arnold press

[Phineas]

exactly....personally think this is another one of those exercises (such as leg lifts/frog kicks, etc. targeting the "lower" abs) where people use localized fatigue to judge the actual mechanics of the exercise..which is wrong

Agreed.

 

[jmesherghi]

is the principle of my routine good, i have read a few times it can be good to train up to 15 reps so i have included it, OR IS IT NOT NESSARY AND JUST SHOULD START OFF AT 12 REPS

i would just imagine that after heavy hard training 6_8 reps that my muscles would be completely shocked by this rep sceme, what do you think
(all over exerises that have no rep sceme next to it will be between 10_12

monday: chest
7 sets of bench press (starting off at 15, 12, 12, 10,10 8,6)
2 sets of incline dumbell press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of flies

tuesday: back, deads, bis
5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12 working down to 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls
2 standing hammer curls
2 preacher curls


wednesday: shoulders
5 sets of arnold seated shoulder presses (12,,10,10,8,6)
3 sets of lat raises
2 sets of front raises
2 bentover lat raises

thursday: legs

8 sets of squats(15,12,12,12,10,10,8,6)
3 sets of hamstring curls machine
1 sets of quad extensions

friday: tris + traps

7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 15, 12,,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extenions
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns

5 shrugs

 

[unclem]

on a personal note i like arnold presses. its good at 130lb db it hits them hard. but only if its strict u can feel the muscle work. i can anyway, but iam only speaking for wat it does for me. but i dont do them more than 8 weeks then i change to other movements. i do them seated as with all heavy movements. iam going to start to use standing military presses. if it dont fuck with my form or back.

 

[unclem]

is the principle of my routine good, i have read a few times it can be good to train up to 15 reps so i have included it, OR IS IT NOT NESSARY AND JUST SHOULD START OFF AT 12 REPS

i would just imagine that after heavy hard training 6_8 reps that my muscles would be completely shocked by this rep sceme, what do you think
(all over exerises that have no rep sceme next to it will be between 10_12

monday: chest
7 sets of bench press (starting off at 15, 12, 12, 10,10 8,6)
2 sets of incline dumbell press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of flies

tuesday: back, deads, bis
5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12 working down to 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls
2 standing hammer curls
2 preacher curls


wednesday: shoulders
5 sets of arnold seated shoulder presses (12,,10,10,8,6)
3 sets of lat raises
2 sets of front raises
2 bentover lat raises

thursday: legs

8 sets of squats(15,12,12,12,10,10,8,6)
3 sets of hamstring curls machine
1 sets of quad extensions

friday: tris + traps

7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 15, 12,,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extenions
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns

5 shrugs

brother u have to many sets for just one movement. break up the sets evenly. and i would do a 4 on 1 off 3 on 2 off and train some in am then eat , nap, eat, wait awhile 2 hrs then hit the gym again in the pm. thats wat i do if my work allows it. but power lifting i dont know, jugger, flathead, phineas, gazhole, few others are the ones to listen to. flathead competes in powerlifting competitions.

 

[jmesherghi]

i understand that everyone on here pretty much aggres thata re to manys ets etc but i feel my body responds weel to hard intensity as i have said i sued tot rain my chest twice a week and its my best feature,

BUT THE PRINCIPLE OF MY ROUTINE IS WHAT I REAALY NEED ADVICE ON, I MEAN AFTER TRAINING HARD FOR A WHILE AND STALLING IN PROGRESS DO YOU GUYS THINK THE REP SCEME I HAVE MADE UP WILL SHOCK MY MUCLES, OR IS THE 15H REP NOT NEEDED?

 

[unclem]

i would stay at 6-10, 12 max, but iam not smart.

 

[jmesherghi]

Okay cheers

 

[Phineas]

is the principle of my routine good, i have read a few times it can be good to train up to 15 reps so i have included it, OR IS IT NOT NESSARY AND JUST SHOULD START OFF AT 12 REPS

i would just imagine that after heavy hard training 6_8 reps that my muscles would be completely shocked by this rep sceme, what do you think
(all over exerises that have no rep sceme next to it will be between 10_12

monday: chest
7 sets of bench press (starting off at 15, 12, 12, 10,10 8,6)
2 sets of incline dumbell press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of flies

tuesday: back, deads, bis
5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12 working down to 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls
2 standing hammer curls
2 preacher curls


wednesday: shoulders
5 sets of arnold seated shoulder presses (12,,10,10,8,6)
3 sets of lat raises
2 sets of front raises
2 bentover lat raises

thursday: legs

8 sets of squats(15,12,12,12,10,10,8,6)
3 sets of hamstring curls machine
1 sets of quad extensions

friday: tris + traps

7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 15, 12,,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extenions
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns

5 shrugs

Simply increasing the reps isn't the answer to "shock" your muscles. You don't improve by just adding more and more volume to an already high-volume routine. Remember that as volume increases intensity has to decrease.

Some people do respond well to volume. You might be one of them. I just finished two microcycles of an extremely high-volume program. Just to give you an idea, mine had more combined exercises and sets than yours, except purely with compounds! It was torture. However, I wrote the program with very specific intensities to keep me from reaching failure on all but maybe the powerlifts at the beginning of each session. I got amazing results in two months, but after that my body started to catch up with the torture, so I scaled down to a hybrid high/low volume program. Still lots of sets, relatively speaking, but fewer lifts, one less day, and more recovery time. Because of this, the intensity can go up again. I didn't bother rewriting a complex program, as I'm beginning a new one in a month, but in the mean time this sudden shift of volume/intensity will be plenty of "shock".

You need to address more than just the number of sets and reps. To most people saying 10 sets of 5 would seem very intense, as they would assume failure at rep 5 or 6 (that's the common approach to reps for most guys in the gym...to train to failure or near failure on all sets). However, what if I said 10 sets of 5 at an 8 rep max? What about 10 sets of 5 at a 10 rep max? The intensity changes considerably. From the first assumption of the failure set to the 10 RM sets the intensity changed from submaximal loads to more along the lines of active recovery. This is one of many training variables.

One way for you to "shock" your muscles will be to ditch all that isolation, and reserve all your body's resources for the more productive, physically demanding compound lifts. Try some submaximal lifting. Muscle gains don't just come from a certain rep range. The whole follow this rep range and that rep range is kind of oversimplified. What is certain is that training at submaximal loads improves your neural efficiency -- that is you train your body to recruit a greater number of motor units in a movement, thus making your muscles more efficient. More efficient muscles are stronger/more powerful muscles. Stronger muscles lift more weight in a shorter time. More weight in a shorter time means more stimulus with more recovery time. More recovery time means more growth and opportunity to replenish muscle gylcogen. Larger, stronger, fresher muscles with more glycogen means more productive workouts. It's an endless cycle of productivity, if you play your cards right.

(1.) Ditch the isolation.

(2.) Balance your upper body pulling with pushing. Currently, there is too much chest and shoulder work. You want the two to be 50/50, or else (a) risk rotator cuff injury down the road, which will prevent you from doing chest/shoulder work and (b) look ridiculous and get laughed at by anyone seriously using a squat rack.

(3.) Include more leg work. Of all those exercises only 4 are lower body (deadlifts are a leg lift) -- two of which are isolation (even them, you have far fewer sets relative to upper isolation). Bring in more lower body compounds, with equal number for pushing and pulling. Use a unilateral lift for each, as well (split squats for pushing? unilateral romanian deads for pulling?).

(4.) Drop the volume. Too much volume, and no rationale for the rep ranges besides that they're common. Reserve certain lifts for certain intensities. Not all lifts necessarily need to be trained at the same rep range. The basic compounds like squats, deads, rows, etc, typically yield better results at submaximal loads, as they're more geared towards full-body development and neural efficiency. Then, include supplementary lifts like squat, dead, row, bench, etc, variations at higher rep ranges with different intensities, tempos, etc, and order of exercises according to what works for you. Don't do three chest-dominant lifts back to back. If you do an upper push/pull day maybe do heavy bench then follow it with heavy bent over rows. You allow the pushing muscles to actively recover due to localized blood flow, you can maintain better lifting intensity by switching and not training the freshly fatigued pushing muscles, and you'd be training in the horizontal plane (same as bench press) which will augment your bench performance (improving your rows improves your bench performance).

(5.) Adopt a periodization scheme. Rather than performing the same sets, reps, etc every session, set concrete goals and write an entire program that progresses in some way to achieve that goal. You can compose microcycles where you train at different intensities, add/remove certain lifts and adjust the volume accordingly, you can incorporate other training styles for a few weeks at a time like plyometrics, GPP, olympic weight lifting, etc. If you assess your weakpoints preventing you from reaching your goal then you can customize your program to gradually address those weak points on a number of fronts.

(6.) Eat big but eat clean and smart. It's true that when bulking you need to take in a lot of calories to provide your body with those extra resources necessary to create new, metabolically-expensive tissue (which it doesn't want, remember..this is the challenge of muscle development). However, this isn't an excuse to scarf down greasy burgers and take-out. When it comes to bodybuilding, strength training, powerlifting, whatever, you really are what you eat. The better you serve your body the better it will serve you.

Track your diet on fitday.com, and post it here for review. Everyone says their diet is great, but they don't understand how wrong they can be. There's so much more to it than protein shakes and canned tuna. In fact, most guys claiming to have a hold on diet have only addressed high-protein, and almost always are over-relying on supplements, and just flat out consuming way more than they need.

As important as training may be, diet is the determining factor in whether or not you'll be successful.

 

[nova1970sb]

i would chang squats and deads to a heavy 5x5, that was where i saw the most gain. and go heavy. and 7 sets of bench press, are you serious man? i would go 3 sets flat, 3 sets incline, and ditch the decline.

 

[jmesherghi]

i am going to get rid of my front raises and add another 2 sets of shoulder presses
thats personally one exersise (decline) i do like, i have trained for a period without it and period with it a very long period and i honestly think it helped develop my lower chest,

i also used to train my chest twice a week for MORE sets alot more sets and hard, and its my best feature, it was the only muscle i trained twice a week and well it grew very well,

i do think that we can train our muscles more then what most people think as i have said before i no many people that hit there chest tris and bis all for 12 sets and are hugeeeeeee, i no people that hit there chest i was one of them, and tris twice a week for 12 sets each! and well they are big, i no people that go tot he gym 6 times a week and he is big trains muscles groups twice a week and agaain he is big

if i can train my chest twice a week for more sets and harder then the routine above with constant sets to failure and have my chest grow like a weed, well i do not think that the routine is overtraining, i have researched and studied perodisation and performed a 24 week cycle, (endurance phase), (muscular endurance) (hypertrophy), (strength/power) and gues what it worked during hypertophy i got fuking massive all down to the previous endurance and muscular endurance pahses which built me up for hypertrophy, during my hypertrophy phase all large muscle groups where 12 sets, bis and tris where only 5 sets but where after chest and back
but i want to train my tris once a week hard as they are lagging so thats why i have put them in a seperate day

isnt a 5x5 routine more for strenght rather then size considereing its not in hypertrohy range but rather strenght range?


(all other exercises with no listed reps will be between 12 and 10)
monday: chest
6 sets of bench press (starting off at , 12, 12, 10,10 8,6,6)
2 sets of incline dumbbell press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of flies

tuesday: back, deads, bis
5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12 working down to 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls
2 standing hammer curls
2 preacher curls


wednesday: shoulders
7 sets of standing shoulder presses (12,,10,10, 10,8,6, 6)
3 sets of lat raises
2 bentover lat raises

thursday: legs

8 sets of squats(12,12,10,10,10,8,6,6)
3 sets of hamstring curls machine
1 sets of quad extensions

friday: tris + traps

7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 12, 12,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extensions
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns
5 shrugs

 

[Phineas]

i am going to get rid of my front raises and add another 2 sets of shoulder presses
thats personally one exersise (decline) i do like, i have trained for a period without it and period with it a very long period and i honestly think it helped develop my lower chest,

i also used to train my chest twice a week for MORE sets alot more sets and hard, and its my best feature, it was the only muscle i trained twice a week and well it grew very well,

i do think that we can train our muscles more then what most people think as i have said before i no many people that hit there chest tris and bis all for 12 sets and are hugeeeeeee, i no people that hit there chest i was one of them, and tris twice a week for 12 sets each! and well they are big, i no people that go tot he gym 6 times a week and he is big trains muscles groups twice a week and agaain he is big

if i can train my chest twice a week for more sets and harder then the routine above with constant sets to failure and have my chest grow like a weed, well i do not think that the routine is overtraining, i have researched and studied perodisation and performed a 24 week cycle, (endurance phase), (muscular endurance) (hypertrophy), (strength/power) and gues what it worked during hypertophy i got fuking massive all down to the previous endurance and muscular endurance pahses which built me up for hypertrophy, during my hypertrophy phase all large muscle groups where 12 sets, bis and tris where only 5 sets but where after chest and back
but i want to train my tris once a week hard as they are lagging so thats why i have put them in a seperate day

isnt a 5x5 routine more for strenght rather then size considereing its not in hypertrohy range but rather strenght range?


(all other exercises with no listed reps will be between 12 and 10)
monday: chest
6 sets of bench press (starting off at , 12, 12, 10,10 8,6,6)
2 sets of incline dumbbell press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of flies

tuesday: back, deads, bis
5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12 working down to 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls
2 standing hammer curls
2 preacher curls


wednesday: shoulders
7 sets of standing shoulder presses (12,,10,10, 10,8,6, 6)
3 sets of lat raises
2 bentover lat raises

thursday: legs

8 sets of squats(12,12,10,10,10,8,6,6)
3 sets of hamstring curls machine
1 sets of quad extensions

friday: tris + traps

7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 12, 12,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extensions
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns
5 shrugs

You can train muscle groups several times in a week. In fact, I think training full-body 3 days a week is ideal. However, it's the volume that we're talking about.

Just because you had growth in an area doesn't mean the process was the most efficient or safest. You could have had better results with a lower volume approach. We're just saying what's the safest, most efficient way to see results. You can blast the hell out of your muscles constantly and see results, or you can do less but in a more organized, progressive manner and see just as good if not better results. I enjoy being in the gym as much as any bro-school advocate, but I'd rather see the results at the least cost to my body and schedule. I already spend several hours a week preparing, weighing, and portioning food -- not to mention researching -- I would like to keep the training as efficient as possible.

Also, if you train certain muscle groups at the expense of others then those muscle groups receiving the extra attention WILL grow well beyond the other muscle groups. Ever hear of Greg Valentino? He obsessively trained his arms to the point that they were inhuman, disgusting proportions. Ever seen his legs or back, though? Different story.

At the moment you have very little leg work, and not much back work relative to the rest. You have an overwhelming amount of chest, shoulder, and arm work (the male model triangle, as I like to call it). Even if by common training knowledge you're overtraining those muscle groups they at least have extra resources for repair because the other muscle groups are undertrained, and thus aren't demanding the same amount of calories and nutrients.

5 x 5 is intended for strength/power/neural efficiency. Muscle mass doesn't necessarily come from any rep range. Muscle mass comes from diet. Besides, with even a decent diet 5 x 5 will give amazing mass. Look at the common powerlifter versus a high-rep gym go'er. High reps will develop muscular endurance, not necessarily large muscles. Bodybuilders tend to stick to higher reps, but (a) they gain their mass through very careful diet/supplements and (b) the IFBB freakshow pros are all juiced. Gears change the physics of muscle building.

We've given plenty of advice to you. Between this thread and PMs I especially have invested a lot of time in you, hoping I could help you clean up your program, but you seem unconvinceable. If you're so keen on what you're doing that you just reject any advice from those arguing with science and logic versus claimed results based on false logic then why are you here asking for advice?

We just want to help those looking for help. If you're not really open to help, then please don't waste our time asking for it.

 

[jmesherghi]

fair enough i do appreciate the help, and i have taken pointers from you guys, i have ditched pretty much all islolation work which i was wrong in doing and yes your logic was write in the sene of compound moves and i will also take on the 5x5 approach for my deads and squats so your time has not been completely wasted you have converted me with some important aspects

other then the 5x5 approach for my squats what else can i do in my leg day i do like the hamsting curl tho i really do feel it the next couple of day and i like to use the quad extension just to finish off so to speak the quads
so that would be 5 sets of squats
3 sets of curls and il do 3 sets of leg extenions
anything else to add for the leg day? i was thinking of romain deadlifts but i would think doing deads on my back day and then ro deads wud be overkill

my diet is one thing that is in order i believe and rest outside of the gym all i do on monday to fridays is go to the gym, supplement with shakes, creatin and alminos, eat, eat some more and sit on my hairy ass all day at the computer or my bed lol so i think this is another reason why i think i can recover well from my routine whereas you probaly go to work so your intensity probaly needs to be lower...

but still you are convincing me about overtraining ..... its just i see loads and loads of people train tris chest bis twice a week for 12 sets espcially tris and no of people going everyay for 6 months and getting massive, iv read lots of articles online and magazines ect saying large muscle groups like chest and legs can be trained up to 12 sets and even more.... my gym instrcutre helped me plan my hypertrophy work and he considers shoulders a large muscle group in a way and set to hit them hard once a week for 12 sets

i no triceps get worked during chest and shoulder presses but not directly, they arnt the main muscle group used write? so wnt a day between chest, and a day between shoulder be enough rest to target the tricep muscles directly, as during the pressing move ie bench and shoulder press they are a secondary muscle group used?

 

[Phineas]

fair enough i do appreciate the help, and i have taken pointers from you guys, i have ditched pretty much all islolation work which i was wrong in doing and yes your logic was write in the sene of compound moves and i will also take on the 5x5 approach for my deads and squats so your time has not been completely wasted you have converted me with some important aspects

other then the 5x5 approach for my squats what else can i do in my leg day i do like the hamsting curl tho i really do feel it the next couple of day and i like to use the quad extension just to finish off so to speak the quads
so that would be 5 sets of squats
3 sets of curls and il do 3 sets of leg extenions
anything else to add for the leg day? i was thinking of romain deadlifts but i would think doing deads on my back day and then ro deads wud be overkill

my diet is one thing that is in order i believe and rest outside of the gym all i do on monday to fridays is go to the gym, supplement with shakes, creatin and alminos, eat, eat some more and sit on my hairy ass all day at the computer or my bed lol so i think this is another reason why i think i can recover well from my routine whereas you probaly go to work so your intensity probaly needs to be lower...

but still you are convincing me about overtraining ..... its just i see loads and loads of people train tris chest bis twice a week for 12 sets espcially tris and no of people going everyay for 6 months and getting massive, iv read lots of articles online and magazines ect saying large muscle groups like chest and legs can be trained up to 12 sets and even more.... my gym instrcutre helped me plan my hypertrophy work and he considers shoulders a large muscle group in a way and set to hit them hard once a week for 12 sets

i no triceps get worked during chest and shoulder presses but not directly, they arnt the main muscle group used write? so wnt a day between chest, and a day between shoulder be enough rest to target the tricep muscles directly, as during the pressing move ie bench and shoulder press they are a secondary muscle group used?

Why do you think having two deadlift variations -- which train the whole body indirectly and the largest muscle groups directly -- in one week is overkill but training smaller muscle groups more often isn't?

 

[jmesherghi]

oh because deadlifts train hams directly dnt they, isnt it one of the main uscle gruops that get hit by them,

can i ask something else then if i still wanted to train tris heavy by themsevles on a friday can i train that chest routine on a monday morning and then the shoulder routine in the late afternoon, train my back and bis routine on tuesday and then have that brake on wednesday so i directly get 3 days before i hit the tris again or wud that be completely overkill

 

[roastchicken]

This guy does not want any genuine help and is clearly not reading any of the posts.

Another cunt who wants validation of his own piss poor routine ,LET HIM BE SMALL!!!

 

[jmesherghi]

okay guys okay, i have been thinking about it and your convincing me your makeing me think, you my very well have to be working hard on me but your convincing me, how about on a chest day i perform the same chest routine, however i also will train my shoulders, 4 sets of shoulder presses 2 sets of lateral raises and 2 bentover raises, should i then do my back day tuesday and then take wednesday off?

also will this help my validation of training triceps with my routine on friday as i now have 3 full days to recover from the pushing of the chest and shoulder preses?

 

[nova1970sb]

still think your planning on doing way way way too much work bud, there is such thing as over training

 

[jmesherghi]

final routine _

(all other exercises with no listed reps will be between 12 and 10)

monday: tris + traps
7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 12, 12,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extensions
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns
5 shrugs

tuesday: legs

8 sets of squats(12,12,10,10,10,8,6,6)
3 sets of hamstring curls machine
1 sets of quad extensions


wednesday: (rest)


thursday: back, deads, bis

5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12,10,10,8, 6, 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls
2 standing hammer curls
2 preacher curls


friday: chest and shoulders

6 sets of bench press (starting off at , 12, 12, 10,10 8,6,6)
2 sets of incline dumbbell press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of flies

4 sets of standing shoulder press (12,10,8,6)
2 sets of lat raises
2 sets of bentover lat raises

I do want to thank you all for your help i no it has been hard.... but i have taken alot of your points like geting rid of most of my isolations and i have now decided to take a brake off on wednesday

i now have 3 full days to recover before my triceps are stimulated through their secondary involvement in the pushing exersises of chest and shoulders which will give me a suffient rest i feel

but thanks for the advice, i am going to try this routine for amonth if i make now progress il be going back here begging for help, its its a success i will caryy on for 6 to 8 weeks and stay intouch witht his forum for advice

thankyou

 

[MyK]

"ok ok guys, so I am going to totally disregard and ignore all of the well thought out clearly explained and priceless advice that you have given me. Instead can you please just say that you think that the routine that I want to do will work because I saw a guy with huge triceps one time do alot of isolation volume. thanks"

 

[Built]

Do calves on Monday and Friday. Toss 'em in between sets.
Learn how to do cleans - and do 'em first on Monday. (good for traps)

 

[jmesherghi]

okay the only muscle group where i can see it might be overtained is the triceps, however i do not want to train them on either a chest day or shoulder day

i will get rid of the overhead extensions, but i do want to keep the reverse grip beacuse it will aloow me to self spot and push through a few extra reps

how many sets would you guys do if you trained triceps once a week by themselves would 10 sets be reasonabal?
also if you trained biceps by themselves how many sets would you do,


also do you think the amount of sets and exersises i had planned for shoulder training on chest is good enough to stimulate good growth?

 

[Phineas]

okay the only muscle group where i can see it might be overtained is the triceps, however i do not want to train them on either a chest day or shoulder day

i will get rid of the overhead extensions, but i do want to keep the reverse grip beacuse it will aloow me to self spot and push through a few extra reps

how many sets would you guys do if you trained triceps once a week by themselves would 10 sets be reasonabal?
also if you trained biceps by themselves how many sets would you do,


also do you think the amount of sets and exersises i had planned for shoulder training on chest is good enough to stimulate good growth?

How many isolation sets would depend on how many compound sets you were doing. If you train a decent amount of compound sets, and want to keep isolating let's say your biceps and triceps then I'd say maybe 3-5 sets per muscle groups would be fine. 10 is quite a bit, but again it depends on the intensity of those sets. As long as they're augmenting training and not impeding on your performance on your compounds -- and you're making progress -- then go ahead.

Also, note that you get shoulder training with upper pulling. Most people don't realize that; they think of "shoulder work" as shoulder presses, front raises, lateral raises, etc. However, the posterior deltoids are part of your shoulders, and they're a pulling muscle group. So, for full shoulder development make sure you're doing rows and pullups (which you have).

Incidentally, deadlifts, cleans, and other exercises where you have to support heavy loads with your arms will result in extra posterior deltoid development, as the muscle group not only assists in pulling but also stabilizing the scapula when holding objects (basically prevents your shoulders from tearing forward when bearing heavy loads).

 

[MyK]

okay the only muscle group where i can see it might be overtained is the triceps, however i do not want to train them on either a chest day or shoulder day

i will get rid of the overhead extensions, but i do want to keep the reverse grip beacuse it will aloow me to self spot and push through a few extra reps

how many sets would you guys do if you trained triceps once a week by themselves would 10 sets be reasonabal?
also if you trained biceps by themselves how many sets would you do,


also do you think the amount of sets and exersises i had planned for shoulder training on chest is good enough to stimulate good growth?

 

[jmesherghi]

basicly i hate training triceps after a chest or shoulder day simply because my form really suffers, i can perfrom bicep on a back day fine but not triceps after a chest or shoulder day, lots of people prefer to train triceps with back etc

phineas_ i always do compound exersises before isolation as you already know compounds are the bread and butter of routines,


7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 12, 12,10,10, 10,8,6,)
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns


this is my tricep routine, i got rid of the overhead extensions , erm i was planning to take the narrow grip sets to failure or at least near it
and for my one arm reverse grips i was going to self spot on the last 2 sets to force a few extra reps out so thats my intensions for the intensins for the intensity of my tricep training

but then i have a whole 3 days off before any direct work is done with shoulder and chest

speaking of shoulder and chest

chest and shoulders

6 sets of bench press (starting off at , 12, 12, 10,10 8,6,6)
2 sets of incline dumbbell press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of flies

4 sets of standing shoulder press (12,10,8,6)
2 sets of lat raises
2 sets of bentover lat raises


i would ideally like to add another 2 shoulder press sets taking it in total to 10 sets for shoulders but im guessing thats a no no right

 

[Phineas]

basicly i hate training triceps after a chest or shoulder day simply because my form really suffers, i can perfrom bicep on a back day fine but not triceps after a chest or shoulder day, lots of people prefer to train triceps with back etc

phineas_ i always do compound exersises before isolation as you already know compounds are the bread and butter of routines,


7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 12, 12,10,10, 10,8,6,)
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns

It still is a fair bit of volume for isolation. Unless it works for you and isn't interfering with your compounds then keep it. Looking at it, though, I would suggest at least dropping the 7 sets to 3

this is my tricep routine, i got rid of the overhead extensions , erm i was planning to take the narrow grip sets to failure or at least near it
and for my one arm reverse grips i was going to self spot on the last 2 sets to force a few extra reps out so thats my intensions for the intensins for the intensity of my tricep training

but then i have a whole 3 days off before any direct work is done with shoulder and chest

speaking of shoulder and chest

chest and shoulders

6 sets of bench press (starting off at , 12, 12, 10,10 8,6,6)
2 sets of incline dumbbell press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of flies

No one has asked yet, but are all 6 sets of your bench working sets? Or, are you including in the 6 warmup sets? If those are all working sets then that's quite a bit of volume, unless you're not training to near failure. When you do 12 rep sets, do you try to hit failure, or near failure, or do you perform the reps at a weight that you can finish no problem? What intensity you're lifting at is what will determine whether or not this is too much volume. Just saying "x" number of sets and reps doesn't really tell us if it's overkill.

4 sets of standing shoulder press (12,10,8,6)
2 sets of lat raises
2 sets of bentover lat raises

I think 4 sets of military press is fine, though it depends on how much of the chest-dominant work you keep. With 6 sets of bench at that many reps and then the incline, decline, and flies you're frying the muscle groups involved in those lifts.

You might get better use of your pushing muscles if you lower the compound volume to submaximal lifting sets like 3x5 or 5x5 and then maybe some low-volume, high-rep isolation sets. Note that secondary muscles tend to be slow-twitch, which is why high-rep sets work well for them. However, larger muscle groups tend to be comprised of fast-twitch fibres; they're more inclined to pushing heavier loads in a shorter period of time. A good upper push session might look like this (though, this is just a quick thought):

(With the submaximal sets, progress the intensity, to culminate with a max 5-rep attempt. If your 5-rep max is 250, your sets could look like this: 1x5 @ 165; 1 x 5 @ 185; 1 x 5 @ 215; 1 x 5 @ 235; 1 x 5 @ 255)

Bench Press: 5 x 5 @ 5-9 RM
Military Press: 5 x 5 @ 5-9 RM
(*optional) Bar Dips: 3 x 8 @ 11-12 RM
Lateral Raises: 2 x 15 @ 18-20RM
Overhead Tricep Cable Extensions: 2 x 15 @ 18-20RM

i would ideally like to add another 2 shoulder press sets taking it in total to 10 sets for shoulders but im guessing thats a no no right

See comments.

 

[jmesherghi]

no the bench press sets do not include warm ups and all the sets on my bench i was looking to go near to failure at least, i was looking to go to absolute failure on the last to reps of 6

so then just 6 sets for triceps? i see and have reserached that a lot of pople will nomrally do 5 or 6 sets after training chest, however i will be training triceps by themselves so theres no previous stimulation of the tricep areas so i though that 10 sets would be a good bet?

also i have been looking to incorporate higher rep scemes, what benefits will doing lat raises have at say the 15 rep mark rather then the 10 to 12 rep mark?

 

[LAM]

what benefits will doing lat raises have at say the 15 rep mark rather then the 10 to 12 rep mark?

varying the rep range allows one to more effectively fatigue the various muscle fiber types from type 1 to type 2a and b.

I use a rep scheme from about 6-50 reps and vary my training loads from 50% to 85% of the 1RM (for compounds).

 

[MDR]

I get a lot of tricep work on chest days, so if I was inclined to do tricep isolation work, it would make sense to do a bit after the major chest lifts, when the muscle is already fatigued. Same thing for back and biceps, because my biceps get worked considerably during my back work. Probably something you have already considered, but I like training the smaller body parts for a few sets after the major compound movements are finished, if at all.

 

[jmesherghi]

sory lam im not good with knowlege with different muscle fibers altough i understand what they are i dnt nessarily know what the end result would mean? how would converting it into the different type of muscle fiber help acheive mass? sory for asking so many questions it just interestes me and knowlege is power

 

[jmesherghi]

I wish i could do that with my tris MDR would make things alot simpler its just my form is so poor after all the heavy pressing movements form benching etc because my tris feel fatigued, i just cnt put in the right effort and from so my tris suffer thats why i have to feel its essential for me to train tris by themsevles