George Bush = Adolf Hitler?

[Flex]

Re: Re: George Bush = Adolf Hitler?

Originally posted by butterfly
That is a horrific comparison, none of our politicians deserve that

tis true. honestly no one deserves that (with the exception of a few bastards like Milosevic, Sadam etc.)

plus i'd say Bush is more like a Stalin anyway

 

[Dale Mabry]

Who put Ashcroft where he is at?

According to Violence Against Women, 1400 women die per year from assaults by their significant other. This is all women, not just pregnant ones. I find it hard to believe that complete strangers are coming up to women, asking if they are pregnant, and then killing them if they are. Your stat is misleading because not all that many women who get pregnant die considering most of them are in their early 30's which is a fairly healthy population. Why not increase the penalty for murder? Because it does not get the conservatives where they want. If you pass a law that states that you can be charged for the death of the mother and fetus in a murder case, then you are stating that the fetus is viable. By doing that, you would be opening the avenue of prosecuting people who perform abortions, since the other law states that the fetus is indeed viable.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

^i dont think most preg women are early 30's

rather mid 20's

 

[Dale Mabry]

My point was that at 35, it is rare for a woman to get pregnant since this is were you generally start to see more defects. I would say the average is actually in the low 20's

 

[butterfly]

First, there are already laws stating when a fetus is viable. A baby traditionally is viewed as viable in the third trimester of pregnancy. Some babies have survived outside the womb just 20 weeks into a pregnancy.

One example is Nevada law which states, "A person who willfully kills an unborn quick child by an injury committed upon the mother of the child commits manslaughter."

A "quick child" is a child that has developed to the point it can move within the uterus.

Example 1:
In the following case a conviction under the general homicide statutes were upheld where there was a finding that a fetus was a "person or a "human being."

The fact that a mother of a pre-born child may have been granted certain legal rights to terminate the pregnancy does not preclude the prosecution of a third party for murder in the case of a killing of a child not consented to by the mother; thus person who forcibly aborts a fetus against the will of the woman by physically restraining or assaulting the woman may be prosecuted for the murder of the unborn child, even if the mother is not otherwise injured, and such a prosecution is not arbitrary, capricious, or discriminatory, in violation of due process. U.S.C.A. Const. Amend. 14; V.A.M.S. §§ 1.205, 188.010-188.085, 565.020, subd. 1. State v. Holcomb, 956 S.W.2d 286, 64 A.L.R.5th 901 (Mo. Ct. App. W.D. 1997), reh'g and/or transfer denied, (51077)(Oct. 28, 1997) and transfer denied, (Dec. 23, 1997)

Example 2:
In the following case the courts held that a conviction for the murder of a fetus could be upheld based on a finding that the fetus was viable.

Hughes v. State, 868 P.2d 730 (Okla. Crim. App. 1994), the court held that the common-law, "born alive" rule was abandoned so that whether it is ultimately born alive, an unborn fetus that was viable at time of an injury was a human being who may be the subject of a homicide under Okla. Stat. tit. 21 § 691 (1981).

So you can see why I'm not buying your argument that "you would be opening the avenue of prosecuting people who perform abortions, since the other law states that the fetus is indeed viable."

Second, the majority of pregnant women are murdered by their intimate partner. I found the report you are referring to but I couldn't find any reports at the DOJ's Office on Violence Against Women website specifically on the subject of Murder Of Pregnant Women. You can research it on the net and you'll find many, many articles on the subject.

 

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
My point was that at 35, it is rare for a woman to get pregnant since this is were you generally start to see more defects. I would say the average is actually in the low 20's

I think it depends more on your social group, environment, etc.

I'm 34 having my 2nd child.
A close friend is 36 and just had her 2nd child.
Another close friend is 39 and just had her 2nd child.
A friend is 40 and is having her 2nd child.
My aunt was 48 when she had her 2nd child.

I know several women in their mid-20's who are waiting to have children until they are done with college/ have a more solid career/ want to be married for awhile/ maybe travel while still young, etc...


MyCat lives in a pretty small town and having relatives of my own also from a small town, I can see that the trend is basically the younger you have a baby the better.

In Houston the 4th largest city in the U.S., the trend is much different.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I have seen an instance where a child has lived that didn't even make it to 20wks in the womb. As technology gets better, this scenario becomes more and more likely. Using this criteria, a fetus is viable so long as technology can keep it alive. This leaves the definition of viable up for interpretation.

Also, the court case you cite is in 1997 and states "a mother of a pre-born child may have been granted certain legal rights to terminate the pregnancy..." This case depends on the law that stated, at that time, abortion was legal. Given that the right to abortion will most certainly come up again if Bush stays in office, now there is leverage. Well, this law states that the fetus is viable, so through the transitive property, abortion is killing a viable fetus. It is not that hard, rather than charge for both murderss, make a special case where murdering a pregnant mother gets a greater penalty. The fact that they NEEDED to get the fetus is viable in the wording of the law makes it seem shady to me.


Also, your final statement is worder improperly. It should state that the majority of pregnant women who are murdered are murdered by their intimate partner. This is probably true, but 51% is a majority so without a statistic, I am not going to jump to the assumption that this number is 90%


This is taken from AMNews:

Uncovering the number of homicides, which accounted for 20% of all pregnancy-related deaths in the study, was not the goal of her research, she added. But it was a surprising finding that raises important public health policy questions. "Until we know what is a problem, we don't know how to address it," she said. "[Identification] is the first step."

This was only reported from Maryland, but the author states that it can be extrapolated to the rest of the US, although not every state lists whether or not a woman was pregnant at the time of death.

 

[pu239]

I don't normally like to get involved in these threads, but everyone calling Bush stupid really irritates me. The man has an undergrad degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard. Many of you calling him dumb I'm sure voted for Al Gore. Let's not forget that Gore failed 5 of 8 classes while attending Vanderbilt Divinity School.

Bush also made millions in various investments and businesses. John Kerry made his money by marrying into it. I'm not saying that Bush is smarter than Gore or Kerry, but let's be honest here - a stupid person does not typically have degrees from Yale and Harvard and make himself a millionaire.

 

[Arnold]

Originally posted by pu239
I don't normally like to get involved in these threads, but everyone calling Bush stupid really irritates me. The man has an undergrad degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard. Many of you calling him dumb I'm sure voted for Al Gore. Let's not forget that Gore failed 5 of 8 classes while attending Vanderbilt Divinity School.

Bush also made millions in various investments and businesses. John Kerry made his money by marrying into it. I'm not saying that Bush is smarter than Gore or Kerry, but let's be honest here - a stupid person does not typically have degrees from Yale and Harvard and make himself a millionaire.

you think that Bush got in to those Ivy league schools because of his intellect?

either way, I do not think Bush is stupid, I just think he has gone mad.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Originally posted by Prince
you think that Bush got in to those Ivy league schools because of his intellect?

either way, I do not think Bush is stupid, I just think he has gone mad.

good point
i mean
when your dad was the president.... you know?

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

MyCat lives in a pretty small town and having relatives of my own also from a small town, I can see that the trend is basically the younger you have a baby the better.

umm....where i live makes no difference on why i said mid-20s...
ive lived in many places

and i was just saying that most women have children in their 20's
not 30's

 

[ALBOB]

Originally posted by Prince
you think that Bush got in to those Ivy league schools because of his intellect?

How someone get's in to a college has nothing to do with intellect in a lot of cases. What sets Bush apart is how well he did after he got in.

 

[JJJ]

Originally posted by GAmuscle26
It seems that way, but trust me they aren't. In Germany, you can goto jail for calling someone a Nazi. Europeans have different attitudes about sex, but honestly, they are not beating us on the freedom issue. I know from experience.

Calling someone a nazi will not get you thrown in jail. I hear that in Alabama its illegal to look at a girls breast (except your wifes) and you go to jail in Australia for impersinating (sp?) a crocodile.

But its not gonna happen, get my drift?

 

[camarosuper6]

I like Bush.

Ill vote for him again

 

[Eggs]

I think that its easy for people to compare Bush to our monsters of yesterday when they do not have any personal experience with the matter at hand. If a person was alive for both time periods and could look at it from the point of view of experience, I would say that the opinion would hold a little more ground.

Do I see Bush as promoting Christianity? Hrm, yes, I really have to say I do. However, quite a few of those before him were pushing exactly the opposite agenda. The rights in this country exist not in the hands of the politicians, but in the hands of those who put them into place. This of course is not completely true... but to be certain Bush is doing nothing now that he did not say he would do when he was elected. The people elected him... this is what Democracy is all about. If he oversteps his bounds, then the next president to follow will reshape the political scene in his own image. Its the choices we make as voters that cause these changes to take place. If you dont want Bush to be elected again... well, its about time you went and did something about it, because complaining here isnt going to sway opinion. Likewise, if you want Bush in office, take a part in it and work to keep him in.

Democracy is a good system... but a majority it is. The will of the people is a 51% (and often less) vote... which leaves the possibility of at least 49% disgruntled.

As to his degree... I very much doubt that your views that he got his degree because of his daddy hold much water. In fact, I think it preposterous. In that little paragraph you are summing up each one of the teachers/professors that he had and are saying that every one of them lacked the morals to properly administer their class. While I'm sure that sounds good, but I highly doubt that 40 or so professors would all lack such a defining characteristic for college faculty.

 

[Arnold]

Originally posted by ALBOB
How someone get's in to a college has nothing to do with intellect in a lot of cases. What sets Bush apart is how well he did after he got in.

You kidding me?

Did you graduate from a university?

Ever see how first string football players get special treatment? do they ever fail a class?

 

[Dale Mabry]

Originally posted by pu239
I don't normally like to get involved in these threads, but everyone calling Bush stupid really irritates me. The man has an undergrad degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard. Many of you calling him dumb I'm sure voted for Al Gore. Let's not forget that Gore failed 5 of 8 classes while attending Vanderbilt Divinity School.

Bush also made millions in various investments and businesses. John Kerry made his money by marrying into it. I'm not saying that Bush is smarter than Gore or Kerry, but let's be honest here - a stupid person does not typically have degrees from Yale and Harvard and make himself a millionaire.

Intelligence or what school you went to has nothing to do with making stupid decisions.

So you would say Jessica Simpson is smart then? She is a millionaire and that stupid bitch thinks Chicken of the Sea is Chicken. But she is hot so I will let it go.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Originally posted by butterfly
I think it depends more on your social group, environment, etc.

I'm 34 having my 2nd child.
A close friend is 36 and just had her 2nd child.
Another close friend is 39 and just had her 2nd child.
A friend is 40 and is having her 2nd child.
My aunt was 48 when she had her 2nd child.

I know several women in their mid-20's who are waiting to have children until they are done with college/ have a more solid career/ want to be married for awhile/ maybe travel while still young, etc...


MyCat lives in a pretty small town and having relatives of my own also from a small town, I can see that the trend is basically the younger you have a baby the better.

In Houston the 4th largest city in the U.S., the trend is much different.

In Philadelphia, I would say the trend is that you have a couple before the age of 20, and I have seen data that supports this.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Originally posted by Eggs
I think that its easy for people to compare Bush to our monsters of yesterday when they do not have any personal experience with the matter at hand. If a person was alive for both time periods and could look at it from the point of view of experience, I would say that the opinion would hold a little more ground.

Do I see Bush as promoting Christianity? Hrm, yes, I really have to say I do. However, quite a few of those before him were pushing exactly the opposite agenda. The rights in this country exist not in the hands of the politicians, but in the hands of those who put them into place. This of course is not completely true... but to be certain Bush is doing nothing now that he did not say he would do when he was elected. The people elected him... this is what Democracy is all about. If he oversteps his bounds, then the next president to follow will reshape the political scene in his own image. Its the choices we make as voters that cause these changes to take place. If you dont want Bush to be elected again... well, its about time you went and did something about it, because complaining here isnt going to sway opinion. Likewise, if you want Bush in office, take a part in it and work to keep him in.

Democracy is a good system... but a majority it is. The will of the people is a 51% (and often less) vote... which leaves the possibility of at least 49% disgruntled.

As to his degree... I very much doubt that your views that he got his degree because of his daddy hold much water. In fact, I think it preposterous. In that little paragraph you are summing up each one of the teachers/professors that he had and are saying that every one of them lacked the morals to properly administer their class. While I'm sure that sounds good, but I highly doubt that 40 or so professors would all lack such a defining characteristic for college faculty.

Have you listened to the man speak? I believe speech is a prerequisite in any degree program now and I will GUARANTTEE he would fail it at any community college in America.

 

[Eggs]

Up North? In the South? West? Where exactly are you speaking of? I hate to say it but standards change. To your Yank ears his tongue is no doubt truly offensive. Ask somebody from the South and they might not be so quick to judge a mans intelligence based on his tongue. While I'm sure that Speech is a prerequisite in any college degree... you're speaking about a man thats been out of college for a hell of a long time.

I took speech in High School, and I didn't take speech in College until for 6 years. Hence, my abilities degraded quite a bit in that time. Am I saying that Bush was a veritable Shakespear? No, but I am saying that its silly to judge his current performance as being attributable to speech class that he probably took 25-35 years previously. Besides, speech is one class. To get your undergrad you need at least 39 other classes. When I was in High School English was always a straight A no problem kinda thing. No I find myself getting Bs in English and straight As in all my 400 level courses. Calling me an idiot because I obtained a B in that class instead of an A would be a rather shoddy attempt at judgement.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Originally posted by Eggs
While I'm sure that Speech is a prerequisite in any college degree... you're speaking about a man thats been out of college for a hell of a long time.

You've got to be kidding, he did way too much coke in college to retain anything.

Seriously though. If he went to Harvard, I doubt they would let him slide through speech, regardless of where he is from. Plus, I cannot remember, but I think if you fail a class at Harvard, you can pretty much guarantee that you get put on Academic Probation and that would be if you were priviliged enought not to get kicked out. Also, pronunciation is something you learn in grammar school, not college. I know many people who graduated college as many years ago as bush, and they seem alot more intelligent than him.

Oh yeah, and Yale and Harvard are both in the North, so there goes that theory.

 

[Eggs]

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
You've got to be kidding, he did way too much coke in college to retain anything.

So, if you do something wrong should we hold it against you for the rest of your life? Tell me about your past and I'll try and make a quick judgement on whether you are capable of ethically treating the matter that you deal with at work each day. Or you could just leave it be and say people make mistakes. Did you bitch when Billy smoked a little weed?

Seriously though. If he went to Harvard, I doubt they would let him slide through speech, regardless of where he is from. Plus, I cannot remember, but I think if you fail a class at Harvard, you can pretty much guarantee that you get put on Academic Probation and that would be if you were priviliged enought not to get kicked out. Also, pronunciation is something you learn in grammar school, not college. I know many people who graduated college as many years ago as bush, and they seem alot more intelligent than him.

I'm not quite sure what point you are making with this Dale, you are a bit controdictory. So Bush went to Harvard... you're saying they wouldnt have just let him slide. But then you turn around and say that you know people that are alot more intelligent than he is. So? Steven Hawking looks like a cripple in a wheelchair that couldnt possibly accomplish shit... and yet he is one of the greatest minds in Physics of our century. I'm certainly not comparing the two, but I have to say I believe those judgements you are making are better served at determining whether someone had corn the night before by examining a stool than judging the quality of a person.

Oh yeah, and Yale and Harvard are both in the North, so there goes that theory.

I lived in the North for a long time. Half my life I spent in the Fiji Islands. Some people say I have a weird accent, some people say I have a Brittish accent sometimes, some people say that I dont really have an accent. So what exactly does that mean to you Dale? Is my intelligence in any way represented by my ability to speak... and speak with an accent that you accept at that. I had a speech impediment when I was a kid, does that mean I'm a fucking retard? Come on... lets just get to the root of it. You disagree with him and what he is doing as president and therefore you instinctively look for things to try and discredit him. Its no big deal, everyone does it. But realize thats what it is... you could as well be one of the villagers in "The Search for the Holy Grail". Witch or not, whatever he does you will find a reason to chuck Bush in some water and if he floats, burn his ass

 

[maniclion]

So the mafia will run the porn industry once again, way to go give them something else to make billions of untaxed money. Then of course the government will need a new staff to regulate, investigate and prosecute. So who gets the raw end of this deal, the comparison here might be George Bush = Al Capone

 

[Dale Mabry]

My point is that Yale and Harvard are supposedly respectable institutions and if he was not given privilege at either then he is an embarassment to both places and I have lost alot of respect for what either institution has to offer. His accent has nothing to do with it, I actually don't really hear one from him.

I have no problem with him having done Coke, I just think it's funny how he pushes a religious agenda with his checkered past. My agenda is far from religious so I am not a hypocrite in that respect and, thusly, can do whatever I want.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

geez...get a life
if you have so much time to post about this
you could have eaten a sandwich instead...lol

 

[Eggs]

Once again, somebody that never lived in your life time. Your comparison therefore lacks luster. Bush is the president that was voted in by the people. You live in a Democracy... so sometimes you get screwed. If your party had won, their dude would be pimping what he believed to be right for the US.

I'm not sure who I want to win the next election. I'm neither a Democrat nor Republican. What I am however is able to step beyond the bullshit of trying to throw stones at one person to suit my own beliefs. We're all a product of conditioning... but that doesnt mean we cant think rationally about a subject. I suggest you look at both partners and attempt to do it in a logical manner.

Calling names and trying to align the political figures of today with yesterdays villains is amusing, but lacking in any merit.

 

[Eggs]

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
My point is that Yale and Harvard are supposedly respectable institutions and if he was not given privilege at either then he is an embarassment to both places and I have lost alot of respect for what either institution has to offer. His accent has nothing to do with it, I actually don't really hear one from him.

Then why are we bringing his speech into play? There are plenty of people that are incredibly intelligent that are not the best speakers around. He isnt a great speaker by any stretch of the imagination, but I hardly think that is indicative of a lack of intelligence.

I have no problem with him having done Coke, I just think it's funny how he pushes a religious agenda with his checkered past. My agenda is far from religious so I am not a hypocrite in that respect and, thusly, can do whatever I want.

Then you know little about religion. Ones past does not doom one to forever be unable to make moral choices. If you are one day a parent Dale, will you allow your kids to do everything that you've done without restriction? What gives you the right to do so? Perhaps you will answer that no you wont... in which case, your children will seriously lack boundaries in life. If Georgey were doing coke now I'd have a problem with that. However, if a person changes and betters themself I can hold nothing but respect for the actions they have taken. When one considers rising aboves ones circumstances, the idea is not simply limited to monetary value

 

[Dale Mabry]

We are obviously not going to agree on his education. The fact is I think he is an embarassment to these institutions and you don't, neither one of us are going to change our minds. BUT, neither you nor I know whether he received privilige or not.

Personally, I intend to give my children all the information they need to make an informed decision on their own, I would be a hypocrite otherwise.

 

[Vieope]

Today the psychologists don´t accept the idea of just one intelligence.
Maybe he is academic bright but he can be "socially" dumb. So he doesn´t know that some people need porn.

 

[Eggs]

I dont see Bush as having specially benefitted from those institutions either, and I have to say that reflects poorly on them. Regardless, for us to criticise them and name them as inept and corrupt is a bit outside of our current range of abilities given our data.

I want my kids to be informed too. However, if I catch my kid doing a line on the kitchen table I'm not so sure I'm going to sit idly by and let them go deeper into it. Once, I'll be sufficed to find something appropriate to their stupidity... twice, I take the matters of making that decision out of their hands, as they are not capable of rationally doing so.

We're beating around the bush Dale

Lets agree to disagree.