critique the w/o

[mcveigh1]

Day 1: Chest
Incline Bench / Flat Bench 5x12,4,10,10,10
Flat DB press / Incline DB press 5x10,10,10,10,10
Decline Machine 4x10,10,10,10
DB Fly/ Peck Deck/ Crossover 4x10,10,10,10

Day 2: Back
DB Bent Over Rows / Barbell Bent Over Rows 5x12,4,10,10,10
Seated Pulley Rows / T-Bar Rows 5x10,10,10,10,10
Lat Pulldown / WG Lat Pulldown 5x10,10,10,10,10
Pullover Machine / Cable Pulldown 5x10,10,10,10,10

Day 3: Quads/Calves
Leg Extensions 5x12,4,10,10,10
Squats / Front Squats 5x10,10,10,10,10
Angled Leg Press / Seated Leg Press 4x10,10,10,10
Adductor/ Abductor 4x20,20,20,20

Day 4: Shoulders
DB Shoulder Press / Military Press 5x12,4,10,10,10
Machine Shoulder press
Barbell Upright Row / Cable Upright Row 4x[10-12]
DB shoulder fly 4x[12-15]

Day 5: Tris/Hamstrings
Pulley Pushdowns 5x[10-12]
OH DB press 5x[10-12]
Lying EZ-curl triceps extensions 4x[10-12]
kickbacks 4x[10-12]
Lying Leg Curl 4x[15]
Seated Leg Curl Machine 4x[15]

Day 6: Bis
Seated Alt DB curls 5x[10-12]
Standing cable curl 5x[10-12]
Incline Curls 4x[10-12]
Machine Curl 4x[10-12]

Day 7: Off

There is more variation than this but this is a good idea of what's happening

any info is appreciated, thanks in advance

 

[Built]

I shall indicate what I don't like as I go...

Day 1: Chest
Incline Bench / Flat Bench 5x12,4,10,10,10
Flat DB press / Incline DB press 5x10,10,10,10,10
Decline Machine 4x10,10,10,10***nuke.
DB Fly/ Peck Deck/ Crossover 4x10,10,10,10***nuke. How about adding dips?

Day 2: Back
DB Bent Over Rows / Barbell Bent Over Rows 5x12,4,10,10,10
Seated Pulley Rows / T-Bar Rows 5x10,10,10,10,10
Lat Pulldown / WG Lat Pulldown 5x10,10,10,10,10***shoulder-width or narrower.
Pullover Machine / Cable Pulldown 5x10,10,10,10,10*** do these one arm at a time.

I don't see any deads or weighted chins in here.

Day 3: Quads/Calves
Leg Extensions 5x12,4,10,10,10
Squats / Front Squats 5x10,10,10,10,10
Angled Leg Press / Seated Leg Press 4x10,10,10,10
Adductor/ Abductor 4x20,20,20,20***please don't do this. It's bad enough when women do these.

Day 4: Shoulders
DB Shoulder Press / Military Press 5x12,4,10,10,10
Machine Shoulder press***no need
Barbell Upright Row / Cable Upright Row 4x[10-12]***lousy on the rotator cuff with no net gain over better movements
DB shoulder fly 4x[12-15] ***fine for a pump at the end - this is the right place to place them.

Suggestions: hang clean/clean and press, push presses, Olympic bar corner presses, Arnold presses

Day 5: Tris/Hamstrings
Pulley Pushdowns 5x[10-12]***waste of time
OH DB press 5x[10-12]***not bad
Lying EZ-curl triceps extensions 4x[10-12] ***try close grip bench press
kickbacks 4x[10-12] ***See what I said about adductor/abductors, above.
Lying Leg Curl 4x[15] ***pretty much useless.
Seated Leg Curl Machine 4x[15] ***different flavour of pretty much useless.
For hams, try Romanian deadlifts and SHELC

Day 6: Bis
Seated Alt DB curls 5x[10-12] ***Do 'em standing
Standing cable curl 5x[10-12] *** why? You just did alternating dumbbell curls.
Incline Curls 4x[10-12]*** why? You just did alternating dumbbell curls.
Machine Curl 4x[10-12]*** why? You just did alternating dumbbell curls.


Day 7: Off

****************

One whole day off!

I see only one day with any substantial leg work, 5 days of upper body work, too much isolation work and too much machine work.

I would totally scrap the setup and build a better split (or use one that's already written up) that incorporates the suggestions I've made into a framework that is balanced upper and lower, push and pull and works movement patterns rather than bodyparts. Look for a split that begins each movement with a heavy compound free-weight lift, such as squats, deads, chins, cleans, bench.

 

[mcveigh1]

i forgot to mention calves
standing calf raise 4x[20]
seated calf raise / calf raise on seated leg press 4x[20]



some background info about myself
5'7" 200lbs 22yo
working out since 12 February 2005. How do i know this exact date? Well, because i weighed in at about 255lbs after losing about 10-15lbs over the course of the summer of 04 through that winter. I went down to about 170lbs
with 4 day week lifting 6 day a week recumbent bike work, and completely restructuring my diet. that means lifting + bike would put me at like 2.5hrs in the gym. Realizing i may be overdoing it i backed off my cardio work and have been holding about 200lbs for a year or so. I do have a training partner who helped me do this and we still work out together every workout

so i am not new at this

At that time I did a push and pull split and the cardio

rule of thumb for bis is 2 one armed 2 two armed and alt seated and standing

i did do deadlifts, but didnt feel they were oh so beneficial for me

in reference to legs, what will help broaden quad sweep?
i knew hams were shitty
are you suggesting i do legs twice a week?

whats with the no WG pulldowns, and i do the cable pulldowns one arm at a time

i am towards the heavy side for weighted chins and would need to work up to quality chins, a 45lb weighted chin would put my shoulders at injury risk [245lbs]

i do CG bench it varies with the other workouts
-pressdown is done first to warm up elbows training partner has elbow issues

thanks for the input built

 

[Built]

First up, nice work on changing your life around! I did the same thing 7 years ago - went from 40% bodyfat and on type II diabetes meds to my current profile pic, 14%, drug free.

Feels great, don't it?

Now, to address your questions.
WG pulldowns don't build width. Now, heavy pulling does, but the width of the grip doesn't do that part. Quite in fact, wide-grip takes the emphasis off the lat and places it on the rotator cuff. Weighted chins with the appropriate grip won't put your shoulders at risk of injury - no more so than any type of progressive resistance puts your body at risk of injury.

As an aside, shoulder injury is why I recommended you ditch the upright rows. That one is flat out a shitty movement. With a world of far better shoulder exercises out there, why bother?

I like two leg workouts a week, one focusing on quads and one on hip/hamstrings. I like to use a few different rep ranges for these, and toss in higher rep antagonist work when training the agonist heavy.

Something like 5x5 heavy back squats, followed by 3x8 front squats and 3x12 single-leg SHELC works nicely for quad work with a little ham/hip stimulation.

On a heavy hamstring day, you could try 5x5 Romanian deads, followed by 3x8 glute ham raises and then three 8-rep supersets of sissy squats and the top half of leg extensions. Alternatively, you could do 3 sets of walking lunges in here on this day.

You can take a look at my split for ideas. You may choose to do something else, but have a look at the rep ranges (Thibaudeau's article, linked at the top) and take anything from it you find helpful.

Got Built? » Baby Got Back

 

[Gazhole]

Totally agree with what built said.

Cut it down to 3 or 4 days a week, a 4 day split - upper pull/push and lower ham/quad.

Just cut out the chaff and stick to basic movements, theres a lot of stuff in there (that Built pointed out) that you could cut with no detriment to your results.

 

[mcveigh1]

again thanks for the input built
congrats on your accomplishments as well [sick pic btw]
im drug free as well just lots of hard work
and yes it does feel good

and here's a cliche that i use a lot now
-if i can do it anyone can do it
^that shit is true, and damn annoying to hear

the only prob i have with the 4 day split is the psychological shock of not being in the gym every day

 

[Built]

again thanks for the input built
congrats on your accomplishments as well [sick pic btw]
im drug free as well just lots of hard work
and yes it does feel good

and here's a cliche that i use a lot now
-if i can do it anyone can do it
^that shit is true, and damn annoying to hear

the only prob i have with the 4 day split is the psychological shock of not being in the gym every day

You get over that part when you realize you grow better when you recover longer.

Thanks for the props. I'm 42 in that pic. Trying to get a little leaner this cut.

If you need to be in the gym one more day, try a 5th day with hill repeats and stretching. Hill repeats really bring up your work capacity! If you're not cutting right now, just feed yourself an extra 500 calories or so that day.

You ever done them?

 

[powerrack]

I'm a gym addict too, but with average genetics or less and being drug free, 4days is enough. If you really want to do 5 days which I think is not that great you could do your 1 body part a day split, but I would be in and out of the gym real quick. Not as much volume, I'd just get the warm up in then straight to my workout, honestly a shoulder day would be 30minutes, same with an arm day. You could be successful if you do it this way.

 

[mcveigh1]

^yeah its just my own unwillingness to believe i can get more with less

and no i've never done hill repeats, what are they?

and second question 42? a little leaner? lol, yeah i guess thats decent...

 

[Built]

Hill repeats are in this article:
Got Built? » How to do Cardio if you MUST!

 

[Gazhole]

Just to put 6 day training splits into perspective, i have made massive gains on a 2 day a week program before.

Just because you are training less frequently doesnt mean you are doing less work, if you increase the intensity and lower the volume from 2x20 to 4x4 you're doing "less" volume, but i think youll agree youll be a lot more beat up after the heavier sets.

Its the same deal. Less movements, less days, but they are bigger movements, the days are more focused, and will be a lot more difficult.

 

[mcveigh1]

hey gaz just curious what was your 2 day split? how was it broken up? cardio? days off?

 

[ihateschoolmt]

I can't speak for Gaz, but if I did a 2 day routine it would be two full body workouts on monday then thursday.

 

[Built]

That would be my plan as well.

 

[trapzilla]

I think it is only fair to give an alternative view of things, don't worry i'm not going to preach my style of training but keep it more in line with his intended volume;

I shall indicate what I don't like as I go...

Day 1: Chest
Incline Bench / Flat Bench 5x12,4,10,10,10
Flat DB press / Incline DB press 5x10,10,10,10,10
Flat/incline db flye 3 x 10, 10, 10-I believe excellent for buildign chest width and building coracobrachilais(sp)
dips(shoulder allowing)/cable crossovers 3 x12, 12, 12 both movements provide good whole chest stimulation if the crossovers are performed more bent over than usual.


Day 2: Back
DB Bent Over Rows / Barbell Bent Over Rows 5x12,4,10,10,10
Seated Pulley Rows / T-Bar Rows 5x10,10,10,10,10
Lat Pulldown / WG Lat Pulldown 5x10,10,10,10,10***shoulder-width or narrower. I would rather see an underhand shoulder width grip too owing to wide grips not hitting the lats but the teres groups.
Pullover Machine / Cable Pulldown 5x10,10,10,10,10*** do these one arm at a time.

I don't see any deads or weighted chins in here. -rack pulls would fit in nicely here done from knee height-shouldn't interfere with quads and allows more weight than deads, and imo chins are overrated.

Day 3: Quads/Calves
Leg Extensions 5x12,4,10,10,10
Squats / Front Squats 5x10,10,10,10,10
Angled Leg Press / Seated Leg Press 4x10,10,10,10
Adductor/ Abductor 4x20,20,20,20***please don't do this. It's bad enough when women do these. x2 jeffeson deadlifts are an excellent alternative and hit far more regions than "fanny presses"

Day 4: Shoulders
DB Shoulder Press / Military Press 5x12,4,10,10,10
Machine Shoulder press***no needx2 too much front delt work/unnecessary
Barbell Upright Row / Cable Upright Row 4x[10-12]***lousy on the rotator cuff with no net gain over better movements, done with dumbbells is actually very frienfly on rotators and can be done to hit all 3 heads and traps efficiently
DB shoulder fly 4x[12-15] ***fine for a pump at the end - this is the right place to place them.

Suggestions: hang clean/clean and press, push presses, Olympic bar corner presses, Arnold presses-would like to see some direct rear delt work such as bent over laterals or facepulls(some trap involvement)

Day 5: Tris/Hamstrings
Pulley Pushdowns 5x[10-12]***waste of time completely disagree here, can be a great mass builder and a safer alternative to close benches if a spotter is unavailable and done at the right angle and elbow position.
OH DB press 5x[10-12]***not bad
Lying EZ-curl triceps extensions 4x[10-12] ***try close grip bench press-why?
kickbacks 4x[10-12] ***See what I said about adductor/abductors, above. x2 I prefer a pressdown variation for this purpose
Lying Leg Curl 4x[15] ***pretty much useless.
Seated Leg Curl Machine 4x[15] ***different flavour of pretty much useless.-not sure why you dislike leg curls? a staple of many big ass bodybuilders routines, but i would still swap for romanians or lunges
For hams, try Romanian deadlifts and SHELC

Day 6: Bis
Seated Alt DB curls 5x[10-12] ***Do 'em standingx2
Standing cable curl 5x[10-12] *** why? You just did alternating dumbbell curls.-preacher would be better
Incline Curls 3x[10-12]*** why? You just did alternating dumbbell curls.
Machine Curl 4x[10-12]*** why? You just did alternating dumbbell curls.-an anti BB sentiment coming out here BUILT?? haha. I see this as all the same movement in terms of angles. reverse curls would be good here.

.

some background info about myself
5'7" 200lbs 22yo
working out since 12 February 2005. How do i know this exact date? Well, because i weighed in at about 255lbs after losing about 10-15lbs over the course of the summer of 04 through that winter. I went down to about 170lbs
with 4 day week lifting 6 day a week recumbent bike work, and completely restructuring my diet. that means lifting + bike would put me at like 2.5hrs in the gym. Realizing i may be overdoing it i backed off my cardio work and have been holding about 200lbs for a year or so. I do have a training partner who helped me do this and we still work out together every workout

so i am not new at this

At that time I did a push and pull split and the cardio

rule of thumb for bis is 2 one armed 2 two armed and alt seated and standing

i did do deadlifts, but didnt feel they were oh so beneficial for me

in reference to legs, what will help broaden quad sweep? to broaden quad sweep front squats or hack squats are your answer
i knew hams were shitty
are you suggesting i do legs twice a week?

whats with the no WG pulldowns, and i do the cable pulldowns one arm at a time

i am towards the heavy side for weighted chins and would need to work up to quality chins, a 45lb weighted chin would put my shoulders at injury risk [245lbs]

i do CG bench it varies with the other workouts
-pressdown is done first to warm up elbows training partner has elbow issues

thanks for the input built

Now obviously i am the devil's advocate here but I don't think there are too many issues with the routine, and If your recovery suffers you can always switch to a 5 day routine quite easily;
1. chest
2.back
3.rest
4.delts
5. arms
6.legs
7.rest

this should allow sufficient recovery.

Now i'm not being a dick here but i've seen a theme on this board for anti-volume favouring compounds over isolation and minimalism at all costs. Now again not causing offence but in terms of people I have seen commenting I have not seen more than a handful of people who I have thought seemed big or particulalry strong, yeah yeah genetics and all that nonsense but stll you can still do better. You may say your achieving your goals. But what if someone has a different goal how can the same training still be apt?

the people I have seen who are big ass and strong(these are my criteria for assesment) follow higher volume routines.

don't get me wrong I love this board and the people on it I just am yet to see any convincing arguements for the style of training you all applaud?

please don't hate me guys

 

[Built]

The people I've seen who are big and strong also eat a lot and take gear. Pump/volume works great on gear.

I do some isolation work, my friend. Just not a lot.

Decline smith close-grip press works very much like a dip, but with less RC stress. Great for tris.

Upright rows with dumbbells are still pretty useless compared with millies, push presses and corner press.

Leg curls - not much of an effect beyond pump. GHRs, GMs, and sprint intervals work wonders, though. SHELC is nice as a finisher if you want a curl.

 

[trapzilla]

The people I've seen who are big and strong also eat a lot and take gear. Pump/volume works great on gear.

I do some isolation work, my friend. Just not a lot.

Decline smith close-grip press works very much like a dip, but with less RC stress. Great for tris.

Upright rows with dumbbells are still pretty useless compared with millies, push presses and corner press.

Leg curls - not much of an effect beyond pump. GHRs, GMs, and sprint intervals work wonders, though. SHELC is nice as a finisher if you want a curl.

How are upright rows useless?? all the exercises you've listed whilst providing a greater amount of CNS stimulation and activation only primarily activate the anterior deltoid, the upright row especially done with a dumbbell can hit all 3 delt heads and the traps! there is no greater bang for your buck shoulder exercise.

agree on the volume/ pump gear statement, maybe the training is suggesting is correct for the vast majority of the population, I would just like to know why you suggest this style that is all.

 

[dteller1]

i'd have no luck going anywhere near that routine :S i dont do anywhere near that amount of sets, i definitely gain off shorter more intense workouts with each set taken near failure and i use clustering to get a bit more volume, but i only concentrate on nearly all compound exercises apart from a few sets each week directly training my arms but its probably not necessary. i question the intensity if you can do 18 sets with your biceps, after 2-3 really intense sets i couldnt keep going with a good weight i'd be continually dropping weight.

 

[trapzilla]

i'd have no luck going anywhere near that routine :S i dont do anywhere near that amount of sets, i definitely gain off shorter more intense workouts with each set taken near failure and i use clustering to get a bit more volume, but i only concentrate on nearly all compound exercises apart from a few sets each week directly training my arms but its probably not necessary. i question the intensity if you can do 18 sets with your biceps, after 2-3 really intense sets i couldnt keep going with a good weight i'd be continually dropping weight.

it might be a case of ramping-building up to one all out set as i do, so whilst there are 18 sets there may in fact be only 4 working sets.

 

[dteller1]

ah that makes more sense, i just do a few warm ups and then go with my 2-4 all out work sets, having 14 warm up sets seems like overkill but to each his own

 

[trapzilla]

I agree on this bodypart the number of sets is excessive for this person's situation

 

[Built]

How are upright rows useless?? all the exercises you've listed whilst providing a greater amount of CNS stimulation and activation only primarily activate the anterior deltoid, the upright row especially done with a dumbbell can hit all 3 delt heads and the traps! there is no greater bang for your buck shoulder exercise.

agree on the volume/ pump gear statement, maybe the training is suggesting is correct for the vast majority of the population, I would just like to know why you suggest this style that is all.

They are not at all optimal - and the potential for damage is great. They are awkward, and there is no way to go heavy enough on them to really stimulate a response. I wrote an article on shoulders - it says what I mean.

Got Built? » The Shoulders of Giants

Re stimulating all three heads - most movements that promise the moon only deliver a very small serving of said moon. Heavy rows work a charm on rear delts, and I do include laterals in my shoulder work.

 

[ihateschoolmt]

I think it is only fair to give an alternative view of things, don't worry i'm not going to preach my style of training but keep it more in line with his intended volume;

Now i'm not being a dick here but i've seen a theme on this board for anti-volume favouring compounds over isolation and minimalism at all costs. Now again not causing offence but in terms of people I have seen commenting I have not seen more than a handful of people who I have thought seemed big or particulalry strong, yeah yeah genetics and all that nonsense but stll you can still do better. You may say your achieving your goals. But what if someone has a different goal how can the same training still be apt?

True a lot of people on here favor low volume, it's good to have someone on here fighting for higher volume and isolation and all that stuff you like. I think people get a little closed minded about training. I believe there is quite a large discrepancy for making gains on different training styles. Of course most people are going to give advice based on the type of training they have gotten the best results from, which for you is high volume and for a number of people on this board was lower volume. It's good to have both view points so people can try some different stuff and decide what works for them. Just remember being bigger doesn't always mean knowing more.

 

[x~factor]

Day 5: Tris/Hamstrings
Pulley Pushdowns 5x[10-12]***waste of time

As always Built got some good advise... but I have to disagree with the Tricep pulldowns. I may not be the biggest guy in the gym by a long shot but one thing I have going for me is my tricep... and I owe it all to doing tricep pulldowns.

 

[mcveigh1]

thanks guys

enjoying the differing perspectives, looking to lock in the workout for the summer push and realign after the past few months with new job tight schedule trying to work it all out.

 

[Built]

As always Built got some good advise... but I have to disagree with the Tricep pulldowns. I may not be the biggest guy in the gym by a long shot but one thing I have going for me is my tricep... and I owe it all to doing tricep pulldowns.

Yanno, upon further reflection, I believe I misspoke myself there.

In the original post, the op had this for ham/tricep day:

Day 5: Tris/Hamstrings
Pulley Pushdowns 5x[10-12]
OH DB press 5x[10-12]
Lying EZ-curl triceps extensions 4x[10-12]
kickbacks 4x[10-12]
Lying Leg Curl 4x[15]
Seated Leg Curl Machine 4x[15]

Note the selection of exercises: pushdowns done first as five sets of 10-12 reps, THEN high-rep overhead press, followed by skullcrushers and then <shudder> kickbacks. I'm counting 180+ reps here, for triceps.

As a finisher, they're great. As a primary tricep builder, not so much and this entire workout was basically one long set of finishers. I personally like rope pulleys, but AFTER heavy tricep presses.

Sorry I wasn't clear about that. There's nothing inherently useless about the movement. It was their placement and the OP's other selected exercises to which I objected.