Actually, for the majority, you absolutely correct.
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Actually, for the majority, you absolutely correct.
I know, I listen to HMR and visit RxMuscle daily.
Oh jeez, I just hope you take what they so over there with a grain of salt
I think what is important to note here is that (this is not directed at you specifically, but rather the entire group):
a) Things are not black and white
b) There is a gray area with all this stuff that we need to sort of embrace
c) Accept the fact that real world results are extremely important
d) Accept the fact that research and being "evidence based" is extremely important
e) And, accept the fact that, while research studies are not exactly replicating what happens in real life (usually) and they have design flaws (every study has limitations); we still need to find/read research and have something to base our opinions/philosophies on.
We all come to conclusions on things that we do, our methodology. Some base their entire methodology on anecdotal reports, which probably isn't good. Others have their experienced based ideas and come to those ideas by reading research and developing their reasoning.
You have stuff that you have read that confirms what it is you know or believe to be "true" just like Built does, and I do and anyone who is a professional does (or should).
However, being open to other ideas and new(er) research is also good. It allows us to further develop our understanding of how things work.
To those who got extremely defensive and went down the road of more personal attacks, this is not good (nor is it professional). Oftentimes, we hang onto and cling to one, or a few, ideas so much that when we go to engage in argument or debate, instead of using reason or logic, we use emotion. It is difficult for us to accept the fact that others are not accepting of what it is we believe. Please, allow yourself to understand that it is okay if people disagree.
patrick
Agreed.
However I think that most of the 'angst' in this thread was because of Gopro's unwillingness to post links and how he insuinated that his personal experience was worth more than any studys we have read or personal experience we have had.
I cannot debate YOUR personal experiences! If you have tried all methods and found out one works best for YOU, there is NOTHING I can say.
But still, I will take my personal experience and accummulated REAL WORLD data (not just based on myself, but my work with hundreds of people) before ANYTHING I read in a book or journal. Plus, I also base the things I have said on how the physiology of the body generally works. Cause and effect.
Also, I am talking about what I feel is best for the majority of bodybuilders...like with anything, there are exceptions to all "rules."
We just wanted reference for what you believe, if that was ONLY personal experience, you should have said from the start.
Though I do feel you have explained yourself much better and have been more respectful during the second half of the thread. Thankyou. And you have helped produce probably the best thread ive read since becoming a member. Please stick around so there can be more like it!
Oh jeez, I just hope you take what they so over there with a grain of salt
I listen to HMR for entertainment and I like the guests they have on, i.e. last week they had Shawn Philips.
Allow me to introduce Martin Berkhan, whose focus with regard to intermittent fasting is enhancement of the physique. Leangains - Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss
Martin at age 16:
youngerdays.bmp (image)
Martin now: IFcut.jpg (image)
And yet another fan of keto...interesting.
Here, this should help...
Why Ketogenic Diets May Not Be Conducive for Muscle Anabolism During the Pre-competition Diet
Many people on the message boards were asking, ???Where is your proof that you need carbs to build muscle???? There are two studies that lead one to speculate that training in a glycogen-depleted state leads to impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy. This study does not prove that being in a glycogen-depleted state all the time may not be healthy for muscle anabolism.
The study was published in the Journal of Applied Physiology and reported that performing resistance training in a glycogen-depleted state results in impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy.1 The study follows a 2005 study in which researchers from the Human Performance Lab in Indiana reported that a glycogen-depletion diet blunts the expression of the muscle protein Akt. Akt, or protein kinase B (PKB), is an important molecule in cellular signaling. Akt is also able to induce protein synthesis pathways and is therefore a key signaling protein in the cellular pathways that lead to skeletal muscle hypertrophy and general tissue growth.
Akt is regulated in response to a wide variety of growth factors, including insulin and more recently has been associated with rapid activation in response to exercise in human skeletal muscle. In the study, they didn???t use rats or cell cultures; they used resistance-trained athletes. (The athletes had trained for almost 8 years, using resistance exercise and had exceptional leg press strength). Resistance-trained males performed resistance exercise in the glycogen-depleted state or with adequate glycogen stores. The next day the subjects returned to the weight room and completed 1-legged leg presses (8 sets of 5 repetitions ~80 percent of a 1 RM) with one leg that was glycogen-depleted while the other leg was not. Muscle biopsies were taken before exercise, immediately after and three hours after recovery.
When they examined the muscle biopsies, the researchers found that depleted muscle glycogen concentrations reduced the gene expression of muscle hypertrophy genes. Some of the more disturbing findings were that resting levels of genes involved in muscle hypertrophy (Myogenin and IGF-1) were lower in the glycogen-depleted muscle.2 Akt expression was similar in both groups before and immediately after exercise (after 10 minutes of recovery in the high carbohydrate trial). The Akt/mTOR regulates muscle hypertrophy and is downregulated during muscle atrophy. Akt phosphorylation increased 1.5-fold after resistance exercise with glycogen. During the low glycogen trial after exercise, Akt remained unchanged.2 The study concluded that commencing resistance exercise with depleted muscle glycogen does not enhance the activity of genes implicated in promoting hypertrophy. This is the stance that Steve Blechman took on the message boards; low-to-moderate carb diets are better for losing fat and maintaining an anabolic state than a low-carb ketogenic diet. The study raises awareness that low-carb ketogenic diets may not be conducive for putting on muscle mass.
For a look at a brief overview of the study, download a free copy of the National Strength and Conditioning Association???s Performance Training Journal and go to page 5. The article is titled, ???Is Muscle Glycogen A Concern For Athletes Who Want To Stimulate Muscle Hypertrophy???? by Gregory Haff, Ph.D.
http://www.nsca-lift.org/perform/Issues/PTJ0606.pdf
The AMPK Connection
AMPK is activated during states of energy stress such as hypoxia, glucose starvation and restores the energy-depleted status by concomitantly inhibiting anabolic and stimulating catabolic pathways.11-13 Protein synthesis, a major consumer of ATP in mammalian cells, is inhibited upon AMPK activation.14 Protein synthesis as mentioned previously is inhibited by increased levels of AMPK.10 Furthermore, the degree of AMPK activation during sub-maximal exercise was also shown to be dependent on the fuel status of the contracting musculature, with AMPK activity elevated to a greater extent in muscle with glycogen depletion compared with high glycogen levels.15 A new study released this month in the Journal of Applied Physiology reported that low levels of glycogen caused an increase in levels of AMPK. They examined athletes (not resistance trained, but endurance athletes) and assigned them to high fat/low carb/high protein diets. The subjects were prescribed a high-fat (4.6 g/kg/bw, 68 percent of energy), low-CHO (2.5 g/kg/day, 17 percent of energy) diet. High carbohydrate was used as a comparison. CHO was an isoenergetic diet providing 10.3 g/kg/day-70 percent of energy from CHO and 1.0 g/kg/day, 18 percent of energy from fat. Protein content was maintained at 2.3 g/kg/day during both trials and diets were constructed to maximize, or at least match, absorbable energy. After 5 days of a high fat/lo-carb diet, levels of AMPK were higher than those on the carbohydrate-rich diet. This is valuable data, but does not prove that carbs play a role in the regulation of muscle mass.
All Anabolic Reactions Occur in a Hydrated Cell
Many of the research studies investigating ketogenic diets have reported that dehydration is a common adverse event that occurs with low-carb diets. Cells that experience decreased hydration have impaired anabolic reactions. There is evidence that cellular hydration is an important factor in controlling cellular protein turnover, while protein synthesis and degradation are affected in opposite directions by cell shrinking and that an increase in cellular hydration (swelling) acts as an anabolic agent, whereas cell shrinkage is catabolic.16 Additionally, subsequent studies on the effects of cell volume on protein synthesis have reported similar findings. The results strongly suggest that cell volume is an important cellular signal for the control of protein synthesis in general.17 Being on a ketogenic diet naturally disposes you to dehydration and as mentioned previously, training in a dehydrated state also blunts testosterone levels.18
Ketogenic Diets and Exercise Intensity
Resistance exercise is intermittent in nature so typically, resistance exercise does not result in significant reductions in muscle glycogen. Some of the respondents in the debate say that they feel they can train harder on ketogenic diets. The literature suggests that reduced muscle glycogen is associated with muscle weakness,3 decreased isokinetic force production,4 and reduced isokinetic strength.5 The only athletes who have been shown to benefit from low-carb diets are endurance athletes training at low intensity, which enhances fat oxidation. Some members in the debate reported having increased strength gains on a ketogenic diet??? remember that resistance training at low reps (5 reps are less) is dependent on the ATP-PC system. However, high intensity training using resistance exercise (10-12 reps, multiple sets, with short rest periods) can result in depletion in muscle glycogen.6,7 In a review article written in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research titled ???Carbohydrate Supplementation and Resistance Training,??? the author makes several points about the benefits of carbohydrates and resistance exercise.
Spiking insulin occasionally can increase elevations in GH later in the day through hypoglycemia by insulin. Therefore, occasional carbohydrate spikes lead to increases in GH that may enhance hypertrophy induced by resistance exercise. For example, a study reported that the supplements which promote the greatest insulin spike post-exercise lead to significantly higher GH levels 5-6 hours later. In the study, the supplements that contained carbohydrates and/or carbohydrates/protein caused this spike.8 So occasionally spiking insulin with a carbohydrate may be good for muscle.
The author also concluded in the review article that, ???Current research strongly suggests that resistance training, especially using large-muscle mass free-weight exercises performed with high training volumes with moderate loads, is partially dependent upon muscle glycogen stores. The amount of glycogen used in these exercises also appears to be related to the total amount of work accomplished and the duration of the resistance-training bout. The ingestion of liquid carbohydrate may serve to promote a faster recovery, which may enhance subsequent exercise and training sessions.9???
The bottom line is that there is no universal diet that works for everyone. My graduate professor always told me to remain objective. Each year at major conferences such as Experimental Biology, National Strength and Conditioning Association, and American College of Sports Medicine, scientists present research from their laboratories and at the end of each session, there are other scientists who question the validity of their ideas and research. In the scientific community, being skeptical stimulates thought and leads to other questions and keeps the scientific community pursuing more answers.
Based on the literature, it seems that carbs, although not essential to the human diet, are needed for muscle anabolism, as indicated by certain genes being blunted during glycogen-depleted states. I am not recommending a high carbohydrate diet, but I am also not recommending a low-carb ketogenic diet. I personally believe that occasional increases in carbohydrates and insulin are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during the pre-competition diet. Based on the literature, training in a glycogen-depleted state adversely affects genes for muscle anabolism. No one has looked at changing the fat ratios either; no study has ever looked at zero-carb diets while using healthy fats (mono and omega-3s).
Unfortunately, there will probably never be a study performed for bodybuilders dieting for competition and muscle growth. We can only make conclusions based on peer-reviewed research articles; there is no one shoe that fits everyone. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
Key Points:
???Ketogenic diets are great for enhancing fat loss, but may cause more muscle loss.
???Training in a glycogen-depleted state resulted in reduced genes for muscle hypertrophy.
???Weight training performance is limited by low muscle glycogen levels.
???Low glycogen turns on AMPK which is a molecular component of a functional signaling pathway that allows skeletal muscle cells to sense and react to nutrient availability. Interestingly, age-related atrophy and decreased growth capacity is specific to fast-twitch skeletal muscle. When muscle biopsies are performed, AMPK is elevated with age in resting muscle; additionally elevated AMPK activity would correspond with atrophy in growth in fast-twitch muscle.
???Ketogenic diets promote acidosis in muscle (reduced Ph), which can increase muscle tissue proteolysis.
References:
1.Creer A, Gallagher P, Slivka D, Jemiolo B, Fink W, Trappe S. Influence
of muscle glycogen availability on ERK1/2 and Akt signaling after resistance exercise in human skeletal muscle. J Appl Physiol, 2005 Sep;99(3):950-6.
2.Churchley EG, Coffey VG, Pedersen DJ, Shield A, Carey KA, Cameron-Smith D, Hawley JA. Influence of preexercise muscle glycogen content on transcriptional activity of metabolic and myogenic genes in well-trained humans. J Appl Physiol, 2007 Apr;102(4):1604-11.
3.YASPELKIS, B.B.D., J.G. PATTERSON, P.A. ANDERLA, Z. DING, AND J.L. IVY. Carbohydrate supplementation spares muscle glycogen during variable-intensity exercise. J. Appl. Physiol, 75: 1477-1485. 1993.
4.MACDOUGALL, J.D., S. RAY, D.G. SALE, N. MCCARTNEY, P. LEE, AND S. GARNER. Muscle substrate utilization and lactate production during weightlifting. Can. J. Appl. Physiol, 24:209-215. 1999.
5.ROBERGS, R.A., D.R. PEARSON, D.L. COSTILL, W.J. FINK, D.D..PASCOE, M.A. BENEDICT, C.P. LAMBERT, AND J.J. ZACHWEIJA. Muscle glycogenolysis during differing intensities of weightresistance exercise. J. Appl. Physiol, 70:1700-1706. 1991.
6.TESCH, P.A., E.B. COLLIANDER, AND P. KAISER. Muscle metabolism during intense, heavy-resistance exercise. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol, 55:362-366. 1986.
7.TESCH, P.A., L.L. PLOUTZ-SNYDER, L. YSTRO¨M, M. CASTRO, AND G. DUDLEY. Skeletal muscle glycogen loss evoked by resistance exercise. J. Strength Cond. Res, 12:67-73. 1998.
8.CHANDLER, R.M., H.K. BYRNE, J.G. PATTERSON, AND J.L. IVY. Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise. J. Appl. Physiol, 76:839-845. 1994.
9.Haff GG, Lehmkuhl MJ, McCoy LB, Stone MH. Carbohydrate supplementation and resistance training. J Strength Cond Res, 2003 Feb;17(1):187-96. Review.
10.Rolfe DF, Brown GC 1997 Cellular energy utilization and molecular origin of standard metabolic rate in mammals. Physiol Rev, 77:731-758
11.Long YC, Zierath JR 2006 AMP-activated protein kinase signaling in metabolic regulation. J Clin Invest, 116:1776-1783
12.Hardie DG 2004 The AMP-activated protein kinase pathway??? new players upstream and downstream. J Cell Sci, 117:5479-5487
13.Mu J, Brozinick JT, Jr., Valladares O, Bucan M, Birnbaum MJ 2001 A role for AMPactivated protein kinase in contraction- and hypoxia-regulated glucose transport in skeletal muscle. Mol Cell, 7:1085-1094
14.Wojtaszewski JFP, MacDonald C, Nielsen JN, Hellsten Y, Hardie DG, Kemp BE, Kiens B, Richter EA. Regulation of 5AMP-activated protein kinase activity and substrate utilization in exercising human skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, 284: E813-E822, 2003.
15.Steinberg GR, Watt MJ, McGee SL, Chan S, Hargreaves M, Febbraio MA, Stapleton D, Kemp BE. Reduced glycogen availability is associated with increased AMPKalpha2 activity, nuclear AMPKalpha2 protein abundance, and GLUT4 mRNA expression in contracting human skeletal muscle. Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2006 Jun;31(3):302-12.
16.Latzka WA, Montain SJ. Water and electrolyte requirements for exercise. Clin Sports Med, 1999 Jul.
17.Busch GL, Völkl H, Ritter M, Gulbins E, Häussinger D, Lang F. Water, electrolyte and acid base disturbances in renal insufficiency. Physiological and pathophysiological significance of cell volume. Clin Nephrol, 1996 Oct;46(4):270-3. Review.
18.Judelson, A. et al. Effect of hydration state on resistance exercise-induced endocrine markers of anabolism,catabolism, and metabolism. Journal of Applied Physiology, July 10, 2008.
Ok, so now here is some clinical proof on top of information I have gathered after utilizing both keto diets on myself and with dozens of competitors and then comparing them to both high carb/low fat diets and also, lower carb/higher fats diets...and finding that the latter is the best for both fat loss and lean tissue maintenance FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY of natural bodybuilders whose goal is to be both big and ripped at the same time. There have been a few exceptions in my experience, but 1) They were almost pure mesomorphs and 2) They represent about 5% of the population I have worked with (in terms of bodybuilders).
Ok, I am done now and you guys make up your own minds as what is best for you
Why Ketogenic Diets May Not Be Conducive for Muscle Anabolism During the Pre-competition Diet
Many people on the message boards were asking, ???Where is your proof that you need carbs to build muscle???? There are two studies that lead one to speculate that training in a glycogen-depleted state leads to impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy. This study does not prove that being in a glycogen-depleted state all the time may not be healthy for muscle anabolism.
The study was published in the Journal of Applied Physiology and reported that performing resistance training in a glycogen-depleted state results in impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy.1 The study follows a 2005 study in which researchers from the Human Performance Lab in Indiana reported that a glycogen-depletion diet blunts the expression of the muscle protein Akt. Akt, or protein kinase B (PKB), is an important molecule in cellular signaling. Akt is also able to induce protein synthesis pathways and is therefore a key signaling protein in the cellular pathways that lead to skeletal muscle hypertrophy and general tissue growth.
Akt is regulated in response to a wide variety of growth factors, including insulin and more recently has been associated with rapid activation in response to exercise in human skeletal muscle. In the study, they didn???t use rats or cell cultures; they used resistance-trained athletes. (The athletes had trained for almost 8 years, using resistance exercise and had exceptional leg press strength). Resistance-trained males performed resistance exercise in the glycogen-depleted state or with adequate glycogen stores. The next day the subjects returned to the weight room and completed 1-legged leg presses (8 sets of 5 repetitions ~80 percent of a 1 RM) with one leg that was glycogen-depleted while the other leg was not. Muscle biopsies were taken before exercise, immediately after and three hours after recovery.
When they examined the muscle biopsies, the researchers found that depleted muscle glycogen concentrations reduced the gene expression of muscle hypertrophy genes. Some of the more disturbing findings were that resting levels of genes involved in muscle hypertrophy (Myogenin and IGF-1) were lower in the glycogen-depleted muscle.2 Akt expression was similar in both groups before and immediately after exercise (after 10 minutes of recovery in the high carbohydrate trial). The Akt/mTOR regulates muscle hypertrophy and is downregulated during muscle atrophy. Akt phosphorylation increased 1.5-fold after resistance exercise with glycogen. During the low glycogen trial after exercise, Akt remained unchanged.2 The study concluded that commencing resistance exercise with depleted muscle glycogen does not enhance the activity of genes implicated in promoting hypertrophy. This is the stance that Steve Blechman took on the message boards; low-to-moderate carb diets are better for losing fat and maintaining an anabolic state than a low-carb ketogenic diet. The study raises awareness that low-carb ketogenic diets may not be conducive for putting on muscle mass.
For a look at a brief overview of the study, download a free copy of the National Strength and Conditioning Association???s Performance Training Journal and go to page 5. The article is titled, ???Is Muscle Glycogen A Concern For Athletes Who Want To Stimulate Muscle Hypertrophy???? by Gregory Haff, Ph.D.
http://www.nsca-lift.org/perform/Issues/PTJ0606.pdf
The AMPK Connection
AMPK is activated during states of energy stress such as hypoxia, glucose starvation and restores the energy-depleted status by concomitantly inhibiting anabolic and stimulating catabolic pathways.11-13 Protein synthesis, a major consumer of ATP in mammalian cells, is inhibited upon AMPK activation.14 Protein synthesis as mentioned previously is inhibited by increased levels of AMPK.10 Furthermore, the degree of AMPK activation during sub-maximal exercise was also shown to be dependent on the fuel status of the contracting musculature, with AMPK activity elevated to a greater extent in muscle with glycogen depletion compared with high glycogen levels.15 A new study released this month in the Journal of Applied Physiology reported that low levels of glycogen caused an increase in levels of AMPK. They examined athletes (not resistance trained, but endurance athletes) and assigned them to high fat/low carb/high protein diets. The subjects were prescribed a high-fat (4.6 g/kg/bw, 68 percent of energy), low-CHO (2.5 g/kg/day, 17 percent of energy) diet. High carbohydrate was used as a comparison. CHO was an isoenergetic diet providing 10.3 g/kg/day-70 percent of energy from CHO and 1.0 g/kg/day, 18 percent of energy from fat. Protein content was maintained at 2.3 g/kg/day during both trials and diets were constructed to maximize, or at least match, absorbable energy. After 5 days of a high fat/lo-carb diet, levels of AMPK were higher than those on the carbohydrate-rich diet. This is valuable data, but does not prove that carbs play a role in the regulation of muscle mass.
All Anabolic Reactions Occur in a Hydrated Cell
Many of the research studies investigating ketogenic diets have reported that dehydration is a common adverse event that occurs with low-carb diets. Cells that experience decreased hydration have impaired anabolic reactions. There is evidence that cellular hydration is an important factor in controlling cellular protein turnover, while protein synthesis and degradation are affected in opposite directions by cell shrinking and that an increase in cellular hydration (swelling) acts as an anabolic agent, whereas cell shrinkage is catabolic.16 Additionally, subsequent studies on the effects of cell volume on protein synthesis have reported similar findings. The results strongly suggest that cell volume is an important cellular signal for the control of protein synthesis in general.17 Being on a ketogenic diet naturally disposes you to dehydration and as mentioned previously, training in a dehydrated state also blunts testosterone levels.18
Ketogenic Diets and Exercise Intensity
Resistance exercise is intermittent in nature so typically, resistance exercise does not result in significant reductions in muscle glycogen. Some of the respondents in the debate say that they feel they can train harder on ketogenic diets. The literature suggests that reduced muscle glycogen is associated with muscle weakness,3 decreased isokinetic force production,4 and reduced isokinetic strength.5 The only athletes who have been shown to benefit from low-carb diets are endurance athletes training at low intensity, which enhances fat oxidation. Some members in the debate reported having increased strength gains on a ketogenic diet??? remember that resistance training at low reps (5 reps are less) is dependent on the ATP-PC system. However, high intensity training using resistance exercise (10-12 reps, multiple sets, with short rest periods) can result in depletion in muscle glycogen.6,7 In a review article written in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research titled ???Carbohydrate Supplementation and Resistance Training,??? the author makes several points about the benefits of carbohydrates and resistance exercise.
Spiking insulin occasionally can increase elevations in GH later in the day through hypoglycemia by insulin. Therefore, occasional carbohydrate spikes lead to increases in GH that may enhance hypertrophy induced by resistance exercise. For example, a study reported that the supplements which promote the greatest insulin spike post-exercise lead to significantly higher GH levels 5-6 hours later. In the study, the supplements that contained carbohydrates and/or carbohydrates/protein caused this spike.8 So occasionally spiking insulin with a carbohydrate may be good for muscle.
The author also concluded in the review article that, ???Current research strongly suggests that resistance training, especially using large-muscle mass free-weight exercises performed with high training volumes with moderate loads, is partially dependent upon muscle glycogen stores. The amount of glycogen used in these exercises also appears to be related to the total amount of work accomplished and the duration of the resistance-training bout. The ingestion of liquid carbohydrate may serve to promote a faster recovery, which may enhance subsequent exercise and training sessions.9???
The bottom line is that there is no universal diet that works for everyone. My graduate professor always told me to remain objective. Each year at major conferences such as Experimental Biology, National Strength and Conditioning Association, and American College of Sports Medicine, scientists present research from their laboratories and at the end of each session, there are other scientists who question the validity of their ideas and research. In the scientific community, being skeptical stimulates thought and leads to other questions and keeps the scientific community pursuing more answers.
Based on the literature, it seems that carbs, although not essential to the human diet, are needed for muscle anabolism, as indicated by certain genes being blunted during glycogen-depleted states. I am not recommending a high carbohydrate diet, but I am also not recommending a low-carb ketogenic diet. I personally believe that occasional increases in carbohydrates and insulin are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during the pre-competition diet. Based on the literature, training in a glycogen-depleted state adversely affects genes for muscle anabolism. No one has looked at changing the fat ratios either; no study has ever looked at zero-carb diets while using healthy fats (mono and omega-3s).
Unfortunately, there will probably never be a study performed for bodybuilders dieting for competition and muscle growth. We can only make conclusions based on peer-reviewed research articles; there is no one shoe that fits everyone. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
Key Points:
???Ketogenic diets are great for enhancing fat loss, but may cause more muscle loss.
???Training in a glycogen-depleted state resulted in reduced genes for muscle hypertrophy.
???Weight training performance is limited by low muscle glycogen levels.
???Low glycogen turns on AMPK which is a molecular component of a functional signaling pathway that allows skeletal muscle cells to sense and react to nutrient availability. Interestingly, age-related atrophy and decreased growth capacity is specific to fast-twitch skeletal muscle. When muscle biopsies are performed, AMPK is elevated with age in resting muscle; additionally elevated AMPK activity would correspond with atrophy in growth in fast-twitch muscle.
???Ketogenic diets promote acidosis in muscle (reduced Ph), which can increase muscle tissue proteolysis.
References:
1.Creer A, Gallagher P, Slivka D, Jemiolo B, Fink W, Trappe S. Influence
of muscle glycogen availability on ERK1/2 and Akt signaling after resistance exercise in human skeletal muscle. J Appl Physiol, 2005 Sep;99(3):950-6.
2.Churchley EG, Coffey VG, Pedersen DJ, Shield A, Carey KA, Cameron-Smith D, Hawley JA. Influence of preexercise muscle glycogen content on transcriptional activity of metabolic and myogenic genes in well-trained humans. J Appl Physiol, 2007 Apr;102(4):1604-11.
3.YASPELKIS, B.B.D., J.G. PATTERSON, P.A. ANDERLA, Z. DING, AND J.L. IVY. Carbohydrate supplementation spares muscle glycogen during variable-intensity exercise. J. Appl. Physiol, 75: 1477-1485. 1993.
4.MACDOUGALL, J.D., S. RAY, D.G. SALE, N. MCCARTNEY, P. LEE, AND S. GARNER. Muscle substrate utilization and lactate production during weightlifting. Can. J. Appl. Physiol, 24:209-215. 1999.
5.ROBERGS, R.A., D.R. PEARSON, D.L. COSTILL, W.J. FINK, D.D..PASCOE, M.A. BENEDICT, C.P. LAMBERT, AND J.J. ZACHWEIJA. Muscle glycogenolysis during differing intensities of weightresistance exercise. J. Appl. Physiol, 70:1700-1706. 1991.
6.TESCH, P.A., E.B. COLLIANDER, AND P. KAISER. Muscle metabolism during intense, heavy-resistance exercise. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol, 55:362-366. 1986.
7.TESCH, P.A., L.L. PLOUTZ-SNYDER, L. YSTRO¨M, M. CASTRO, AND G. DUDLEY. Skeletal muscle glycogen loss evoked by resistance exercise. J. Strength Cond. Res, 12:67-73. 1998.
8.CHANDLER, R.M., H.K. BYRNE, J.G. PATTERSON, AND J.L. IVY. Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise. J. Appl. Physiol, 76:839-845. 1994.
9.Haff GG, Lehmkuhl MJ, McCoy LB, Stone MH. Carbohydrate supplementation and resistance training. J Strength Cond Res, 2003 Feb;17(1):187-96. Review.
10.Rolfe DF, Brown GC 1997 Cellular energy utilization and molecular origin of standard metabolic rate in mammals. Physiol Rev, 77:731-758
11.Long YC, Zierath JR 2006 AMP-activated protein kinase signaling in metabolic regulation. J Clin Invest, 116:1776-1783
12.Hardie DG 2004 The AMP-activated protein kinase pathway??? new players upstream and downstream. J Cell Sci, 117:5479-5487
13.Mu J, Brozinick JT, Jr., Valladares O, Bucan M, Birnbaum MJ 2001 A role for AMPactivated protein kinase in contraction- and hypoxia-regulated glucose transport in skeletal muscle. Mol Cell, 7:1085-1094
14.Wojtaszewski JFP, MacDonald C, Nielsen JN, Hellsten Y, Hardie DG, Kemp BE, Kiens B, Richter EA. Regulation of 5AMP-activated protein kinase activity and substrate utilization in exercising human skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, 284: E813-E822, 2003.
15.Steinberg GR, Watt MJ, McGee SL, Chan S, Hargreaves M, Febbraio MA, Stapleton D, Kemp BE. Reduced glycogen availability is associated with increased AMPKalpha2 activity, nuclear AMPKalpha2 protein abundance, and GLUT4 mRNA expression in contracting human skeletal muscle. Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2006 Jun;31(3):302-12.
16.Latzka WA, Montain SJ. Water and electrolyte requirements for exercise. Clin Sports Med, 1999 Jul.
17.Busch GL, Völkl H, Ritter M, Gulbins E, Häussinger D, Lang F. Water, electrolyte and acid base disturbances in renal insufficiency. Physiological and pathophysiological significance of cell volume. Clin Nephrol, 1996 Oct;46(4):270-3. Review.
18.Judelson, A. et al. Effect of hydration state on resistance exercise-induced endocrine markers of anabolism,catabolism, and metabolism. Journal of Applied Physiology, July 10, 2008.
Ok, so now here is some clinical proof on top of information I have gathered after utilizing both keto diets on myself and with dozens of competitors and then comparing them to both high carb/low fat diets and also, lower carb/higher fats diets...and finding that the latter is the best for both fat loss and lean tissue maintenance FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY of natural bodybuilders whose goal is to be both big and ripped at the same time. There have been a few exceptions in my experience, but 1) They were almost pure mesomorphs and 2) They represent about 5% of the population I have worked with (in terms of bodybuilders).
Ok, I am done now and you guys make up your own minds as what is best for you
Just out of curiosity, does this fasting diet imply you should not eat after lifting weights on fasting days? I know you can lift when fasting, (It's suggested) but are you recommended to have a meal after weight training? (Although it may be a fasting day)
Gopro thanks for that. It doesn't address my concern though - for one, the first study says muscle anabolism is not supported - but while cutting, we're not going for anabolism. We're just trying to preserve lean mass while dropping fat.
The second suggests keto is lousy for intense training. Again, anyone prepping for a BB comp should be reducing training volume while dieting on very low carb consumption; for example, while following Lyle McDonald's "Rapid Fat Loss" aka PSMF, my entire workout consisted of EITHER
Workout A: squats, t-bars, bench press
or
Workout B: RDLs, weighted chins, clean and press
Workout A OR workout B was performed every third day, 3 sets of five. Whole workout took me twenty minutes. Minimal cardio (okay, I went window shopping a few times).
I don't think this is the same kind of exercise intensity being referred to in the research.
The second suggests keto is lousy for intense training. Again, anyone prepping for a BB comp should be reducing training volume while dieting on very low carb consumption; for example, while following Lyle McDonald's "Rapid Fat Loss" aka PSMF, my entire workout consisted of EITHER
Workout A: squats, t-bars, bench press
or
Workout B: RDLs, weighted chins, clean and press
Workout A OR workout B was performed every third day, 3 sets of five. Whole workout took me twenty minutes. Minimal cardio (okay, I went window shopping a few times).
I don't think this is the same kind of exercise intensity being referred to in the research.
Real quick...
#1...Unless you are a genetic freak of some kind, bodybuilders that step onstage still need to train like they always do to show a complete physique. You may be the only person I have ever heard of IN MY LIFE that could train like that and compete successfully on any decent level.
#2...The same EXACT process that builds new tissue will also retain muscle tissue. When you dehydrate muscle cells, decrease muscle growth factors, increase cortisol levels, etc, you will cause muscle to atrophy, which is exactly what this article was about.
But its cool. I knew it would not change your mind.
Anyway, its been a fun discussion!
I don't compete. I just diet and train like I'm going to, and take pix and DEXA scans. To me this entire process is more of an academic curiosity than a performance - although I respect those who approach it differently. It's just not my primary interest.
My friends who DO compete, do NOT train the same while doing precontest prep as they do while bulking or maintaining. They reduce training volume as their calories drop, as the strategic focus switches from "hypertrophy while eating at a surplus" to "muscle-retention while eating at a progressively stronger deficit". You can talk to Merkaba if you like - I helped him prep for his first show and he came in second. He's lifelong natural too - never touched so much as a testosterone booster.
I realize this is not the industry norm. Most competitors overtrain themselves (or their trainers overtrain them to death) with high-rep, high-volume training and increasing amounts of cardio. For assisted athletes, as you know of course, this isn't as much of a concern. Still not optimal, but the drugs are there to protect lbm. For natty lifters, the safest strategy is what I described.
Think of it this way - you'd hardly run a business the same way during a recession as you do during an economic boom, right? Same thing.
Joel explains it well: T-Nation.com | Ripped, Rugged, and Dense
My friends who DO compete, do NOT train the same while doing precontest prep as they do while bulking or maintaining. They reduce training volume as their calories drop, as the strategic focus switches from "hypertrophy while eating at a surplus" to "muscle-retention while eating at a progressively stronger deficit". You can talk to Merkaba if you like - I helped him prep for his first show and he came in second. He's lifelong natural too - never touched so much as a testosterone booster.
I realize this is not the industry norm. Most competitors overtrain themselves (or their trainers overtrain them to death) with high-rep, high-volume training and increasing amounts of cardio. For assisted athletes, as you know of course, this isn't as much of a concern. Still not optimal, but the drugs are there to protect lbm. For natty lifters, the safest strategy is what I described.
Think of it this way - you'd hardly run a business the same way during a recession as you do during an economic boom, right? Same thing.
Joel explains it well: T-Nation.com | Ripped, Rugged, and Dense
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hey gopro...
I have some questions.
How many days in a week should I train? (i have started training from 5 months.)
Does cardio affect my muscle growth in a negative way? How does it affect it?
I have some questions.
How many days in a week should I train? (i have started training from 5 months.)
Does cardio affect my muscle growth in a negative way? How does it affect it?
Last edited:
you should start a new thread for this.
Here is my feeling...
I train the same way to maintain muscle as I do to build it, still trying to lift as heavy as possible and push myself to the limit. At no other time is my nutrition, supplementation, rest, and focus more on point then before a show, which is why I can in a sense push myself even further at this point.
The only change I may make before a show is to add in some movements I may not normally use in order to work on some finer details, and/or to address weaknesses as I can now see them with my bodyfat lower.
In order to maintain muscle tissue the body works through the same mechanisms as it does to build it. The only difference is that without a slight calorie surplus there are not enough "building blocks" to increase lean tissue, as when on a diet.
One of the biggest mistakes many competitors make, IMO, is to change their training too much when preparing for a show.
I am so, so far from a genetically gifted bodybuilder and I am able to always come on stage in shape at near 220 lbs, which is rare for a natural. Thus, I am very confident in my approach.
That said, if something different works for YOU or for let's say Built, then I cannot argue that. I have not seen Built's entire physique, only her abs, but if she can dial her body in, with a complete "stage physique," with as little work as she says she does, I am sorry, but I must put her in the genetically gifted minority. 98% of bodybuilders would fail miserably, IMO, to reach the highest levels of competition with such a plan.
I train the same way to maintain muscle as I do to build it, still trying to lift as heavy as possible and push myself to the limit. At no other time is my nutrition, supplementation, rest, and focus more on point then before a show, which is why I can in a sense push myself even further at this point.
The only change I may make before a show is to add in some movements I may not normally use in order to work on some finer details, and/or to address weaknesses as I can now see them with my bodyfat lower.
In order to maintain muscle tissue the body works through the same mechanisms as it does to build it. The only difference is that without a slight calorie surplus there are not enough "building blocks" to increase lean tissue, as when on a diet.
One of the biggest mistakes many competitors make, IMO, is to change their training too much when preparing for a show.
I am so, so far from a genetically gifted bodybuilder and I am able to always come on stage in shape at near 220 lbs, which is rare for a natural. Thus, I am very confident in my approach.
That said, if something different works for YOU or for let's say Built, then I cannot argue that. I have not seen Built's entire physique, only her abs, but if she can dial her body in, with a complete "stage physique," with as little work as she says she does, I am sorry, but I must put her in the genetically gifted minority. 98% of bodybuilders would fail miserably, IMO, to reach the highest levels of competition with such a plan.
This is without knowing any details about you...
3-4 days per week should work well for you, which is the normal frequency I recommend to most naturals
Cardio will only affect your muscle growth negatively if OVER done. Even in my offseason when my main goal is to add muscle I still do 4 days per week of 20 minutes on the treadmill.
There's a full pic of me in my profile if you want to see it, gopro.
I'm not contest lean in it - I'm 14%. I'd have to diet down to about 10% for contest-type conditioning.
I'm forty two in that shot, and I had been quite overweight until the age of 38.
Kindly explain how your training during a cut can bring up finer details?
I'm not contest lean in it - I'm 14%. I'd have to diet down to about 10% for contest-type conditioning.
I'm forty two in that shot, and I had been quite overweight until the age of 38.
Kindly explain how your training during a cut can bring up finer details?
You look great in that shot! Kudos!
Meaning that you can specialize on certain areas of the physique through training, such as say lateral deltoids, inner triceps or mid-back, for example. You probably do not believe you can target such areas, but no need to get into that. I am simply answering your question.
I won't concern myself for now with the notion of bringing up specific muscle-parts, but how do you mean "bring up"? You mean "hypertrophy"? We're specifically talking precontest, right, while cutting, hard.
PS thanks! I was pretty pleased. After spending most of my adult lifetime as "the fat one that's good at math" it was kinda cool to have a ring of veins around my navel.
PS thanks! I was pretty pleased. After spending most of my adult lifetime as "the fat one that's good at math" it was kinda cool to have a ring of veins around my navel.
By the way, here's a larger version of that shot.
I have it embedded in a link on this article, that basically describes how I did it.
(you can click on the pic for a bigger version)
Got Built? » Keeping it going - the evolutionary process of fat loss
I have it embedded in a link on this article, that basically describes how I did it.
(you can click on the pic for a bigger version)
Got Built? » Keeping it going - the evolutionary process of fat loss
By the way, here's a larger version of that shot.
I have it embedded in a link on this article, that basically describes how I did it.
(you can click on the pic for a bigger version)
Got Built? » Keeping it going - the evolutionary process of fat loss
Again, you look wonderful!
By "bring up," I do mean hypertrophy in the beginning stages of prep, when calories are still high enough...and then later on it is more of a deep "mental connection" thing that it would take me several pages to fully explain.
Hypertrophy in a surplus I'm jiggy with. Muscle-shaping, well, I'll leave that one to the physiology geeks. I don't know enough about it to argue intelligently about it, and it really doesn't matter what I "believe" now, does it?
Hypertrophy in a cut, now that's a different matter. Outside of newbie gains - or chemical assistance - that's gonna be a tough sell, although with a muscle-pump and less fat-covering, it can certainly LOOK like hypertrophy, especially after shit-loading! Gotta love a good junk-food pump!
Mental connection I have more respect for than you might think. For one, although my undergraduate degree is in Math (Statistics, specifically), my minor concentration was Psychology, and the area I spent the most time with was brain and behaviour.
I'm dealing with a left lat that won't fire properly right now - herniated disk in my neck is pressing on a nerve - and I'm using visualization and muscle-stim among other things to retrain the connection while I floss the nerves to allow for better nutrient flow along the affected neuron. I can imagine that fatiguing a muscle under a variety of conditions would strengthen the brain-body connection, making it easier to fire and therefore, to pump and pose.
Could make an interesting article, gopro. You should write it.
Hypertrophy in a cut, now that's a different matter. Outside of newbie gains - or chemical assistance - that's gonna be a tough sell, although with a muscle-pump and less fat-covering, it can certainly LOOK like hypertrophy, especially after shit-loading! Gotta love a good junk-food pump!
Mental connection I have more respect for than you might think. For one, although my undergraduate degree is in Math (Statistics, specifically), my minor concentration was Psychology, and the area I spent the most time with was brain and behaviour.
I'm dealing with a left lat that won't fire properly right now - herniated disk in my neck is pressing on a nerve - and I'm using visualization and muscle-stim among other things to retrain the connection while I floss the nerves to allow for better nutrient flow along the affected neuron. I can imagine that fatiguing a muscle under a variety of conditions would strengthen the brain-body connection, making it easier to fire and therefore, to pump and pose.
Could make an interesting article, gopro. You should write it.
Your abs look as if they are chiseled!!! Great to know that you are doing it again. Can't wait to see the latest cut pics.
By the way, here's a larger version of that shot.
I have it embedded in a link on this article, that basically describes how I did it.
(you can click on the pic for a bigger version)
Got Built? » Keeping it going - the evolutionary process of fat loss
The abs were insane. A friend I work with was asking me what to do for her abs and I said "chins, heavy compounds, and sprint intervals" - and let her feel them. Her response: "Oh, that's not human..."
I giggled!
At work - I work in an office, right, trays of candies and donuts and muffins all over the place - I just walk past the trays while fondling my abs... "there there, my pretties..."
Hehehehehe...
I giggled!
At work - I work in an office, right, trays of candies and donuts and muffins all over the place - I just walk past the trays while fondling my abs... "there there, my pretties..."
Hehehehehe...
I notice that people gawk at me when I go to Dunkin Donuts and refuse a free donut.
Yeah it's called enjoying the bennies of looking damn good. My friend gets a cruller, a cinnamon bagel and a chocolate donut "for later" and at the same time, mumbles "I gotta lose weight."
And since I instituted the mdrol, forget about it-that in itself is inspiration alone. I'm down with doing another PH cycle eventually, but for now, the PCT and time on/off will be okay.
Of course, a Boston Cream donut would be pretty damn fulfilling too.
Yeah it's called enjoying the bennies of looking damn good. My friend gets a cruller, a cinnamon bagel and a chocolate donut "for later" and at the same time, mumbles "I gotta lose weight."
And since I instituted the mdrol, forget about it-that in itself is inspiration alone. I'm down with doing another PH cycle eventually, but for now, the PCT and time on/off will be okay.
Of course, a Boston Cream donut would be pretty damn fulfilling too.
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