because in cases like mine, macronutrient timing is one of the most important things we have to control this.

So I see people talking about how they have struggled with weight and then cry when I tell them they should stay away from carbs at night. Sure, if I had a great metabolism you'd can betcha ass I wouldn't be as concerned with my macronutrient timing as I am now.

Then theres the cortisol and circadian rythms.............

That certainly explains your strictness. I think everyone would understand if you noted it down like this.

It may be a good idea to formulate your strict rules with this in mind. Keeping things a bit more relative can't hurt and people would be less inclined to think you're being rude.