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Al Gore Wins the Nobel Peace Prize!

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Do we really need to go over the whole weapons inspector story for the 1 billionth time?

"War on Iraq" is a Republican military expert's analysis and rejection of the American government's current justification for invading Iraq. All Americans, especially politicians, should pay close attention to this book for two reasons. First, the arguments contained in this book were made by the person who knows the status of Iraq's weapons program and the potential threat posed by Iraq better than anyone else. Scott Ritter is a former intelligence officer and Marine veteran of the Gulf War. When the war ended, Ritter played a critical and highly effective role in inspecting and destroying the Iraqi weapons program. Second, Ritter is a Republican who voted for George W. Bush in the 2000 election, and who clearly harbors no liberal agenda. If this guy is telling us that the coming war with Iraq is unwarranted and extremely dangerous, we had better take him seriously. Ritter's arguments are summed up below.
IRAQ HAS NO SERIOUS WEAPONS CAPABLITY
Ritter demonstrates that Iraq's chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons were thoroughly dismantled. Rebuilding these programs is easily detectable, and if some chemical or biological agents evaded detection, they have probably exceeded their shelf life.

IRAQ DOES NOT HAVE A FUNDAMENTALIST GOVERNMENT
As evil and nasty as Saddam Hussein might be, he is a secular ruler who has gone to great and brutal lengths to repress religious fundamentalism in Iraq. He has no interest in perpetuating Islamic fundamentalism of the sort that Bin Laden espouses.

SADAM HUSSEIN AND BIN LADEN ARE ENEMIES
Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden are enemies. Saddam Hussein outlawed Wahabbism the fundamentalist sect of Islam to which Bin Laden belongs, and Bin Laden declared Saddam Hussein an apostate who should be killed. Even if these two were sympathetic to each other, Ritter proves that there isn't a shred of evidence of a cooperation between Iraq and Al Quaeda.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT BIN LADEN WANTS
An American invasion of Iraq has an excellent chance of infuriating other Islamic nations and creating a West vs. Islam polarization.

MORE TERRORISM PLEASE
Even if America has a speedy victory in Iraq (Ritter, a twelve year Marine veteran and former intelligence officer states that this is highly unlikely this time around), extremism and resentment against the U.S. will only increase in the Middle East. More likely, this war will generate tremendous civilian casualties in Iraq and hundreds or thousands of U.S. casualties. If, in a worse case scenario, America resorts to tactical nuclear weapons to help it's pinned down military forces-something Bush has publicly stated as a possibility. Ritter argues that if this happens he can guarantee that Iran and Pakistan will hand over nuclear devices to terrorists and we will experience a nuclear bomb detonation in America within decades.

DEMOCRACY IS IMPOSSIBLE IN IRAQ
Iraq contains a Shiite majority, which shares powerful fundamentalist beliefs with Iran, and which the U.S. definitely does not want to come to power. The U.S. can't put the Kurdish minority in power because Turkey, which has its own issues with the Kurds, would never allow it, which just leaves the Sunni minority from whose ranks Saddam rose to power. The only realistic result, according to Ritter, is another Sunni dictator who is as repressive as Saddam.

IRAQIS WON'T RISE UP AGAINST SADAM
Even if Iraqi civilians ignore the fact that the U.S. bombed, starved and killed many of them during the past ten years, the state apparatus that Saddam built has had more than twenty years to seep into their lives and is too well entrenched.

WHAT ABOUT SADDAM'S BOMB MAKER
Ritter quickly proves that Saddam's alleged bomb maker Khidre Hamza is a fake who never headed Iraq's nuclear program (Jafar al Jafar did) and who did not possess adequate knowledge to develop nuclear weapons. When Hamza first defected in 1994, his intelligence was rejected by the CIA and the intelligence community at large.

HITLER DID IT
Ritter correctly points out that while the justification for a first strike may resonate with many Americans still wounded by the memory of 9/11, it is the same excuse Hitler used for attacking Poland. The world may well see an American "first strike" in the same light.

HOW DO YOU SPELL "NEO-CONSERVATIVE"
According to Ritter, you spell it, "Rumsfeld", "Wolfowitz", and "Perle". Donald Rumsfeld, is of course the Bush Administration's Secretary of Defense, while Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle are part of a conservative think tank that is convinced that Iraq is a threat to both Israel and the United States and that is ideologically committed to toppling Saddam Hussein regardless of the potential consequences. These ideologues, according to Ritter, are the key decision makers with respect to Gulf War II, The Vengeance and they have effectively terminated all government debate on the subject. Ritter, who is also a Republican, astutely argues that extremism is the most dangerous way to approach an already volatile Middle East.

FACTS ARE A STUBBORN THING
Unlike any of his critics including the Richard Butler, the careerist who ineptly headed UNSCOM after the Gulf War, Ritter can and does document every argument he makes. Journalists have never found a single error in any of Ritter's claims and his critics are unwilling to debate him in public. Ritter's stance on this issue made him the subject of at least one intense FBI investigation in which he was cleared. Ritter sums up his approach with John Adams's famous statement that "facts are a stubborn thing."
 
Means nothing to us that don't believe the global warming BS. I am all for protecting the environment though and that is good.
Where ya been Decker? Someone was asking about scotch and I figure you could help!
 
And why start this thread only to crack on Bush?
 
70 thousand? Is that the number fox news is publishing these days? Wow I thought they called all the deaths insurgent deaths. A more acurate figure is closer to 1 million. Reaganite Greenspan even admitted the war is about oil and that the civilian death toll is around 1.2 million. He's one to argue with though...


So we are fighting the righteous fight... why didn't we bring democracy to sudan or more currently burma? They got oil or a strategic location for military bases? No.

actually it was a figure used by decker that i was responding to. if you did more than sumarilly glance over things you would have been able to understand that. im suprised it took you this long to respond to this post 3 pages ago. oh well now your here let the party of useless posts begin
 
On the Iraq War: I honestly wouldn't have a problem with spending the 300 billion on nuclear power plants and an infrustructure to transport hydrogen (which can be made from excess nuclear capacity) and switch to electric engines running on hydrogen. I think that might be a better long-term solution than engaging in wars while handcuffing our military.
 
"War on Iraq" is a Republican military expert's analysis and rejection of the American government's current justification for invading Iraq. All Americans, especially politicians, should pay close attention to this book for two reasons. First, the arguments contained in this book were made by the person who knows the status of Iraq's weapons program and the potential threat posed by Iraq better than anyone else. Scott Ritter is a former intelligence officer and Marine veteran of the Gulf War. When the war ended, Ritter played a critical and highly effective role in inspecting and destroying the Iraqi weapons program. Second, Ritter is a Republican who voted for George W. Bush in the 2000 election, and who clearly harbors no liberal agenda. If this guy is telling us that the coming war with Iraq is unwarranted and extremely dangerous, we had better take him seriously. Ritter's arguments are summed up below.
IRAQ HAS NO SERIOUS WEAPONS CAPABLITY
Ritter demonstrates that Iraq's chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons were thoroughly dismantled. Rebuilding these programs is easily detectable, and if some chemical or biological agents evaded detection, they have probably exceeded their shelf life.

IRAQ DOES NOT HAVE A FUNDAMENTALIST GOVERNMENT
As evil and nasty as Saddam Hussein might be, he is a secular ruler who has gone to great and brutal lengths to repress religious fundamentalism in Iraq. He has no interest in perpetuating Islamic fundamentalism of the sort that Bin Laden espouses.

SADAM HUSSEIN AND BIN LADEN ARE ENEMIES
Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden are enemies. Saddam Hussein outlawed Wahabbism the fundamentalist sect of Islam to which Bin Laden belongs, and Bin Laden declared Saddam Hussein an apostate who should be killed. Even if these two were sympathetic to each other, Ritter proves that there isn't a shred of evidence of a cooperation between Iraq and Al Quaeda.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT BIN LADEN WANTS
An American invasion of Iraq has an excellent chance of infuriating other Islamic nations and creating a West vs. Islam polarization.

MORE TERRORISM PLEASE
Even if America has a speedy victory in Iraq (Ritter, a twelve year Marine veteran and former intelligence officer states that this is highly unlikely this time around), extremism and resentment against the U.S. will only increase in the Middle East. More likely, this war will generate tremendous civilian casualties in Iraq and hundreds or thousands of U.S. casualties. If, in a worse case scenario, America resorts to tactical nuclear weapons to help it's pinned down military forces-something Bush has publicly stated as a possibility. Ritter argues that if this happens he can guarantee that Iran and Pakistan will hand over nuclear devices to terrorists and we will experience a nuclear bomb detonation in America within decades.

DEMOCRACY IS IMPOSSIBLE IN IRAQ
Iraq contains a Shiite majority, which shares powerful fundamentalist beliefs with Iran, and which the U.S. definitely does not want to come to power. The U.S. can't put the Kurdish minority in power because Turkey, which has its own issues with the Kurds, would never allow it, which just leaves the Sunni minority from whose ranks Saddam rose to power. The only realistic result, according to Ritter, is another Sunni dictator who is as repressive as Saddam.

IRAQIS WON'T RISE UP AGAINST SADAM
Even if Iraqi civilians ignore the fact that the U.S. bombed, starved and killed many of them during the past ten years, the state apparatus that Saddam built has had more than twenty years to seep into their lives and is too well entrenched.

WHAT ABOUT SADDAM'S BOMB MAKER
Ritter quickly proves that Saddam's alleged bomb maker Khidre Hamza is a fake who never headed Iraq's nuclear program (Jafar al Jafar did) and who did not possess adequate knowledge to develop nuclear weapons. When Hamza first defected in 1994, his intelligence was rejected by the CIA and the intelligence community at large.

HITLER DID IT
Ritter correctly points out that while the justification for a first strike may resonate with many Americans still wounded by the memory of 9/11, it is the same excuse Hitler used for attacking Poland. The world may well see an American "first strike" in the same light.

HOW DO YOU SPELL "NEO-CONSERVATIVE"
According to Ritter, you spell it, "Rumsfeld", "Wolfowitz", and "Perle". Donald Rumsfeld, is of course the Bush Administration's Secretary of Defense, while Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle are part of a conservative think tank that is convinced that Iraq is a threat to both Israel and the United States and that is ideologically committed to toppling Saddam Hussein regardless of the potential consequences. These ideologues, according to Ritter, are the key decision makers with respect to Gulf War II, The Vengeance and they have effectively terminated all government debate on the subject. Ritter, who is also a Republican, astutely argues that extremism is the most dangerous way to approach an already volatile Middle East.

FACTS ARE A STUBBORN THING
Unlike any of his critics including the Richard Butler, the careerist who ineptly headed UNSCOM after the Gulf War, Ritter can and does document every argument he makes. Journalists have never found a single error in any of Ritter's claims and his critics are unwilling to debate him in public. Ritter's stance on this issue made him the subject of at least one intense FBI investigation in which he was cleared. Ritter sums up his approach with John Adams's famous statement that "facts are a stubborn thing."

im sorry did you say something? what does this have to do with any of the topics discussed at the moment? sadam is dead and we are in iraq. fact. now what?

al gore is an idiot, and preaches one thing yet acts differently. fact.
 
People in the coal, oil, and natural gas business provide us with power for our factories and homes, fuel for cars, trucks, and planes. Our standard of living would PLUMMET without those evil "oilmen." Al Gore made a movie.

Perspective.

our "standard of living" is a fucking joke. an engagement ring should cost 3 months wages etc. if people were willing to acknowledge the laughable gulf in this country between want and need it might help. greed and gluttony are destroying the earth and his message is a good one even though the messenger is imperfect.
 
On the Iraq War: I honestly wouldn't have a problem with spending the 300 billion on nuclear power plants and an infrustructure to transport hydrogen (which can be made from excess nuclear capacity) and switch to electric engines running on hydrogen. I think that might be a better long-term solution than engaging in wars while handcuffing our military.
Really, are you going to start feeding your kids small doses of radio-active vitamins so that when we have a surplus of waste we can't get rid of their grandchildren can use it as a food source? Honestly, what would we do with all that leftover crap, shoot it to the moon, give it a nice neon glow? "Mommy did the moon always glow neon green?" We are much better off just harnessing natural occurrences of energy like wind, solar and hydro than building highly volatile facilities that may last 20-30 years and have the potential to ruin any populated area for miles around be it accidental or an act of well placed extremist aggression...
 
Really, are you going to start feeding your kids small doses of radio-active vitamins so that when we have a surplus of waste we can't get rid of their grandchildren can use it as a food source? Honestly, what would we do with all that leftover crap, shoot it to the moon, give it a nice neon glow? "Mommy did the moon always glow neon green?" We are much better off just harnessing natural occurrences of energy like wind, solar and hydro than building highly volatile facilities that may last 20-30 years and have the potential to ruin any populated area for miles around be it accidental or an act of well placed extremist aggression...

Drop it over the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
 
our "standard of living" is a fucking joke. an engagement ring should cost 3 months wages etc. if people were willing to acknowledge the laughable gulf in this country between want and need it might help. greed and gluttony are destroying the earth and his message is a good one even though the messenger is imperfect.

Go tell someone in a developing country how much of a joke it is. Tell them how our 'poor' have cable TV, air conditioning, and a car. See how many laughs you get.
 
Really, are you going to start feeding your kids small doses of radio-active vitamins so that when we have a surplus of waste we can't get rid of their grandchildren can use it as a food source? Honestly, what would we do with all that leftover crap, shoot it to the moon, give it a nice neon glow? "Mommy did the moon always glow neon green?" We are much better off just harnessing natural occurrences of energy like wind, solar and hydro than building highly volatile facilities that may last 20-30 years and have the potential to ruin any populated area for miles around be it accidental or an act of well placed extremist aggression...

wind, solar and hydro will never be able to produce the needed energy of this countries consumption. also nuclear plants last longer than 20-30 years especially the 3rd and 4th generation plants that should be built. the only plant ever to ruin populated areas from accident was in russia which lacked the proper safety features, funding, and training of employees. it cant happen here. i love the arguement of unsafe reactors due to extremist agression. its a falacy. educate yourself properly on nuclear power before you start bitching
 
Go tell someone in a developing country how much of a joke it is. Tell them how our 'poor' have cable TV, air conditioning, and a car. See how many laughs you get.

Do you want a hug buddy?
 
no they don't. the real poor in this country are starving.

I've been rock-bottom poor in the US. It's nothing like being poor in the rest of the world. Not even close.
 
no they don't. the real poor in this country are starving.

Some 38 million people in America are considered "food insecure" -- they have trouble finding the money to keep food on the table.


YouTube Video



The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:
  • Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
  • Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
  • Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
  • The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
  • Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
  • Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
  • Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
  • Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

From Heritage Foundation, data comes from US Census.
 
I've been rock-bottom poor in the US. It's nothing like being poor in the rest of the world. Not even close.

i'm not saying being poor here isn't easier but that it's a shame that kids go to bed hungry in a country with the wealth ours has. the failure to recognize the difference between want and need is reflected in the fact that you will see people at the food banks that do have two cars a dvd player etc cuz they think those are needs not wants. that's my point. we draw a line somewhere and define poor here differently than we would elsewhere but that doesn't mean there aren't people lined up at food banks because they have a true need, living in shelters and out of those cars that must mean they aren't poor.

it's a shame too that we draw a line in our hearts where most of the rest of the world just doesn't matter. who gives a fuck if kids somewhere else are dying as long as we have the car we want n the size diamond all the fancy ads tell us we should have. when i lived in vegas a kid there killed himself cuz his friends had planes n his parents wouldn't get him one. what a joke. you think he ever thought once about anyone but himself? if the guy next door cut his daughter's vagina off and sewed her closed imagine how horrified we'd feel. but who gives a fuck if it's happening half way around the world? n who gives a fuck what this world is like in 500 years. "we" won't be here n aren't "we" all that matters?


what would happen if we all took a hard look at the difference between what we have and what we need and used the surplus to help those in need? most of our population seems to be fat. we overeat enough to feed a small country no denying that.
 
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HITLER DID IT
Ritter correctly points out that while the justification for a first strike may resonate with many Americans still wounded by the memory of 9/11, it is the same excuse Hitler used for attacking Poland. The world may well see an American "first strike" in the same light.

This is a point rarely mentioned today.

Hitler used the attack on Russia (Operation Barbarossa) as a pre-emptive attack. German radio stations consistently broadcast to the German public that the USSR was building weaponry, and amassing tanks at its border along Eastern Europe. The Hitler Media (Goebels) constantly warned the public of the threat of "Bolshevist expansionism" into Eastern Europe, and of course the threat to Germany. The fact is, Staling couldn't have done this if he wanted to. He didn't have the resources, production (he was industrializing at the time) and Russia was recovering from the massive famines of the early 30s. This was part of the reason for the non-agression treaty Stalin signed with Germany. Russia was weak.

Operation Barbarossa was an act not an act of pre-emption - but the German public was consistently told that it was.
 
i'm not saying being poor here isn't easier but that it's a shame that kids go to bed hungry in a country with the wealth ours has.

You need to understand that if, in this country, you're starving, it's because you choose, even if it's through inaction, to be that way. You're correct, no one should starve in this country. And no one has too. There are countless organizations that will give a homeless person food, clothing, and a place to stay the night. Plus there are plenty of organizations that will try to help you get a job and get off the streets (try to find that in Mexico or South Africa!).

As a child, there were times when I didn't have food for a day or two. That wasn't because I couldn't get access to food or other assistance, it was because of my mother. She was far too proud to take a handout. She grew up rich and, as a poor person, refused to accept charity. She wouldn't even use food stamps. She insisted that we make it, or break it, on our own.

what would happen if we all took a hard look at the difference between what we have and what we need and used the surplus to help those in need? most of our population seems to be fat. we overeat enough to feed a small country no denying that.

No, there's no denying that obesity is a problem (though I think the media plays it up). However, like I said before, plenty of food (and other products and services) does go the poor. I hope you don't mean that we should give our food to other countries, do you?
 
Why is this such a shitfest? The guy is trying to do good things. Is intentions are probably not a 100% pure, but he is trying to do good things. You can't say that about many politicians, and I think it is admirable. Maybe everyone could try ot get away from the partisan bullshit long enough to give a round of applause to a man that is trying to do good things...or you can keep bashing him because he doesn't play for the team you root for.
 
Why is this such a shitfest? The guy is trying to do good things. Is intentions are probably not a 100% pure, but he is trying to do good things. You can't say that about many politicians, and I think it is admirable. Maybe everyone could try ot get away from the partisan bullshit long enough to give a round of applause to a man that is trying to do good things...or you can keep bashing him because he doesn't play for the team you root for.

the guy may be trying to do good things. im not entirely sold on that yet. the point is its hard to get behind a guy when his intentions are in questions. the guy seems fake to me. that very well could be my false perception, but its hard to shake that this guy is using global warming not for any altruistic beliefs but for personal benifit on the national and world stage. he comes off as an actor.
 
This is a point rarely mentioned today.

Hitler used the attack on Russia (Operation Barbarossa) as a pre-emptive attack. German radio stations consistently broadcast to the German public that the USSR was building weaponry, and amassing tanks at its border along Eastern Europe. The Hitler Media (Goebels) constantly warned the public of the threat of "Bolshevist expansionism" into Eastern Europe, and of course the threat to Germany. The fact is, Staling couldn't have done this if he wanted to. He didn't have the resources, production (he was industrializing at the time) and Russia was recovering from the massive famines of the early 30s. This was part of the reason for the non-agression treaty Stalin signed with Germany. Russia was weak.

Operation Barbarossa was an act not an act of pre-emption - but the German public was consistently told that it was.

didnt bolshevist expansionism eventually take over eastern europe? and id just like to say screw your picture of not supporting our troops.
 
This is a point rarely mentioned today.

Hitler used the attack on Russia (Operation Barbarossa) as a pre-emptive attack. German radio stations consistently broadcast to the German public that the USSR was building weaponry, and amassing tanks at its border along Eastern Europe. The Hitler Media (Goebels) constantly warned the public of the threat of "Bolshevist expansionism" into Eastern Europe, and of course the threat to Germany. The fact is, Staling couldn't have done this if he wanted to. He didn't have the resources, production (he was industrializing at the time) and Russia was recovering from the massive famines of the early 30s. This was part of the reason for the non-agression treaty Stalin signed with Germany. Russia was weak.

Operation Barbarossa was an act not an act of pre-emption - but the German public was consistently told that it was.

Mutually Assured Destruction worked against the Soviets, because they were atheists, and wanted to live. Our current enemies are members of a death cult, which glorify martyrdom and think they will be rewarded in paradise with 72 virgins if they die. MAD does not work, pre-emption is the only way. Don't bother saying "saddam wouldn't give them to terrorists" or "saddam said he didn't have any weapons" yadda yadda, because that's a chance that the American people were unwilling to take after 9/11.
 
Mutually Assured Destruction worked against the Soviets, because they were atheists, and wanted to live. Our current enemies are members of a death cult, which glorify martyrdom and think they will be rewarded in paradise with 72 virgins if they die. MAD does not work, pre-emption is the only way. Don't bother saying "saddam wouldn't give them to terrorists" or "saddam said he didn't have any weapons" yadda yadda, because that's a chance that the American people were unwilling to take after 9/11.

A solid piece of logic.
 
I'd just like to take this moment to say, "Go fuck yourself".

You should be so very fucking lucky that there are rules for mods that prevent me from banning you right now.

I'd just like to take this moment to say, "Go fuck yourself".

You should be so very fucking lucky that there are rules for mods that prevent me from banning you right now.

DOMS:

What did I say?

What did I do?

You are one of my favorite posters.

I do NOT understand what you are talking about.

As a mod you should have rules, but why do you say what you say?

Please respond in public and send me a PM.




Why?
 
didnt bolshevist expansionism eventually take over eastern europe?

No, it didn't.

It was STALINISM.

Because the Germans invaded the USSR.

If Hitler didn't invade, Stalin you never have gone west into Europe.

Napolean made the same mistake in 1812. Read your history books.

Napolean and Hitler were like two peas in a pod.


and id just like to say screw your picture of not supporting our troops.

You are welcome to have your opinion.

You support Al-hakim, I do not.
 
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