Creation vs. Evolution

[busyLivin]

I like coffee with sweet toasts.

That was deep, V.

 

[BoneCrusher]

V is known for his depth Busy ...

 

[MaxMirkin]

V is known for his depth Busy ...

....and his total disregard for the evils of common sense.

 

[Vieope]

It killed this thread, didn´t it? Then it worked just fine.

 

[milliman]

rofl.

Yeah, i can totally see how 10,000 years of selective breeding in domesticated animals - i.e. accelerated evolution -
Uh no ! Selective breeding for desireable traits does not produce evolution. A horse still has horse babies. The horse does not evolve into another animal.

Uh... this "example" is so logically retarded i cant believe youre trying to use it. If i saw BUSH SUCKS spelled out in pine needles, id recognize it as a human act - not because i have some bizarre epiphany and realize that only someone of incredible intelligence could have crafted such a witty remark - but because the english language was created by man - and it has no meaning for ANYTHING ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE.

You think the world is so perfectly created that it couldnt possibly be the work of anything other than an intelligent being, right? +
The point has escaped you dude. DNA is responsible for the genetic blue print to build your body. It took intelligence to write the genetic code to make it work.

Well imagine this: you view this planet as perfect because you evolved to thrive in its ecosystem. Obviously humanity wouldnt wake up one day and find itself living at the bottom of the ocean, and say to themselves, "well damn, this obviously isnt the work of intelligence... that guy would have known we breathe AIR and not WATER!!" Your opinion of the earths perfection is a result of your adaptation to its environment. Just like fish adapted to water, and birds adapted to sky.

What if i said to you that a 2,000 degree sulfur vent in a trench 5 miles deep out in the pacific was the most perfectly crafted "world" in existence? You'd probably think that was a bit of a hasty assumption, no? Well, perhaps it wouldnt be very comfy for you, but for the organisms that thrive within that hellish pit, every other place on earth looks like some inhospitable wasteland. To those organisms, the planet is the universe. To them, their home is the only place that seems perfectly created to make them prosper. For humans, the earth is that vent. The galaxy is the rest of the world. We view our home as perfect because we cant contemplate living anywhere else. That is by no means an excuse to draw the conclusion that it must have been perfectly created for our service. As with the organisms in the 2,000 degree vent, we're biased towards what we understand. Ignoring that bias (as you are) isnt simply a matter of faith, its ignorant.

How did the first organism get there ? Imagine yourself looking at earth when it was first formed. A blob of stuff. Lets assume that a lightening bolt started the first life form. How did it survive ?
What would it eat ? How would it reproduce ?

Ok, so in the past 2000 years, what has the christian god done? Let's see... he's caused at least 9 major wars by my count, resulting in the toppling of empires and the deaths of millions of people. Uh, i guess thats a "point" for god.

Lets look at science over the past 2000 years. What has it done for us? Well, it put a roof over our heads. It gave us agriculture. It gave us domesticated animals. It gave us the steam engine, the industrial revolution, the airplane, the space shuttle, and the computer. Its made war a shorter and less bloody affair. How many points should we give science for that?

Add up the two sides... and im thinking science has the better "intelligent design." Or at the very least, if given the choice between two guiding principles, i'd hope that most people would go with science. It's done more for us than any of the worlds endlessly morphing religions have.

I guess this proves you hate religion.
We were not talking about religion, we were talking about creation versus evolution.

Answers embedded in bold.

 

[Vieope]

I knew somebody would try to prove me wrong.

 

[maniclion]

Who created this God, Yhwh, Allah everyone speaks so highly of? Who does he pray to?

 

[milliman]

Which version of the bible do we follow when we look at the creation of the world from a creationists perspective. Indesd which religions cover the creation of the world in anything close to detail? I am not being sarcastic ... I am looking for more information on the views of creationist.

Pick any, they are all the same. The only differences are the words used. Old English versus current English. Written to 8th grade level or 12th grade level.

King James, NIV, NASB, New KJ, living bible

Creation is only the book of Genesis.

 

[Crono1000]

anyone who doesn't believe in evolution should see how this thread evolved. It's ancestors were threads like it and natural selection of the posters who end up posting in these threads have stopped taking it to a literal or serious manner (and know better than to do it) and now they have evolved in funny, pointless, play threads

by the way, I am a christian that believes in evolution, and a variable that we as humans are either not capable of understanding or have not come up with yet, maybe the subject of time, matter, something we have no foundation on at all, etc. Branches of psychology/science believe that everything is derived from some other thing, so I feel either that some other thing isn't made available to us (as a creation of God) or we have not made the connection between Point A to Point B (as a creation of evolution)

 

[Crono1000]

Plus I feel that the Bible has been overtranslated that all there is to say is by now it has been mistranslated, so to find loopholes in Creationsim when referring to the application of evolution is pointless

 

[BoneCrusher]

So then the bible that the Mormons use is the same as the one the Amish use? I doubt that Milliman. I know that in a crunch two people of unlike secular beliefs would stand side by side in this debate ... but as a non religious person I see a great chasm that needs filled.

 

[Vieope]

by the way, I am a christian that believes in evolution

Oh, I love the suspicious and rational christian.

 

[Vieope]

I wish Manic have said that, you would look at him and say: "Come on bite me!"

 

[maniclion]

Who created this God, Yhwh, Allah everyone speaks so highly of? Who does he pray to?

The reason I ask is because Creationist can't fathom how we could just be without some divine manipulation of the forces that brought us into the state we are in, yet they don't question who created the God that created them. How can they beleive that God just is and wasn't created and not be able to think maybe the Universe just is? If God was created who created his creator, ad infinitum?

 

[Crono1000]

I simply don't see why someone would say that there isn't room in the Bible for evolution?

I mean, no one was there. I don't look for answers but if you need answers then you could go so far as make up some pretty rational conclusions.

For one, God created the Earth- no Christian will deny that. Ok, so if God can do that, and make a human out of dirt, and a woman out of a rib, then why can't he control time right? I would imagine if God is before all creation, so God has always been around, therefore there was no beginning to time, then there's something that we can't grasp as simple human beings, right? In other words, all we as human beings know is a beginning and an end to everything, birth and death, even the beginning and end of our own planet- we know when both happen(ed). So it would be "God-like" to be without this temporal limitation. So to say that evolution and the Bible cannot coexist and to be Christian is, in my opinion, wrong.

 

[Crono1000]

manic I posted that before I read your post. Ironically, I think I may have answered your question.

This is what makes us human, and why do we need to know everything.

IF there was a God before God, then how does it affect us?

This is faith, we believe in what we feel, otherwise it wouldn't be faith- it would be knowledge

 

[Vieope]

Damn Crono you are being serious that is so weird.

 

[Crono1000]

boobies

 

[milliman]

What biblical prophecies in particular?

Ham? With cheese, a little mayo.

Without looking, some major ones that come to mind are:

1) Moses bringing on the plagues to Egypt,

2) Book of Daniel was attacked by historians since it accurately predicted Assyrian and Babylonian empires would take over. Prophecies were so exact, that historians thought it was written after the events took place. It was not until they found old manuscripts of dated way before that it was proved to be a prophecy instead of a recitation of past history.

3) Death of Christ Psalm 22

"They have pierced my hands and feet.
I can count all of my bones,
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."

When written, they did not have crucifixtion, so no word could be used.
Pierced was used instead. The reference to bones is that all of his bones
were unbroken. Romans broke the leg bones at the end to hasten death.
But due to the scourging, he died earlier.
Casting lots is what they did for the dividing up dead peoples clothing.

How much more precise can you get.

3) Birth of Christ, town, city, year

4) Resurrection

 

[Vieope]

boobies

That is better. Always end your posts like that.

 

[Crono1000]

By the way, I haven't read ANY of this thread so I honestly don't know what's been said, for all I know it's a thread about monkey poo and I could be digging myself into a hole but either way, refer to Religious Thread #1-99999 for application to my post.

 

[Luke9583]

Evolution is not Science.

By definition, Science is the proposal of a theory to explain observed events.
Then you devise a test to support the theory.
You then measure the results to see if they support or deny the theory.
Anybody else should be able to duplicate your results, or it is not true.

Evolution is a theory.
You will never be able to duplicate it in a lab, so it is not provable. (neither is creation)
the best you could do is see if it agrees to the observed events. Darwin proposed "the theory" and said it should be proved by the fossil record. To this date is has never been proved by the fossil record. They have never found the so called "missing link" or links.

What's your stand on 'black holes'? They also cannot be tested, but well supported by proven theories and mathematics.

Are you a mill worker? Tool and die? Machinist? What religion are ya if you don't mind me asking?

I'm a confirmed roman catholic BTW. I even have a little sister that 'cants' the alla luya song.

 

[Rich46yo]

Yeah? And where did you get this? From MTV? First off all the Hubble "discovered" was the age of the Universe. The one who discovered how its actually expanding was the guy its named after, in the '20s or thereabouts. There is no such conflict with the Big Bang theory because when the "big bang" happened there was no such thing as space, matter, and time. That came later. There is no center of the Universe and there is no edge. And everything, except for a few galaxies locked with ours by gravity, is moving away from us.

Nothing is flat, the Universe exists in 3 spacial dimensions, but a 2 dimensional model to imagine it all is this......imagine you ink a bunch of dots on a balloon and then start blowing it up. No matter what dot you stand on, on the expanding balloon, it appears your on the center and everything else is moving away from you. The Universe is the same way, no matter where you are it appears that your in the center and everything else is moving away. But the paradox is there is no center because the Universe was created before there even was any laws of physics.

What E. Hubble discovered was that the Universe was expanding at a non-uniform rate. That Objects farther from us are moving away at a faster speed, as we are from them. Don't ask me what all this shit means because I forgot, didn't really understand it in the first place, don't want to look it up again, and probably wouldn't understand it this time either. I know he used the Doppler effect which I do understand.

And to find other earth like planets, in life zone stable orbits around hospitable Stars, would be huge. As was the discovery of other planets in the first place, as was the discovery of the universe. Each one further chips away at the nonsense the Church preaches and when we eventually find evidence of life evolving on other worlds the whole house of religious cards will come crashing down.

I think religion is a good thing. And I'm not knocking it! But they should really open their eyes and step into reality..........Rich

Studying the universe is really cool. Beautiful stuff.

The hubble telescope brought out a big problem with the big bang theory.
Imagine a explosion, stuff would be ejected in every direction from the center. Up, down, side to side, front back . . . Should be like a big expanding ball . . Factor in gravity and you should get clumping of stuff to make galaxies but still expanding from the CENTER.

After Hubble was put in space, they found that the solar system was basically flat. And the different galaxies were going in all sorts of directions other than just expanding.

Just another of the many problems with the big bang / evolution theory.

 

[shutupntra1n]

I just do not appreciate the stereotypes that people believe that all Christians are radicals. If you go read any number of religious threads they bash on Christians for being one sided, whereas so is the other argument. I don't see why I can't fall somewhere in the middle, and I know most people don't, but I'm a Christian and don't appreciate something that I feel so strongly about being ridiculed. I mean I can take a joke and all but if you're going to harrass me for my beliefs then at least know my beliefs. By the way, I haven't read ANY of this thread so I honestly don't know what's been said, for all I know it's a thread about monkey poo and I could be digging myself into a hole but either way, refer to Religious Thread #1-99999 for application to my post.

Clearly one more post I think I'll frame and hang on the wall of IM memories. That's all I'm saying here. I don't argue religion b/c to each his own fate and I sleep well at night knowing what mine is.

 

[Crono1000]

Clearly one more post I think I'll frame and hang on the wall of IM memories. That's all I'm saying here. I don't argue religion b/c to each his own fate and I sleep well at night knowing what mine is.

I edited that post so I didn't sound like I'm bitching so much. I know how to keep from whining if someone said something I don't agree with (see thead: Listen to me Black People .) And in truth, like I said, I haven't read this thread so I really jumped the gun defending I just assumed there was Side A and Side B to this argument. And in a thread like this, there's no room for whining.

even still, I think you said it best. and it kinda got me in a mood for a nap

 

[milliman]

So then the bible that the Mormons use is the same as the one the Amish use? I doubt that Milliman. I know that in a crunch two people of unlike secular beliefs would stand side by side in this debate ... but as a non religious person I see a great chasm that needs filled.

The Bible is comprised of 39 books in the old testament and 27 books in the new testament. All Christians use this. Jews only use the first 39. Mormons add on to this and use the Book of Mormon.

The Bible has many translations, but it HAS NEVER BEEN REWRITTEN.
There are plenty of ancient manuscripts to verify this.

The Amish use the same Bible. They focus a lot of attention on the verse that says "do not be conformed to the world". They take this to mean do not use electricity, or cars or whatever. Most Christians would say this means not to get involved with pursuing material wealth or whatever the world sees as a sign of success.

You can take anything in the Bible you want (other than creation) and trace it historically to its actual place. Money, cities, people groups etcetera.

The Mormons use a book written by Joseph Smith (Book of Mormon). It basically says that Jesus came to the US and details what he did here. When you test it for accuracy, (people, money places) none of it, or very little can be authenticated. IT HAS been rewritten too. It predicted we would find people like Pilgrims on the moon.

If a book is supposedly from God, then all of it must be true. So if some of the Bible is proved wrong, then it could not be from God. Hence, I do not give any credibility to the Book of Mormon.

That being said, every Mormon I have met has been a nice person.
However Jehovah's witnesses (cult) have usually been jerks.

The best way to get them to leave you alone is to tell them that you have been dis-fellowshipped. When you tell them that, they act like you have leprosy.

 

[busyLivin]

Who created this God, Yhwh, Allah everyone speaks so highly of? Who does he pray to?

I'm trying not to get into this, but here's a quick answer to that:

If there is a God and He created the universe, then He exists outside the universe & is not bound by the "beginning" or "end" of a life that we are or any law that science teaches. We can't possible know what is outside of the universe & therefore cannot put any limitations on Him.

Where we are, we are born/have a beginning. That is not necessarily the case for Him & His existence.

 

[Vieope]

I haven't read this thread so I really jumped the gun defending I just assumed there was Side A and Side B to this argument.

Yes, christian, definitely.
I am just teasing you. I love christians.

 

[Luke9583]

Clearly one more post I think I'll frame and hang on the wall of IM memories. That's all I'm saying here. I don't argue religion b/c to each his own fate and I sleep well at night knowing what mine is.

In a way, I completely agree with your statement here lis. Because IMHO, we make our fate. Why should I change what I want my fate to be to incorporate somebody elses' beleifs?

 

[busyLivin]

In a way, I completely agree with your statement here lis. Because IMHO, we make our fate. Why should I change what I want my fate to be to incorporate somebody elses' beleifs?

I don't think anyone's trying to convince anyone of anything. Just giving input on why you believe what you believe.