Pull ups for lat development

[ceazur]

merkaba
your quote here i have to disagree with.

"Again, the latest fad, like kettlebells...with so many people not really knowing what they are even trying to accomplish".

fad????they have been around 200 years .. i have been using them since 1960.. as long as you have proper guidance, this training is great.
sure , you wont see them at most gyms, but they will be in any hardcore gym that has been aroung for years, and i know they are in every gymnastic gym.
all the little outside the box training ways really help the traditional ways. trouble is most people knock this type of training before they every try it.
i started with wooden dumbells and kettlebells, and slowly over the years worked up in weight.
to each their own i guess..

Since 1960? FFS old man. You should have either already accomplished perfection or died trying. Merkaba was referring to the fact that for years alot of people stopped using kettleballs as much as berfore. Now they are coming back into trend and being used more often than the past 10 years.
Wooden dumbells? Who could curl more? You or Noah?

 

[Phineas]

merkaba
your quote here i have to disagree with.

"Again, the latest fad, like kettlebells...with so many people not really knowing what they are even trying to accomplish".

fad????they have been around 200 years .. i have been using them since 1960.. as long as you have proper guidance, this training is great.
sure , you wont see them at most gyms, but they will be in any hardcore gym that has been aroung for years, and i know they are in every gymnastic gym.
all the little outside the box training ways really help the traditional ways. trouble is most people knock this type of training before they every try it.
i started with wooden dumbells and kettlebells, and slowly over the years worked up in weight.
to each their own i guess..

If I may step in, I think what Merkaba was saying is that, like with all the other fitness trends, people are blindlessly incorporating kettlebells into workouts without knowledge of their proper role in training, the mechanics of the movements, or how they differ from traditional weights.

People are just told by such "experts" as crossfit instructors that kettlebells are the latest'n'greatest, and so these people go out and load up on kettlebell movements without proper instruction on form or without even researching what they're intended for. Most people don't take the time to research training and diet as it pertains to them; they just go to a gym, grab a hold of anything they're told to, and start doing exercises with no rhyme or reason. Where's the periodization? Even the most casual fitness-minded individual should have some sort of a plan, even if it is very basic, otherwise you're just going in circles.

I agree that with proper guidance kettleballs can be effective. However, the majority of gym-go'ers are misguided.

 

[Phineas]

Since 1960? FFS old man. You should have either already accomplished perfection or died trying. Merkaba was referring to the fact that for years alot of people stopped using kettleballs as much as berfore. Now they are coming back into trend and being used more often than the past 10 years.
Wooden dumbells? Who could curl more? You or Noah?

It's a matter of a potentially-useful training tool taken out of context, which winds up in the tool not doing its intended job.

It's like when people take the mish-mash principles into their training. Remember that video of the guy squatting on top of a swiss ball? Well, the fitness industry advocates strength training and, particularly, balance movements. This is why it's so common to see at gyms people doing low-intensity military presses off of those balancing half-balls, whatever they're called. Sure, it may be difficult, but that's mainly because most people have terrible balance -- which is perfectly fine. The average person doesn't need to be able to balance themselves in these unusual ways that they come up with at gyms. The problem is the need to "stabalize" (a key sucker word in the fitness industry) requires less weight for what would otherwise be a highly-productive exercise. Sure, you would probably want that specific balance if you're a soccer player or a basketball player, but if you're someone looking to simply get "fit" or "toned", whatever, is that really the most productive way to achieving your goals? Staple compound lifts like squats and pullups require a much greater deal of muscular effort yet still demand strong stabalizer musclers. The added bonus is the cardio element, which is far greater than than these unsual balancing exercises.

It's a perfect example of common fitness principles taken out of context because of scoundrel marketing.

 

[Built]

I agree that with proper guidance kettleballs can be effective. However, the majority of gym-go'ers are misguided.

To be fair, Phineas, this is true for any other exercise modality. How are kipping chins or kettlebells any different from squats or deads in this regard?

 

[ceazur]

I agree that with proper guidance kettleballs can be effective. However, the majority of gym-go'ers are misguided.

If you beat off enough correctly, then your forearms will also grow.

 

[PushAndPull]

To be fair, Phineas, this is true for any other exercise modality. How are kipping chins or kettlebells any different from squats or deads in this regard?

You have a good point with the kettlebells, but kipping chins? I think kipping chins are an incorrectly performed pull up, period. To be clear, are you saying that you believe that "kipping chins" are a good exercise if performed correctly?

 

[Phineas]

To be fair, Phineas, this is true for any other exercise modality. How are kipping chins or kettlebells any different from squats or deads in this regard?

I agree.

I was just speaking about kettleballs at the moment because stepaukas was arguing against Merkaba who referred specifically to them as a new trend that people are following blindly.

 

[stepaukas]

phineas
yes, i agree with your post (#32).
trouble with most gyms is they have young guys running them that dont know very much, and they have nice looking girls as trainers that dont know a thing.
usually in most big cities, you'll find a few very old hard core gyms (like the one arnold was training in in pumping iron).i think that was golds, or world gym.. anyway, the old gyms are usually run by older guys that have been around, and were great athletes, that give you and show you the proper training and tequnique....
just like rope climbing and pole climbing. new to some because of crossfit, but those two been around years.
we climbed poles and ropes to the top of our gym. back in the 60's great great exercise..
(ok ceasure, make fun of me cause i'm old).
but yes i agree, as long as proper coaching is there, all the out of the box exercises are great. do those exercises and regular ones..
you guys on this board are building a bodybuilding body. i build strength for cycling..
totally different.
but, out of a million posts on this forums, you still can pick up that one tip that will help you..
i'm old, per ceasure, but aint old enough to keep trying to improve myself..

 

[Built]

I haven't personally done kipping chins, but what's your problem with them pushandpull?

 

[PushAndPull]

I haven't personally done kipping chins, but what's your problem with them pushandpull?

The same problem with cheating on any exercise. If you cannot perform the exercise correctly then you're not ready for that exercise. If someone was unable to do pull ups, a good recommendation might be negatives and then finish with lat pull-downs. A bad recommendation would be to teach them to cheat with improper form, such as kipping. Then you have more experienced lifters who do kipping pull ups to inflate their numbers, these egotistical assholes set a bad example for beginners and lead them to believe it's a legitimate exercise.

 

[Built]

Ah, you're thinking they're the same as a pullup. By your definition, a hang clean is an incorrectly executed upright row.

 

[Phineas]

If you beat off enough correctly, then your forearms will also grow.

 

[PushAndPull]

Ah, you're thinking they're the same as a pullup. By your definition, a hang clean is an incorrectly executed upright row.

No, i'm thinking in terms of this thread. They were put out there like an alternative to pull ups. They're not an alternative to pull-ups since very little of the lats are involved. People who do kipping pull-ups or some shitty swinging variation are very rarely looking for a fullbody workout and actually believe that they are doing pull-ups. I don't think a hang clean is an incorrectly executed upright row but a unfinished clean and press. At least the hang clean has some real value to it unlike the kipping.

 

[twarrior]

That's like asking what makes bud light taste so good..

Who said deer piss tastes so good?

 

[twarrior]

If you beat off enough correctly, then your forearms will also grow.

Ceazur,
I think your forearm training is paying off!!

 

[ramboris]

Don't worry we're getting ready to put a stop to that shit! Plus he just joined, and you see he wants you to go to his forum which he has in his status. Shit for what, its obvious you don't know what you're talking about!

Hey I don't want to argue with you because I know you are looking for any excuse to ban me. But if you think I don't know what I'm talking about then your very stupid. I train with world champion power-lifters and some very good bodybuilders and guess what? None of them think what you so boldly claim. If you want to test how smart I am then ask me any question you want. I just might surprise you.

 

[ramboris]

Are you serious? This is such flawed advice it's not even funny.

Just because you may push your body through high-intensity lifting, as in sub-maximal loads, doesn't mean you have to find yourself nearly unconscious or wanting to puke. In fact, feeling sick would be more an indication of overtraining, if anything. I've heard of people feeling sick on 20-rep squat, but that's a unique exception -- as it's intended to be a form of structured overtraining (in a sense).

On maybe three occassions I felt like puking, and none of those instances were from single heavy sets but fast-paced endurance sessions; it was more from the lactic buildup and heavy lung work than muscular fatigue.

To reach my intensity level it really takes years of balls to the walls training. You mentioned 20-rep squats. I do more reps than that, I literally go until I drop from exhaustion. Some think its stupid, but its the way I like to train. Any exercise, and I mean any exercise, if done to ultimate muscular failure (which is very hard to do) will leave you in huge amounts of pain.

Even a simple isolation exercise such as side laterals when done to full muscular failure (going to full positive failure 15-20 reps and then doing 30 partials done very slowly) will be so painful and exhausting that you will fall to the ground in agony.

Most people who think they reach positive failure only do 60-70% of what they could really do. It really takes a different type of mindset to grind out those last few impossible reps. Most people are too afraid of the pain to push themselves that hard. I know that people will start calling me stupid, that I don't know that I'm talking about, etc... And I guarantee that almost every person here will say that they train with all-out intensity, but those who are truly honest with themselves will know that I'm right.

 

[KelJu]

Hey I don't want to argue with you because I know you are looking for any excuse to ban me. But if you think I don't know what I'm talking about then your very stupid. I train with world champion power-lifters and some very good bodybuilders and guess what? None of them think what you so boldly claim. If you want to test how smart I am then ask me any question you want. I just might surprise you.

ROFL, I think you are full of shit.

 

[ramboris]

ROFL, I think you are full of shit.

If you want me to prove it pm me and I will give you the name of the gym and the people I know. I will even give you the phone # if you want. I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else. Lets stop this non-sense and talk training!

 

[ceazur]

If you want me to prove it pm me and I will give you the name of the gym and the people I know. I will even give you the phone # if you want. I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else. Lets stop this non-sense and talk training!

No let's don't an say we did.. Lets talk about the massive amounts of gayness that your spreading all over our beautiful forums.

 

[ramboris]

No let's don't an say we did.. Lets talk about the massive amounts of gayness that your spreading all over our beautiful forums.

I'm not even gonna reply to your immature posts anymore. It's obvious the only reason your here is to post garbage and make a fool of yourself.

 

[KelJu]

If you want me to prove it pm me and I will give you the name of the gym and the people I know. I will even give you the phone # if you want. I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else. Lets stop this non-sense and talk training!

Sure, please send me the phone numbers of the people you know. I don't believe you. If you send me the numbers, I'll retract everything I said.

 

[FMJ]

To reach my intensity level it really takes years of balls to the walls training. You mentioned 20-rep squats. I do more reps than that, I literally go until I drop from exhaustion. Some think its stupid, but its the way I like to train. Any exercise, and I mean any exercise, if done to ultimate muscular failure (which is very hard to do) will leave you in huge amounts of pain.

Even a simple isolation exercise such as side laterals when done to full muscular failure (going to full positive failure 15-20 reps and then doing 30 partials done very slowly) will be so painful and exhausting that you will fall to the ground in agony.

Most people who think they reach positive failure only do 60-70% of what they could really do. It really takes a different type of mindset to grind out those last few impossible reps. Most people are too afraid of the pain to push themselves that hard. I know that people will start calling me stupid, that I don't know that I'm talking about, etc... And I guarantee that almost every person here will say that they train with all-out intensity, but those who are truly honest with themselves will know that I'm right.

Don't you find that routinely going that intense all the time and taking muscles to failure consistantly is too taxing to the CNS?
How do you avoid overtraining when you keep it at full throttle like that?
The only one's who can push these limits all the time are the guys using gear and everyone know's the same rules don't apply for the natty athletes. Guys not on gear would do themselves more harm than good using a routine like you've described. Advising beginners or even seasoned lifters to take it to failure every set and every exercise is absurd, particularly if those guys are natural.

 

[Zaphod]

Guess I'll try giving negatives a try for pull-ups. Since right now I can't do one complete pull-up.

How many negatives per set and how many sets? My ultimate goal is to be able to do 10 pull-ups, from full down to chin over the bar without hyperextending my neck.

 

[PushAndPull]

Don't you find that routinely going that intense all the time and taking muscles to failure consistantly is too taxing to the CNS?
How do you avoid overtraining when you keep it at full throttle like that?
The only one's who can push these limits all the time are the guys using gear and everyone know's the same rules don't apply for the natty athletes. Guys not on gear would do themselves more harm than good using a routine like you've described. Advising beginners or even seasoned lifters to take it to failure every set and every exercise is absurd, particularly if those guys are natural.

Completely agree. This spamming retard doesn't even differentiate between people training natural and those on gear. Look at this quote

Take a look at the Tom Platz video on youtube. He does 23 or 24 reps with 500 pounds going all the way down. It's amazing, I want to be able to do that one day.

You wanna do that one day? Hope you have some fantastic gear.

 

[PushAndPull]

Guess I'll try giving negatives a try for pull-ups. Since right now I can't do one complete pull-up.

How many negatives per set and how many sets? My ultimate goal is to be able to do 10 pull-ups, from full down to chin over the bar without hyperextending my neck.

Negatives are great way to start. Maybe try 3 sets of 5 to start out with. Just depends on your current strength. I would recommend using the lat-pulldown as your next exercise.You should also check how your strength is on different grips. IMO, from hardest to easiest grip is: overhand, underhand, then neutral. So maybe you can do a few reps with a different grip, and then start your negatives. I'm glad that you don't want to hyperextend your neck, that's douchebag style.

 

[Built]

^ Agreed. Set up where you can stand on a box and get yourself to eye level that way. Then lower with just your toes on the box, knees bent, try a five second count. Work up to five sets of five negs. At first you'll just STAND to the "up" position, but eventually you'll be able to give yourself less and less of an assist.

 

[KelJu]

Negatives are great way to start. Maybe try 3 sets of 5 to start out with. Just depends on your current strength. I would recommend using the lat-pulldown as your next exercise.You should also check how your strength is on different grips. IMO, from hardest to easiest grip is: overhand, underhand, then neutral. So maybe you can do a few reps with a different grip, and then start your negatives. I'm glad that you don't want to hyperextend your neck, that's douchebag style.

I forgot all about negatives. Hmm, I think I'll do some negatives today.

 

[ramboris]

Don't you find that routinely going that intense all the time and taking muscles to failure consistantly is too taxing to the CNS?
How do you avoid overtraining when you keep it at full throttle like that?
The only one's who can push these limits all the time are the guys using gear and everyone know's the same rules don't apply for the natty athletes. Guys not on gear would do themselves more harm than good using a routine like you've described. Advising beginners or even seasoned lifters to take it to failure every set and every exercise is absurd, particularly if those guys are natural.

I am natural also. Yes, the CNS does get overtaxed if this kind of training is continued long enough. Even if one uses steroids the CNS still eventually gets stressed so much that you need to take a break. That's why I do "active recovery" every 6-8 weeks in order to let my CNS recover. During active recover I just do cardio and abs. This phase usually lasts 7-9 days. My training style is as intense as one human can train, but its also perfect. Everything about it is perfectly planned out so I can continue getting stronger/bigger.

 

[ramboris]

Completely agree. This spamming retard doesn't even differentiate between people training natural and those on gear. Look at this quote



You wanna do that one day? Hope you have some fantastic gear.

I am natural and I already explained what I do in the above post.

Being natural doesn't mean you cant train intensely. Stop making excuses! Yes, steroids do help a lot, but that doesn't mean a natural cant make good, consistent progress.

And about the squat comment "hope you have some fantastic gear," I am not far away from that goal lol. I predict that I will be able to reach it within the next 3-4 years. Nothing is impossible if you believe in yourself and are willing to work hard enough to achieve your goal. I will post the video on youtube to show you guys when I reach my goal.