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Gun Politics, Gun control and such
- Thread starter jagbender
- Start date
jagbender
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[h=1]Unverified Shutdownmegeddon rumor: FBI NICS background checks system is next[/h]
This would presumably mean that if you don?t have a concealed carry permit, you aren?t buying a gun for the duration of any NICS shutdown.
Again, this is an unverified rumor, but seems important enough to keep on the radar.
Tags: Background Checks, Barack Obama, NICS
- OCTOBER 9, 2013 AT 7:14 PM
- BOB OWENS
- 43 COMMENTS
This would presumably mean that if you don?t have a concealed carry permit, you aren?t buying a gun for the duration of any NICS shutdown.
Again, this is an unverified rumor, but seems important enough to keep on the radar.
Tags: Background Checks, Barack Obama, NICS
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ SAYS IT?S ?UNFAIR? TO ASK ABOUT OBAMACARE NUMBERS RIGHT NOW[/h]Oct. 9, 2013 3:27pm Becket Adams
[h=3]Related:[/h]
Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) was apparently caught off-guard Wednesday when MSNBC?s Thomas Roberts questioned her about the current number of Americans who have enrolled in Obamacare.
Roberts played a portion of comedian Jon Stewart?s interview with Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius in which Stewart criticized the White House for failing to ensure that the new health care exchanges would be operational in time.
?How would you respond to the messaging and the criticism that there has been about the rollout of Obamacare?? Roberts asked Wasserman Schultz. ?Even though the government is not running the actual insurance exchanges, it is running the rollout and should be able to provide every curious American about the data ? and certainly journalists about the data ? of how many people are actually signing up accessing Obamacare. So, where is that number??
The Florida congresswoman said the question was ?unfair.?
?We?re eight days in and to be insisting on data being produced day by day for a six-month enrollment program, that ? is a little bit unfair.?
She also said that the servers handling the Obamacare exchanges were designed to deal with only 50,000 visitors per day, but that there have been an average of 250,000 visitors per day ? which is actually good news because it means people are eager to enroll.
?So, the analogy that I?ve used repeatedly is that the Republicans, because they don?t like their kitchen redesign, are trying to burn their house down,? she said.
?They don?t even acknowledge or agree that everyone should have access in America to quality, affordable health care. That is the rub,? she added. ?And they don?t accept that President Obama was re-elected last November.?
Roberts wrapped up the interview quickly, perhaps saving the Florida congresswoman from further confusing the issue:
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[*=left]Debbie Wasserman Schultz,
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Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) was apparently caught off-guard Wednesday when MSNBC?s Thomas Roberts questioned her about the current number of Americans who have enrolled in Obamacare.
Roberts played a portion of comedian Jon Stewart?s interview with Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius in which Stewart criticized the White House for failing to ensure that the new health care exchanges would be operational in time.
?How would you respond to the messaging and the criticism that there has been about the rollout of Obamacare?? Roberts asked Wasserman Schultz. ?Even though the government is not running the actual insurance exchanges, it is running the rollout and should be able to provide every curious American about the data ? and certainly journalists about the data ? of how many people are actually signing up accessing Obamacare. So, where is that number??
The Florida congresswoman said the question was ?unfair.?
?We?re eight days in and to be insisting on data being produced day by day for a six-month enrollment program, that ? is a little bit unfair.?
She also said that the servers handling the Obamacare exchanges were designed to deal with only 50,000 visitors per day, but that there have been an average of 250,000 visitors per day ? which is actually good news because it means people are eager to enroll.
?So, the analogy that I?ve used repeatedly is that the Republicans, because they don?t like their kitchen redesign, are trying to burn their house down,? she said.
?They don?t even acknowledge or agree that everyone should have access in America to quality, affordable health care. That is the rub,? she added. ?And they don?t accept that President Obama was re-elected last November.?
Roberts wrapped up the interview quickly, perhaps saving the Florida congresswoman from further confusing the issue:
Wasserman Schultz?s non-answers would appear to show that Democrats have yet to figure out how to explain the glitchy Obamacare exchange websites and the confusion over the number of health care enrollees.?
updated info
Boys punished for firing airsoft guns
Has zero tolerance gone too far?
By Andy Fox
- Updated: Thursday, September 26, 2013, 8:34 PM EDT
- Published: Monday, September 23, 2013, 10:37 AM EDT
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(1/18)Andy Fox reports on zero tolerance controversy
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(2/18)VB School Board Chairman releases statement on airsoft gun incident
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(3/18)VB 7th graders suspended for using airsoft guns
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(4/18)Andy Fox reports on 7th graders suspended for airsoft gun use
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(5/18)Viewer feedback to Andy Fox's zero tolerance report
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(6/18)Andy Fox reports on zero tolerance incident at VB middle school
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(7/18)Andy Fox reports on VB 7th grader facing expulsion
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(8/18)Andy Fox reports on zero gun tolerance at VB schools
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(9/18)Is "Zero tolerance" breaking new boundaries?
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[*=center](15/18)Aidan Clark and his dad, Tim. Photo by WAVY/Andy Fox
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VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY) - To view Reporter Andy Fox's follow-up report on this story,click here.
Three Virginia Beach seventh graders learned their fates Tuesday morning when they were suspended for shooting airsoft guns.
During a hearing with a disciplinary committee Tuesday morning, Aidan Clark, Khalid Caraballo and a third friend were given long-term suspensions in a unanimous vote. The suspensions will last until June, but a hearing will be held January 27 to determine if they will be allowed back in school sooner.
The students' parents initially told WAVY News' Andy Fox their children were expelled, but when Fox looked at the official letter from the school, he found they were long-term suspensions and not expulsions, as was recommended by the school's principal. Their parents still feel as though their children were expelled.
Document: Letter from school officials to boys' parents
?I?m more than angry ? it?s like an expulsion-suspension,? said Tim Clark, Aidan's father.
Like thousands of others in Hampton Roads, Caraballo and Clark play with airsoft guns. The boys were suspended because they shot two other friends who were with them while playing with the guns as they waited for the school bus September 12.
The two seventh graders say they never went to the bus stop with the guns; they fired the airsoft guns while on Caraballo's private property.
Aidan?s father, Tim Clark, told WAVY.com what happened next lacks commons sense. The children were suspended for possession, handling and use of a firearm. On Tuesday, that offense was changed by school officials to possession, handling and use of an airsoft gun.
Khalid's mother, Solangel Caraballo, thinks it is ridiculous the Virginia Beach City Public School System suspended her 13-year-old son and his friends because they were firing a spring-driven airsoft gun on the Caraballo's private property.
"My son is my private property," she said. "He does not become the school's property until he goes to the bus stop, gets on the bus, and goes to school."
The bus stop in question is 70 yards from the Caraballo's front yard.
Solangel Caraballo was not at home when this incident occurred. She was taking her younger son to a Head Start class. She left her 16-year -old daughter in charge.
This story that addresses Zero Tolerance extending to private property began on Sept. 9 with a 911 call from a concerned citizen.
Audio: 911 call on Sept. 9
A neighbor saw Khalid shooting the airsoft gun in his front yard three days before the incident that got the boys in trouble. She told the dispatcher, "He is pointing the gun, and it looks like there's a target in a tree in his front yard".
WAVY.com located the 911 caller and spoke to her. She confirmed Khalid was taking target practice using a zombie hunter airsoft gun to kill the zombies. There was also a net behind the target to catch the plastic pellets.
The caller also knew the gun wasn't real and said so: "This is not a real one, but it makes people uncomfortable. I know that it makes me [uncomfortable], as a mom, to see a boy pointing a gun," she told the 911 dispatcher.
The airsoft guns are designed to be non-lethal. Plastic pellets are used, and not copper bb's.
Ironically, that 911 caller's son was playing with Khalid and Aidan in the Caraballo front yard on September 12 -- the incident that got the boys in trouble. There were six children playing in an airsoft gun war.
"We see the bus come. We put the gun down. We did not take the airsoft gun to the bus stop. We did not take the gun to school," Khalid explained.
Aidan admits shooting the 911 caller's son in the arm, and Khalid admits shooting another friend in the back.
"He knew we had the airsoft gun. He knew we were playing. He knew people were getting shot. We were shooting at the tree, but he still came, and even after he was shot, he still played," Aidan said, referring to the son of the 911 caller.
However, a second 911 call from a different caller on Sept. 12 is what schools officials say led to the investigation and then suspensions. WAVY.com was unaware of the second 911 call on Monday, during our first report of the incident. On Tuesday, Virginia Beach City Public Schools said in a Facebook post that WAVY "chose not to air a 911 call from September 12 ... despite being made aware of its existence by police."
Audio: 911 call on Sept. 12
Virginia Beach Police did not mention the second 911 call when WAVY's Andy Fox called the department before his report on Monday.
Still, the second 911 call further confirms Khalid Caraballo did not leave his private property during the September 12 incident.
" ... the white child appeared to have a gun, and he was chasing the other child ... when he saw me he kind of stuck it in his pants. I don't know if it was a toy or if they were playing," said the 911 caller in the Sept. 12 call.
The caller was speaking about 12-year-old Aidan Clark, who admits he ran off Caraballo's property into the street in front of Khalid's house.
"I ran and chased him. I aimed to shoot, and I saw a car on the right," Clark said.
"He looked directly at me and the black child kept on running," the 911 caller said.
Aidan was chasing a third child, who is African American and who was also suspended. Aidan says Khalid never left his property and none of the boys shot the guns while in the street.
WAVY.com reached out to the principal of Larkspur Middle School, Matthew Delaney. In a letter obtained by WAVY.com Delaney said his investigation found the "children were firing pellet guns at each other, and at people near the bus stop." The letter from Delaney says one child ?was only 10 feet from the bus stop, and ran from the shots being fired, but was still hit."
Khalid insists all shots fired were on his private property. The three children firing the guns were suspended. The three others who did not fire the guns were not suspended.
Khalid thinks the suspensions are unfair: "Yes, it's unfair because we were in our yard. This had nothing to do with school. I didn't have anything at school at anytime."
The Virginia Beach City Code isn't clear, and goes back and forth. It reads no person "shall ... discharge any firearm, spring-propelled rifle or pistol ... within ... 150 yards of any building." Then it reads "no person shall use a pneumatic gun except at approved shooting ranges or within private property."
Solangel says, "That is exactly my point. It is private property."
However, the Code also requires shooting with "permission of the owner." In this case, the parent is the owner, and she did not give her son, Khalid, permission to fire the gun. He disobeyed her.
"How dare he disobey me, but this is a home issue. It's not a school issue, and it won't happen again. He will never do this again," Solangel said while looking back at Khalid with a stern face.
"I always thought this was a Dad deal, not a school deal," said Tim Clark, Aidan's father. "It was a parental issue not a school issue."
Virginia Beach Police say they do not proactively seek out to enforce this code unless "the juveniles are not exercising reasonable care." Reasonable care is defined as "the gun is discharged in a manner so the projectile is contained on the property by a fence or backstop."
Police are not charging anyone in this case. They would not discuss the specifics of their investigation because the people involved are juveniles.
Khalid said he's concerned for his future with the suspension on his school record.
"It's terrible. I won't get the chance to go to a good college. It's on your school record. The school said I had possession of a firearm. They aren't going to ask me any questions. They are going to think it was a real gun, and I was trying to hurt someone. They will say 'oh, we can't accept you.' "
Until the hearing in January, the boys will either attend Renaissance Academy or be homeschooled. Aidan's father said his son will be homeschooled. Caraballo will attend an alternative school.
The discipline committee on Tuesday included three elected school board members: Dottie Holtz, Bobby Melatti and Carolyn Weems. Melatti refused to give a comment to WAVY.com and the two others did not return our calls.
In a Twitter post Tuesday evening, Virginia Beach School Board Chairman Daniel Edwards attached a letter defending the school's disciplinary actions against the boys: "Yet somehow student safety has taken a back seat in the intense media coverage of this case. This is not an example of a public educator overreaching. This was not zero tolerance at all. This was a measured response to a threat to student safety."
Document: Daniel Edwards' letter
In the statement, Edwards also released information about Khalid's previous discipline problems at school. His parents told 10 On Your Side they are upset by that and said they signed a waiver for the school system to talk to WAVY about the airsoft incident only.
The City codes referenced in this case are as follows:
City Code 38-3, primarily section (d) ? Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, it shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any firearm, spring-propelled rifle or pistol, from, on, across or within one hundred fifty (150) yards of any building, dwelling, street, sidewalk, alley, roadway or public land or public place within the city limits.?
And
Section (f) ?No person shall use a pneumatic gun in the area of the city described in (a) above except (i) at approved shooting ranges or (ii) on or within private property with permission of the owner or legal possessor thereof when conducted with reasonable care to prevent a projectile from crossing the bounds of the property. For purposes of this subsection, "pneumatic gun" means any implement designed as a gun that will expel a BB or a pellet by action of pneumatic pressure, including but not limited to paintball guns. Further, for the purpose of this subsection "reasonable care" means that the pneumatic gun is discharged in a manner so the projectile is contained on the property by a backstop, earthen embankment or fence. The discharge of projectiles across or over the bounds of the property shall create the rebuttable presumption that the use of the pneumatic gun was not conducted with reasonable care and shall constitute a Class 3 misdemeanor. ?
Virginia Beach Police Sergeant Adam Bernstein released the following statement with regards to this incident:
We understand that a number of juveniles possess air soft guns and have ?airsoft gun? wars with each other, but as it relates to the city code referenced above, they are in violation of the code if the juveniles are not exercising ?reasonable care?. Also keep in mind that this is not something that we proactively seek out to enforce. If we receive a complaint (such as in the case for which you are doing the story on), we will investigate the call for service and enforce it appropriately, i.e. warning or prosecution. We want to stress to the parents of the juveniles and the operators of these type of ?pneumatic guns? that they need to be handled responsibly and with reasonable care to ensure that the projectile is properly contained.
WAVY.com wants to know what you think about the school's decision to suspend the students. Leave your comments below.
that is stupid. I got suspended for a week from school for bringing a dark/pellet gun to school that looked JUST like a 9mm and could have caused great harm. Brought it to trade for video games but got caught showing it off. How do you do that for kids playing with toys. It is funny how pussified America is coming. We use to get into fights at our bus stop and our bus driver would just say knock this shit off handle it out of school hours.
as for giving up my guns honestly i think i would. I wont risk the potential risk to my family because the gov't knows i have guns but refuse. However, they wont get my entire gun just what is required to register ie lower piece of an AR. We own 20 80% lowers that do not require a registration that we would finish in our CNC. It would be shitty to lose my pistols but reality if it came down to red flagging my family i would hand them over. It is easy to say fuck them over my dead body but last thing i want is the gov't in my business more then they are. If it came down to it just start reporting them stolen and hide them 
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]Open carriers bring rifles, signs to state capitol. Police request they leave signs behind.[/h]
Tags: Michigan, open carry
- OCTOBER 10, 2013 AT 1:20 PM
- BOB OWENS
- 94 COMMENTS
Second Amendment advocates exercised their legal right to carry pistols and rifles into the Michigan Capitol on Wednesday, but they had to leave their signs ? and some might argue, their First Amendment rights ? at the door.
Michigan Capitol Committee rules prohibit hand-carried and hand-stick signs in the 135-year-old building due to concerns that they could accidentally scratch the decorative paint or be dropped from upper floors onto unsuspecting tourists on the rotunda floor below.
Michigan State Police who work at the building regularly enforce the sign rule, but there is no rule or law preventing gun owners from carrying their weapons into the Capitol.
Michigan Capitol Committee rules prohibit hand-carried and hand-stick signs in the 135-year-old building due to concerns that they could accidentally scratch the decorative paint or be dropped from upper floors onto unsuspecting tourists on the rotunda floor below.
Michigan State Police who work at the building regularly enforce the sign rule, but there is no rule or law preventing gun owners from carrying their weapons into the Capitol.
Tags: Michigan, open carry
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]FL Lawmakers Seek to Make Self-Defenders Vulnerable to Lawsuits[/h]
Drawn together in the aftermath of the George Zimmerman trial with the claimed mission of ?improving? Florida?s Stand Your Ground law (?776.013(3). Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm), these lawmakers instead have set their sights on Florida?s Self-Defense Immunity law (?776.032. Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.)
Florida?s Self-Defense Immunity statute provides that a person who lawfully uses force in self-defense shall be immune from criminal and civil liability. This immunity can be determined either pre-trial in a self-defense immunity hearing (often mistakenly referred to as a ?Stand Your Ground? hearing) or during the trial itself. To win on this issue the person seeking immunity must be found to have acted in lawful self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence (meaning, more likely than not).
Importantly, this immunity statute comes with real teeth. If a civil suit is brought against a defender, and he is later found to have acted in lawful self-defense, the court is required?no discretion?to award the defender attorney?s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of that suit. Importantly, this monetary award would be paid for by the party bringing the law suit, not by the taxpayers of Florida. The statute therefore provides a powerful disincentive to someone bringing suit against someone who apparently acted in lawful self-defense.
Without this immunity statute a defender can easily be placed at great peril of economic destruction. Normally in a civil suit the jury is allowed to apportion liability between the parties. If a defender who successfully defended himself against a vicious criminal attack is later sued by his attacker (or the attacker?s survivors) for, say, $10 million, the jury might determine the defender is merely 10% at fault. In that case, however, the defender, however lawful his use of force in self-defense may have been, must not still cough up 10% of the damages sued for?in our hypothetical that would amount to a cool $1 million. The criminal aggressor?s lawyer would typically retain one-third of that amount for the legal fee, and more, for their overhead).
Florida?s self-defense immunity statute prevents this kind of secondary attack by criminal aggressors in the civil courts.
Given the vast amount of moneys being kept out of the reach of plaintiff?s lawyers by the Self-Defense Immunity statute it?s not hard to understand why there might be powerful forces working to cut that law. Fortunately, both Stand Your Ground and Self-Defense Immunity are hugely popular among the non-criminal demographic in Florida, and there is little expectation that any attempt to gut either statute will find much footing in either the State House or Senate, beyond the confines of this purposely-organized committee.
Tags: Anti-Gun Hysteria, George Zimmerman, Self Defense
- OCTOBER 10, 2013 AT 1:53 PM
- ANDREW BRANCA
- 0 COMMENTS
Drawn together in the aftermath of the George Zimmerman trial with the claimed mission of ?improving? Florida?s Stand Your Ground law (?776.013(3). Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm), these lawmakers instead have set their sights on Florida?s Self-Defense Immunity law (?776.032. Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.)
Florida?s Self-Defense Immunity statute provides that a person who lawfully uses force in self-defense shall be immune from criminal and civil liability. This immunity can be determined either pre-trial in a self-defense immunity hearing (often mistakenly referred to as a ?Stand Your Ground? hearing) or during the trial itself. To win on this issue the person seeking immunity must be found to have acted in lawful self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence (meaning, more likely than not).
Importantly, this immunity statute comes with real teeth. If a civil suit is brought against a defender, and he is later found to have acted in lawful self-defense, the court is required?no discretion?to award the defender attorney?s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of that suit. Importantly, this monetary award would be paid for by the party bringing the law suit, not by the taxpayers of Florida. The statute therefore provides a powerful disincentive to someone bringing suit against someone who apparently acted in lawful self-defense.
Without this immunity statute a defender can easily be placed at great peril of economic destruction. Normally in a civil suit the jury is allowed to apportion liability between the parties. If a defender who successfully defended himself against a vicious criminal attack is later sued by his attacker (or the attacker?s survivors) for, say, $10 million, the jury might determine the defender is merely 10% at fault. In that case, however, the defender, however lawful his use of force in self-defense may have been, must not still cough up 10% of the damages sued for?in our hypothetical that would amount to a cool $1 million. The criminal aggressor?s lawyer would typically retain one-third of that amount for the legal fee, and more, for their overhead).
Florida?s self-defense immunity statute prevents this kind of secondary attack by criminal aggressors in the civil courts.
Given the vast amount of moneys being kept out of the reach of plaintiff?s lawyers by the Self-Defense Immunity statute it?s not hard to understand why there might be powerful forces working to cut that law. Fortunately, both Stand Your Ground and Self-Defense Immunity are hugely popular among the non-criminal demographic in Florida, and there is little expectation that any attempt to gut either statute will find much footing in either the State House or Senate, beyond the confines of this purposely-organized committee.
Tags: Anti-Gun Hysteria, George Zimmerman, Self Defense
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]Are you three times more likely to be murdered by a cop than a concealed carrier?[/h]
It doesn?t help that the claim is backed by shoddy data.
But did I mention that that data dramatically overstates how often concealed carry permit holders used their concealed handguns to commit acts of violence, and likely underestimates the amount of time that the ?blue wall of silence? lets a bad cop get away with murder?
The author?s conclusion isn?t really all that surprising, once you think about they dynamics in play.
Concealed carriers are more law-abiding that the average citizen; they must be in order to pass the intensive background checks that are performed before permit holders get their permits.
Once a concealed carrier has his or her permit and begins to carry concealed, two things happen because of the added responsibility they?ve voluntarily taken on.
The first is that they become more situationally aware. They are more cognizant of what is going on around them, and less likely to put themselves in situations that may compromise their safety or the safety of those around them.
The second is that concealed carriers become much more tolerant of others, as they wish to avoid confrontation. Armed citizens are very well aware of the fact that they carry a lethal weapon, and that makes them very aware of the responsibility they carry. Concealed carriers tend to be much more courteous as a result of their decision to go armed.
Law enforcement officers, on the other hand, have a different dynamic in play. Once the initial background checks are complete and the they are awarded their badge and gun, they become part of a insular fraternity that protects their own, and yes, tends to give other members of that fraternity preferential treatment.
Unfortunately, this sometimes leads to the belief among some law enforcement officers that they are above the laws that they sworn to protect, which was apparently the situation when Mayors Against Illegal Guns (MAIG) founder Michael Bloomberg?s bodyguard though it was acceptable to shoot a love rival.
This should not be misconstrued to claim that you should be afraid of law enforcement officers; on the contrary, it should simply instill faith in your fellow citizens and their sincere desire to keep themselves and those around them safe.
Tags: Concealed Carry
- OCTOBER 10, 2013 AT 11:42 AM
- BOB OWENS
- 4 COMMENTS
It doesn?t help that the claim is backed by shoddy data.
But did I mention that that data dramatically overstates how often concealed carry permit holders used their concealed handguns to commit acts of violence, and likely underestimates the amount of time that the ?blue wall of silence? lets a bad cop get away with murder?
The author?s conclusion isn?t really all that surprising, once you think about they dynamics in play.
Concealed carriers are more law-abiding that the average citizen; they must be in order to pass the intensive background checks that are performed before permit holders get their permits.
Once a concealed carrier has his or her permit and begins to carry concealed, two things happen because of the added responsibility they?ve voluntarily taken on.
The first is that they become more situationally aware. They are more cognizant of what is going on around them, and less likely to put themselves in situations that may compromise their safety or the safety of those around them.
The second is that concealed carriers become much more tolerant of others, as they wish to avoid confrontation. Armed citizens are very well aware of the fact that they carry a lethal weapon, and that makes them very aware of the responsibility they carry. Concealed carriers tend to be much more courteous as a result of their decision to go armed.
Law enforcement officers, on the other hand, have a different dynamic in play. Once the initial background checks are complete and the they are awarded their badge and gun, they become part of a insular fraternity that protects their own, and yes, tends to give other members of that fraternity preferential treatment.
Unfortunately, this sometimes leads to the belief among some law enforcement officers that they are above the laws that they sworn to protect, which was apparently the situation when Mayors Against Illegal Guns (MAIG) founder Michael Bloomberg?s bodyguard though it was acceptable to shoot a love rival.
This should not be misconstrued to claim that you should be afraid of law enforcement officers; on the contrary, it should simply instill faith in your fellow citizens and their sincere desire to keep themselves and those around them safe.
Tags: Concealed Carry
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]Gunman?s wife complains over open carry law because her husband attempted to kill another man? and failed[/h]
Like his widow, I suspect that William Brown never knew Mississippi had passed an open carry law, and there isn?t even any evidence presented in the story that suggests that either man legally open-carried that day.
In all likelihood, both men illegally carried concealed weapons into the confrontation, something that the account fails to mention.
Free Press reporter R.L. Nave?what an appropriate name?somehow skips over all these pertinent facts in order to bash a law that ultimately has nothing to do with with William Jackson?s death.
And the media wonders why they have so little credibility?
- OCTOBER 10, 2013 AT 9:50 AM
- BOB OWENS
- 66 COMMENTS
DeUndra Brown suspects the law may also have the effect of giving police an excuse to not investigate crimes that are more complicated to untangle. JPD has said William Brown?s death remains under investigation, but at the time of the shooting, JPD Assistant Chief Lee Vance told a TV reporter that police did not make an arrest because witnesses said Brown initiated a gun battle.
?He shot at the other guy first. Apparently he missed, then the other guy returned fire striking him about 12 times. It?s not for me to judge the amount of rounds that were fired. I don?t know if the amount of times he fired his weapon is of any circumstance at this point,? Vance told WLBT-TV?s Cheryl Lasseter.
Perhaps if her husband hadn?t attempted to kill another man, he might still be alive??He shot at the other guy first. Apparently he missed, then the other guy returned fire striking him about 12 times. It?s not for me to judge the amount of rounds that were fired. I don?t know if the amount of times he fired his weapon is of any circumstance at this point,? Vance told WLBT-TV?s Cheryl Lasseter.
Like his widow, I suspect that William Brown never knew Mississippi had passed an open carry law, and there isn?t even any evidence presented in the story that suggests that either man legally open-carried that day.
In all likelihood, both men illegally carried concealed weapons into the confrontation, something that the account fails to mention.
Free Press reporter R.L. Nave?what an appropriate name?somehow skips over all these pertinent facts in order to bash a law that ultimately has nothing to do with with William Jackson?s death.
And the media wonders why they have so little credibility?
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]Another school district considers arming faculty and staff[/h]
Either is a much better alternative to stopping an active shooter on campus than a duck and cover drill,?bulletproof? whiteboards, or a thin metal sign printed with the empty words, ?gun free zone.?
Tags: Idaho, school safety
- OCTOBER 9, 2013 AT 5:28 PM
- BOB OWENS
- 3 COMMENTS
About three dozen parents, teachers, students and others weighed in on the board chairman?s idea to beef up school security by giving certain staff members access to guns. A little over half said they were in favor of that, or at least serious study of the idea.
?Gun-free zones are a target for criminals. It?s a red flag ? that there will be no return fire,? Maureen Paterson told the Lake Pend Oreille School Board.
School violence is not an abstract notion, George Wentz said. ?This threat is here. We can?t just put our heads in the sand and pretend it?s not here at all,? he said. ?Guns do exist. The problem is the wrong people have them.?
Others told the school trustees they are not comfortable using guns as another layer of school safety.
?Our fears are in the wrong spot here,? said Wayne Wasserburger, who suggested the district could do more to protect students by teaching them safe driving.
Karl Dye, a parent and gun owner, said he?s discouraged to know Sandpoint has become associated with guns in schools as a result of widespread news coverage of the topic.
?This isn?t what our community is about,? Dye said. ?We can?t protect our kids, we can?t protect ourselves, from every threat that?s out there.?
School Board Chairman Steve Youngdahl launched the discussion two weeks ago when he outlined his proposal to place guns in secure locations inside district schools and train select teachers, administrators and other employees to use them in case of a school shooting.
These sort of precautions seem to be similar to those being incorporated in some other school districts, while yet other districts are going with a more traditional concealed carry route.?Gun-free zones are a target for criminals. It?s a red flag ? that there will be no return fire,? Maureen Paterson told the Lake Pend Oreille School Board.
School violence is not an abstract notion, George Wentz said. ?This threat is here. We can?t just put our heads in the sand and pretend it?s not here at all,? he said. ?Guns do exist. The problem is the wrong people have them.?
Others told the school trustees they are not comfortable using guns as another layer of school safety.
?Our fears are in the wrong spot here,? said Wayne Wasserburger, who suggested the district could do more to protect students by teaching them safe driving.
Karl Dye, a parent and gun owner, said he?s discouraged to know Sandpoint has become associated with guns in schools as a result of widespread news coverage of the topic.
?This isn?t what our community is about,? Dye said. ?We can?t protect our kids, we can?t protect ourselves, from every threat that?s out there.?
School Board Chairman Steve Youngdahl launched the discussion two weeks ago when he outlined his proposal to place guns in secure locations inside district schools and train select teachers, administrators and other employees to use them in case of a school shooting.
Either is a much better alternative to stopping an active shooter on campus than a duck and cover drill,?bulletproof? whiteboards, or a thin metal sign printed with the empty words, ?gun free zone.?
Tags: Idaho, school safety
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]Gun control advocates have a ?high capacity? for ignorance[/h]
That may seem to be a flippant and dismissive question, but it is the legitimate question that they most fear. It is also the reason that they seek to wage their ?war on guns? based upon emotionalism? they cannot hold a reasoned debate, because they don?t know and refuse to learn the subject matter.
In various Internet forums, at public rallies, and in private conversations, I?ve had a chance to both watch and listen to various people campaign for gun control laws. On the number of occasions where I?ve attempted to engage them in substantive dialogue, a similar pathology has emerged.
Gun control is nothing more or less than an argument from ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam.
Put bluntly, they are no more capable of holding a reasoned, rational, and intelligent discussion about firearms and firearms law than they are capable of telling an electrician how to wire a circuit breaker panel. They aren?t stupid people necessarily, they?re just uninformed, under-informed and/or wrongly informed.
A simple example of the ignorance of gun control advocates can be found in the heated discussions concerning metal boxes that are open on one end, with a spring inside them, used to push ammunition.
We call these boxes by their proper name, ?magazines.?
Often times, gun control supporters will call them clips, which are nothing more than a strip of metal. Yes, that is a substantive difference.
If you ask a gun control advocate what a ?standard-capacity magazine? is they will either give you either a dumb look, or one of alarm, as they do not know the answer to this rudimentary question. The better indoctrinated ones (perhaps politicians, or member of the news media) might attempt some sort of double-speak claim that it is a ?non-high-capacity magazine.?
This is also factually wrong.
Someone familiar with firearms will answer by telling you that a standard-capacity magazine is the number of cartridges that the a gun designer intended for a specific firearm magazine to use, and that standard capacity varies from one firearm to another.
The standard-capacity magazine for a Glock 17 is 17 rounds. The standard capacity magazine for a FN Five-seveN pistol is 20 rounds. The standard-capacity magazine of both the AK-47 and the modern AR-15 is 30-rounds. Standard capacity varies by make and model.
Bizarrely (and thanks entirely to gun control advocates) there are now two kinds of ?high capacity? magazines, and they are antonyms.
There are those magazines designed to fit the standard magazine well of a firearm and provide more ammunition than the standard-capacity magazines (and thus higher cartridge counts than would normally be encountered). These are real high capacity magazines, and they hold more cartridges than standard-capacity magazines. A 75-round drum for an AK-47 (like the one Dianne Feinstein is pointing at her supporters with her finger on the trigger, the safety off, the bolt closed, and the 75-round drum in place) is a real high capacity magazine, as it is larger than the standard-capacity 30-round magazine.
There is also politically-created ?high-capacity? magazine, where politicians?ignorant gun control advocates every one?have arbitrarily decided that a number of cartridges below the standard capacity of a magazine is ?enough,? and even one bullet more than their arbitrarily designed figure is ?high-capacity,? even when that capacity is still lower than that of standard-capacity magazines.
In this politically-created definition of what constitutes ?high-capacity,? anti-gun politicians can?t even be consistently arbitrary, with ?high capacity? meaning 7 rounds in New York, 10 rounds in several other states, and 15 in Colorado.
If it sounds incredibly insane to artificially declare that the capacity of something must be smaller than what it actually is under normal circumstances, that is because such capricious it is out deranged.
But what else would you expect? Gun control advocates are serially ignorant of guns, and are therefore incapable of making rational, intelligent decisions regarding them.
- OCTOBER 9, 2013 AT 5:11 PM
- BOB OWENS
- 13 COMMENTS
That may seem to be a flippant and dismissive question, but it is the legitimate question that they most fear. It is also the reason that they seek to wage their ?war on guns? based upon emotionalism? they cannot hold a reasoned debate, because they don?t know and refuse to learn the subject matter.
In various Internet forums, at public rallies, and in private conversations, I?ve had a chance to both watch and listen to various people campaign for gun control laws. On the number of occasions where I?ve attempted to engage them in substantive dialogue, a similar pathology has emerged.
- Most have no personal experience using firearms.
- They ignorantly think firearms are designed ?only to kill,? and can?t think of a legitimate use for them outside of killing.
- Their exposure to firearms is limited to what they?ve seen in the mass media, in both the news and entertainment.
- They are historically and culturally ignorant of the role of firearms in society.
- They are unaware that a significant number (nearly half) of Americans own firearms, and that millions of Americans belong to ?the gun culture,? and that this subculture of society is far more law-abiding than average.
- They are ignorant of how firearms function, and of the differences between various kinds of firearms.
Gun control is nothing more or less than an argument from ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam.
Put bluntly, they are no more capable of holding a reasoned, rational, and intelligent discussion about firearms and firearms law than they are capable of telling an electrician how to wire a circuit breaker panel. They aren?t stupid people necessarily, they?re just uninformed, under-informed and/or wrongly informed.
A simple example of the ignorance of gun control advocates can be found in the heated discussions concerning metal boxes that are open on one end, with a spring inside them, used to push ammunition.
We call these boxes by their proper name, ?magazines.?
Often times, gun control supporters will call them clips, which are nothing more than a strip of metal. Yes, that is a substantive difference.
If you ask a gun control advocate what a ?standard-capacity magazine? is they will either give you either a dumb look, or one of alarm, as they do not know the answer to this rudimentary question. The better indoctrinated ones (perhaps politicians, or member of the news media) might attempt some sort of double-speak claim that it is a ?non-high-capacity magazine.?
This is also factually wrong.
Someone familiar with firearms will answer by telling you that a standard-capacity magazine is the number of cartridges that the a gun designer intended for a specific firearm magazine to use, and that standard capacity varies from one firearm to another.
The standard-capacity magazine for a Glock 17 is 17 rounds. The standard capacity magazine for a FN Five-seveN pistol is 20 rounds. The standard-capacity magazine of both the AK-47 and the modern AR-15 is 30-rounds. Standard capacity varies by make and model.
Bizarrely (and thanks entirely to gun control advocates) there are now two kinds of ?high capacity? magazines, and they are antonyms.
There are those magazines designed to fit the standard magazine well of a firearm and provide more ammunition than the standard-capacity magazines (and thus higher cartridge counts than would normally be encountered). These are real high capacity magazines, and they hold more cartridges than standard-capacity magazines. A 75-round drum for an AK-47 (like the one Dianne Feinstein is pointing at her supporters with her finger on the trigger, the safety off, the bolt closed, and the 75-round drum in place) is a real high capacity magazine, as it is larger than the standard-capacity 30-round magazine.
In this politically-created definition of what constitutes ?high-capacity,? anti-gun politicians can?t even be consistently arbitrary, with ?high capacity? meaning 7 rounds in New York, 10 rounds in several other states, and 15 in Colorado.
If it sounds incredibly insane to artificially declare that the capacity of something must be smaller than what it actually is under normal circumstances, that is because such capricious it is out deranged.
But what else would you expect? Gun control advocates are serially ignorant of guns, and are therefore incapable of making rational, intelligent decisions regarding them.
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]TEXAS SCHOOL DISTRICT?S STEELY-EYED WARNING SIGN MAY MAKE CRIMINALS THINK TWICE[/h]Oct. 14, 2013 7:00pm Dave Urbanski
[h=3]Related:[/h]
One school district in the Amarillo, Texas, area isn?t messing around when it comes to potential intruders.
The Shamrock Independent School District has added two signs warning troublemakers that staff members are armed and may use force to protect its 450 students.
In addition, the district has installed 30 security cameras as well as an intercom system and bulletproof windows.
According to KHOU-TV in Houston, most parents are happy with the stepped-up security.
Here?s a report from KHOU-TV:
Fri Oct 11 20:54:42 PDT 2013
[h=2]TEXAS SCHOOL BOOSTS SECURITY WITH CONTROVERSIAL SIGNS[/h]An Amarillo area school district has stepped up security and they want people to know about it. view full article
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One school district in the Amarillo, Texas, area isn?t messing around when it comes to potential intruders.
The Shamrock Independent School District has added two signs warning troublemakers that staff members are armed and may use force to protect its 450 students.
(Credit: KHOU-TV)
(Credit: KHOU-TV)
(Credit: KHOU-TV)
According to KHOU-TV in Houston, most parents are happy with the stepped-up security.
Here?s a report from KHOU-TV:
Fri Oct 11 20:54:42 PDT 2013
[h=2]TEXAS SCHOOL BOOSTS SECURITY WITH CONTROVERSIAL SIGNS[/h]An Amarillo area school district has stepped up security and they want people to know about it. view full article
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]TED CRUZ EXPLAINS TO TRAYVON MARTIN?S MOTHER HOW ?STAND YOUR GROUND? LAWS HELP PROTECT THE BLACK COMMUNITY[/h]Oct. 29, 2013 6:17pm Jason Howerton
[h=3]Related:[/h]
Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) came face-to-face with Sybrina Fulton, the mother of Trayvon Martin, on Capitol Hill during a Tuesday hearing on ?Stand Your Ground? laws. After offering his condolences to Fulton, Cruz told the mother that the self-defense laws are not racist because they help blacks as much as whites, if not more.
Cruz also explained that, despite some efforts to exploit Martin?s death, George Zimmerman?s defense team never used Stand Your Ground laws as a defense in the murder trial.
?We know that some in our political process have a desire to exploit that tragic, violent incident for agendas that have nothing to do with that young man who lost his life. We have seen efforts to undermine the verdict of the jury and, more broadly, to inflame racial tensions that I think are sad and irresponsible,? the Texas senator added.
Cruz went on to refute the ?remarkable? allegation that Stand Your Ground laws do not protect black communities.
?I think that?s a remarkable statement on many, many fronts, including the fact that a great many African-Americans find themselves victims of violent crime, and have asserted this defense to defend themselves, defend their families, defend their children,? he explained.
The assertion is even more ?remarkable,? Cruz said, when you consider that in 2004, ?a state senator in Illinois by the name of Barack Obama co-sponsored an expansion of Illinois? law providing civil immunity for those who use justifiable force to defend themselves.?
?The notion that stand your ground laws are some form of veiled racism may be a convenient political attack, but it is not borne out by the facts remotely,? he concluded.
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Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) came face-to-face with Sybrina Fulton, the mother of Trayvon Martin, on Capitol Hill during a Tuesday hearing on ?Stand Your Ground? laws. After offering his condolences to Fulton, Cruz told the mother that the self-defense laws are not racist because they help blacks as much as whites, if not more.
Cruz also explained that, despite some efforts to exploit Martin?s death, George Zimmerman?s defense team never used Stand Your Ground laws as a defense in the murder trial.
(C-SPAN)
Cruz went on to refute the ?remarkable? allegation that Stand Your Ground laws do not protect black communities.
?I think that?s a remarkable statement on many, many fronts, including the fact that a great many African-Americans find themselves victims of violent crime, and have asserted this defense to defend themselves, defend their families, defend their children,? he explained.
The assertion is even more ?remarkable,? Cruz said, when you consider that in 2004, ?a state senator in Illinois by the name of Barack Obama co-sponsored an expansion of Illinois? law providing civil immunity for those who use justifiable force to defend themselves.?
?The notion that stand your ground laws are some form of veiled racism may be a convenient political attack, but it is not borne out by the facts remotely,? he concluded.
?
They dont have to. The issue is they can easily put a heavy tax on guns that are not turned in. IE you own a gun and if you do not turn it in the IRS can not fuck with your pay check. Shit they can even fuck with your health insurance now pretty soon. This is the problem with giving the gov't to much power. If you think there going to play fair then your out of your mind. The second you don't comply they will just run a query in a database that says fuck this guy and now your uninsured and getting wages garnished.
keep giving the gov't control they can order the states to hand it over. The chances of this actually happening soon i think are slim, but just 30 years ago this conversation would never even be thought of. So whats not to say what will happen in 30 more years. when my dad was a kid they would shoot each other will real bb guns and play with real bow and arrows before school. We are becoming an over protective society that wants the gov't to step in and baby sit.
Some people are that way, wanting the government to step in and take responsibility for everyone, but not most. In my opinion, anyway. It's just the government is all to willing to step up and try to take away our rights. The sad part is that so few people realize our two-party system is really a single party system. Why else would any third party presidential candidates be excluded from any debates to get more exposure?
as for giving up my guns honestly i think i would. I wont risk the potential risk to my family because the gov't knows i have guns but refuse. However, they wont get my entire gun just what is required to register ie lower piece of an AR. We own 20 80% lowers that do not require a registration that we would finish in our CNC. It would be shitty to lose my pistols but reality if it came down to red flagging my family i would hand them over. It is easy to say fuck them over my dead body but last thing i want is the gov't in my business more then they are. If it came down to it just start reporting them stolen and hide them
If you're going to just hide them you may as well just turn them in. Should they show up at my door for my guns they can have them. But only after I've thoroughly warmed up the barrels.
jagbender
Registered
[h=2]Gun Companies Leave New York Following SAFE Act[/h]Opposition mounts even as part of law is quietly delayed
BY: Mary Lou Byrd
November 5, 2013 2:29 pm
Nearly 10 months since New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D.) signed the SAFE Act, opposition to the law continues to increase, multiple gun companies have announced plans to leave the state, and a key provision in the law has been quietly delayed.
American Tactical Imports (ATI) announced it would be leaving the state and will be investing $2.7 million in its new facility and creating 117 new jobs in South Carolina.
ATI?s announcement follows the decision of Kahr Arms to relocate to neighboring Pennsylvania, citing ?uncertainty? about gun laws following the passage of the SAFE Act.
?One of our big concerns was, OK, the SAFE Act was passed in the middle of the night. You wake up the next morning and boom, that was it,? Kahr Vice President of Sales and Marketing Frank Harris told the Times Union in July.?It?s not just the SAFE Act, but the uncertainty.?
Meanwhile, Remington Arms is reportedly scouting locations in Tennessee for a new plant, following passage of the SAFE Act.
?One of the nation?s largest gun manufacturers, Remington Arms, has looked at sites around Nashville for a potential corporate relocation or expansion that would likely include hundreds of manufacturing jobs,? the Tennesseean reported in August. The company?s New York plant manufactures a rifle that is now banned under the SAFE Act.
CNY Central reported that Remington has been approached by ?a number of ?gun-friendly states?? in the wake of the bill?s passage.
Remington has reportedly yet to decide if it will stay in the state or leave.
Meanwhile, a provision of the law requiring background checks on ammunition purchases has been delayed. Background checks were expected to be functional on Jan. 15.
The New York State Police asked the Free Beacon to submit questions after being asked for comment. They did not respond by press time.
It is unclear why ammunition background checks have been delayed and when they will be functional. The number of arrests that have been made under the SAFE Act, and how many of those arrests involved those with criminal backgrounds, also remains unknown.
When Gov. Cuomo signed the law he said it would allow authorities to track ammunition purchases in real time.
Gov. Cuomo?s office did not respond to a request for comment.
Additionally, opposition to the law appears to be growing.
Harold ?Budd? Schroeder, chairman of the board of the Shooters Committee on Political Education, said his group?s membership has swelled to 6,000 from its previous 3,000. He said these are ?volumes? he has never seen before.
?I?ve been involved in the Second Amendment for four decades, and this is something that I have never seen,? Schroeder said. ?It has really gotten under the skin of legal gun owners.?
He said his group has sold over 14,000 ?Repeal the SAFE Act? signs since June.
Counties in New York are passing resolutions opposing the gun control law. New York resident Evan Hempel created a website, NYSAFEResolutions.com, to document the local government?s opposition to the SAFE Act.
?It is a law forced on rural New Yorkers by a liberal elite who opposes the principles of the U.S. Constitution,? Hempel said by email. ?The majority of the state wants a hands-off, non-intrusive government, which does not interfere with their right to bear arms or crush business with harmful regulation.?
?The more people find out about SAFE the less they like it and the angrier they get,? said Jacob J. Rieper, vice president of Legislative & Political Affairs for the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association. ?The law was designed specifically to target ordinary decent people, which is why it has no effect on criminals. The issue isn?t going to go away no matter how much Cuomo and legislators would like it to.?
The Second Amendment Coalition of Western New York (2ACWNY) is still planning a protest at a Cuomo fundraiser in Lake Erie on Wednesday, Nov. 6, though it is now unclear if Gov. Cuomo will be there.
David Rickard, spokesman for 2ACWNY, said in an email that his group wanted to let Gov. Cuomo know they are not going away.
?Our intent is the same at this event as it has been everywhere. To inform and educate the public to the fact that it is losing its freedoms, its liberty and its voice,? Rickard said.
An email obtained by the Free Beacon on Monday evening showed that Gov. Cuomo cancelled the fundraiser and it has been rescheduled to Nov. 19.
?There?s a lot of confusion regarding the change of venue and date for Wednesday,? Rickard said on Tuesday. ?It is my experience that when word gets out that people who stand in opposition are going to be there to have their voices heard, the times and places are changed and new info is scarce or released with only a day or two days? notice.?
Rickard indicated his group will be there tomorrow and also on Nov. 19.
Gov. Cuomo also said when he signed the law it would keep the guns out of the hands of convicted felons.
However, the Free Beacon found numerous reports of legal gun owners being arrested.
One man who was arrested in May had nine rounds of ammunition; the new law limits the rounds of ammunition to seven. He was a legal gun owner. The district attorney later said he would not prosecute.
Two other arrests include one man who said he was target shooting and found to have additional rounds of ammunition, and another arrested and now facing a charge for having 11 rounds.
Another arrest in mid-October was of another legal gun owner, Paul Wojdan, who had 10 rounds of ammunition. Wojdan is scheduled to be arraigned on Wednesday morning.
Schroeder said he and several others would be there to support a legal gun owner who is now considered a criminal for having three extra rounds of ammunition.
Update, 10:20 AM Wed., Nov. 6: The story has been updated to note that multiple gun companies have left New York following the passage of the SAFE Act and that a third is reportedly considering leaving the state.
A member of NY2A Grassroots Coalition, stands on an image of New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo / AP
BY: Mary Lou Byrd
November 5, 2013 2:29 pm
Nearly 10 months since New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D.) signed the SAFE Act, opposition to the law continues to increase, multiple gun companies have announced plans to leave the state, and a key provision in the law has been quietly delayed.
American Tactical Imports (ATI) announced it would be leaving the state and will be investing $2.7 million in its new facility and creating 117 new jobs in South Carolina.
ATI?s announcement follows the decision of Kahr Arms to relocate to neighboring Pennsylvania, citing ?uncertainty? about gun laws following the passage of the SAFE Act.
?One of our big concerns was, OK, the SAFE Act was passed in the middle of the night. You wake up the next morning and boom, that was it,? Kahr Vice President of Sales and Marketing Frank Harris told the Times Union in July.?It?s not just the SAFE Act, but the uncertainty.?
Meanwhile, Remington Arms is reportedly scouting locations in Tennessee for a new plant, following passage of the SAFE Act.
?One of the nation?s largest gun manufacturers, Remington Arms, has looked at sites around Nashville for a potential corporate relocation or expansion that would likely include hundreds of manufacturing jobs,? the Tennesseean reported in August. The company?s New York plant manufactures a rifle that is now banned under the SAFE Act.
CNY Central reported that Remington has been approached by ?a number of ?gun-friendly states?? in the wake of the bill?s passage.
Remington has reportedly yet to decide if it will stay in the state or leave.
Meanwhile, a provision of the law requiring background checks on ammunition purchases has been delayed. Background checks were expected to be functional on Jan. 15.
The New York State Police asked the Free Beacon to submit questions after being asked for comment. They did not respond by press time.
It is unclear why ammunition background checks have been delayed and when they will be functional. The number of arrests that have been made under the SAFE Act, and how many of those arrests involved those with criminal backgrounds, also remains unknown.
When Gov. Cuomo signed the law he said it would allow authorities to track ammunition purchases in real time.
Gov. Cuomo?s office did not respond to a request for comment.
Additionally, opposition to the law appears to be growing.
Harold ?Budd? Schroeder, chairman of the board of the Shooters Committee on Political Education, said his group?s membership has swelled to 6,000 from its previous 3,000. He said these are ?volumes? he has never seen before.
?I?ve been involved in the Second Amendment for four decades, and this is something that I have never seen,? Schroeder said. ?It has really gotten under the skin of legal gun owners.?
He said his group has sold over 14,000 ?Repeal the SAFE Act? signs since June.
Counties in New York are passing resolutions opposing the gun control law. New York resident Evan Hempel created a website, NYSAFEResolutions.com, to document the local government?s opposition to the SAFE Act.
?It is a law forced on rural New Yorkers by a liberal elite who opposes the principles of the U.S. Constitution,? Hempel said by email. ?The majority of the state wants a hands-off, non-intrusive government, which does not interfere with their right to bear arms or crush business with harmful regulation.?
?The more people find out about SAFE the less they like it and the angrier they get,? said Jacob J. Rieper, vice president of Legislative & Political Affairs for the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association. ?The law was designed specifically to target ordinary decent people, which is why it has no effect on criminals. The issue isn?t going to go away no matter how much Cuomo and legislators would like it to.?
The Second Amendment Coalition of Western New York (2ACWNY) is still planning a protest at a Cuomo fundraiser in Lake Erie on Wednesday, Nov. 6, though it is now unclear if Gov. Cuomo will be there.
David Rickard, spokesman for 2ACWNY, said in an email that his group wanted to let Gov. Cuomo know they are not going away.
?Our intent is the same at this event as it has been everywhere. To inform and educate the public to the fact that it is losing its freedoms, its liberty and its voice,? Rickard said.
An email obtained by the Free Beacon on Monday evening showed that Gov. Cuomo cancelled the fundraiser and it has been rescheduled to Nov. 19.
?There?s a lot of confusion regarding the change of venue and date for Wednesday,? Rickard said on Tuesday. ?It is my experience that when word gets out that people who stand in opposition are going to be there to have their voices heard, the times and places are changed and new info is scarce or released with only a day or two days? notice.?
Rickard indicated his group will be there tomorrow and also on Nov. 19.
Gov. Cuomo also said when he signed the law it would keep the guns out of the hands of convicted felons.
However, the Free Beacon found numerous reports of legal gun owners being arrested.
One man who was arrested in May had nine rounds of ammunition; the new law limits the rounds of ammunition to seven. He was a legal gun owner. The district attorney later said he would not prosecute.
Two other arrests include one man who said he was target shooting and found to have additional rounds of ammunition, and another arrested and now facing a charge for having 11 rounds.
Another arrest in mid-October was of another legal gun owner, Paul Wojdan, who had 10 rounds of ammunition. Wojdan is scheduled to be arraigned on Wednesday morning.
Schroeder said he and several others would be there to support a legal gun owner who is now considered a criminal for having three extra rounds of ammunition.
Update, 10:20 AM Wed., Nov. 6: The story has been updated to note that multiple gun companies have left New York following the passage of the SAFE Act and that a third is reportedly considering leaving the state.
it's been going on for decades. myself and I buddy initially got charged with attempted murder when we were in 11th grade when he shot a girl with my bb-gun, that was 1985.
For my self with the 80% and non reg and hiding them is fine because we shoot on private property so its not like im taking it to a range. We have our own three gun course and long range from 500-1000. But if the gov't wanted our guns they would just supena the state get all the records and have the IRS audit it and fine use based on what guns we have not turned in. Like in NY how they had to pay that stupid reg every year it made it impossible to own a gun.
You do what you think you need to do. I will stand for our rights and against a tyrannical government.
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]Concealed carrier confronts, kills two armed robbers in Reading, PA[/h]
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun who knows how to use it, and this Reading, PA concealed carrier certainly did:
WHAAAA can you believe the next article?
[h=1]Mother of thug killed during armed robbery whines ?it?s not fair.?[/h]
Tags: pennsylvania
[h=2]About the author: Bob Owens[/h]
Bob Owens is the Editor of BearingArms.com.
A long-time shooting enthusiast, he began blogging as a North Carolina native in New York at the politics-focused Confederate Yankee in 2004. In 2007 Bob began writing about firearms, gun rights, and crime at Pajamas Media, and added gun and gear reviews for Shooting Illustrated in 2010. He is a volunteer in the Appleseed Project, where he shares stories of our shared American heritage and teaches traditional rifle marksmanship.
- NOVEMBER 5, 2013 AT 7:53 AM
- BEARINGARMS.COM STAFF
- 108 COMMENTS
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun who knows how to use it, and this Reading, PA concealed carrier certainly did:
The armed men took cash, cigarettes and lottery tickets before exiting the store. Outside they were confronted by the concerned citizen who told them not to move and that he was calling police.
Adams said a struggle ensued and the suspects took out their weapons. The citizen, however, was also armed and fired at the suspects.
The suspects were both shot in the chest and died at the scene.
The entire crime inside and outside the store was apparently captured on security cameras, and police do not expect to file charges against the concealed carrier.Adams said a struggle ensued and the suspects took out their weapons. The citizen, however, was also armed and fired at the suspects.
The suspects were both shot in the chest and died at the scene.
WHAAAA can you believe the next article?
[h=1]Mother of thug killed during armed robbery whines ?it?s not fair.?[/h]
- NOVEMBER 6, 2013 AT 2:05 PM
- BOB OWENS
- 173 COMMENTS
Family members of the two masked men shot to death after allegedly robbing a store in Reading spoke out Tuesday.
?It?s not fair,? said Virginia Medina, mother of 24-year-old William Medina, who police said robbed Krick?s Korner store alongside 18-year-old Robert De Carr on Monday.
The two men were shot and killed by a private citizen while leaving the store, and family members want to see charges pressed.
?[William] had no right to lose his life over something that man could have called the police for,? said Medina. ?He took the law into his own hands and walked away scot-free.?
?How about if people just start running around here, policing the city on their own? How much worse is it going to get?? said Peter Ratel, Medina?s cousin.
The family members said they are hurt by comments suggesting the alleged robbers were ?thugs.?
The entire robbery and shootout was apparently captured by store security cameras, including the shooting. Reading Police and the District Attorney have declined to press charges against the concealed carrier.?It?s not fair,? said Virginia Medina, mother of 24-year-old William Medina, who police said robbed Krick?s Korner store alongside 18-year-old Robert De Carr on Monday.
The two men were shot and killed by a private citizen while leaving the store, and family members want to see charges pressed.
?[William] had no right to lose his life over something that man could have called the police for,? said Medina. ?He took the law into his own hands and walked away scot-free.?
?How about if people just start running around here, policing the city on their own? How much worse is it going to get?? said Peter Ratel, Medina?s cousin.
The family members said they are hurt by comments suggesting the alleged robbers were ?thugs.?
Tags: pennsylvania
[h=2]About the author: Bob Owens[/h]
Bob Owens is the Editor of BearingArms.com.
A long-time shooting enthusiast, he began blogging as a North Carolina native in New York at the politics-focused Confederate Yankee in 2004. In 2007 Bob began writing about firearms, gun rights, and crime at Pajamas Media, and added gun and gear reviews for Shooting Illustrated in 2010. He is a volunteer in the Appleseed Project, where he shares stories of our shared American heritage and teaches traditional rifle marksmanship.
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Worlds First Steel 3D Printed .45!
VIDEO: Solid Concepts produces the world’s first 3D printed metal 1911
[h=1]VIDEO: Solid Concepts produces the world?s first 3D printed metal 1911[/h]
While hysterical politicians are considering the regulation of 3D plastic printers over fears that criminals will print plastic guns?because so many 6th-grade dropouts are CAD savants?Solid Concepts has bypassed the plastic gun drama entirely, and has printed the first functioning, firing 3D printed metal gun, a .45 ACP that has already sucked down an entire 50-round box of hardball.
Eric Mutchler, Solid Concepts project coordinator, tells me, ?The caliber is 45 ACP and please understand this was not an off the shell barrel. We grew it with lands and grooves in our 3D metal machine.?
Head over to their blog post for more details.
Scott McGowan Vice President of Marketing for Solid Concepts, says that, ?we?re not going into production at this time.?
I?m going to read an implied ?yet? on the end of that statement, whether he wants me too, or not.
Update: Solid Concepts has sent us a close-up photo of the printed barrel and several other parts that you might recognize. Click on the photo to enlarge it.
Tags: 3D Printing, Video
VIDEO: Solid Concepts produces the world’s first 3D printed metal 1911
[h=1]VIDEO: Solid Concepts produces the world?s first 3D printed metal 1911[/h]
- NOVEMBER 7, 2013 AT 2:37 PM
- BOB OWENS
- 32 COMMENTS
While hysterical politicians are considering the regulation of 3D plastic printers over fears that criminals will print plastic guns?because so many 6th-grade dropouts are CAD savants?Solid Concepts has bypassed the plastic gun drama entirely, and has printed the first functioning, firing 3D printed metal gun, a .45 ACP that has already sucked down an entire 50-round box of hardball.
You?ll note that the gun is accurate as well.
Eric Mutchler, Solid Concepts project coordinator, tells me, ?The caliber is 45 ACP and please understand this was not an off the shell barrel. We grew it with lands and grooves in our 3D metal machine.?
Head over to their blog post for more details.
Scott McGowan Vice President of Marketing for Solid Concepts, says that, ?we?re not going into production at this time.?
I?m going to read an implied ?yet? on the end of that statement, whether he wants me too, or not.
Update: Solid Concepts has sent us a close-up photo of the printed barrel and several other parts that you might recognize. Click on the photo to enlarge it.
Tags: 3D Printing, Video
jagbender
Registered
[h=1]Open carrier wins wrongful stop suit in Oregon[/h]
Nicely done, sir.
- NOVEMBER 5, 2013 AT 5:31 PM
- BOB OWENS
- 66 COMMENTS
Nicely done, sir.
U.S. District Judge Michael McShane issued an opinion in September that Dodge didn?t have the required reasonable suspicion to detain Hall.
Both sides agree, according to court documents, that when Hall noticed Dodge exit his patrol vehicle, he asked if he was being detained. The officer replied no, but said he?d like to speak to Hall. Hall ignored Dodge?s questions and asked again if he was being detained. That time, Dodge replied yes. Hall remained silent as Dodge patted him down and asked him questions such as where he lived and whether he had identification on him.
Court documents indicate that the officer was suspicious of Hall because he was openly carrying a gun in a high-crime area along the railroad tracks, wearing a dark hooded sweatshirt covering his head, behaving and moving suspiciously and refusing to answer his questions. Hall?s residence and mailbox were on a short section of Sixth Street, near D Avenue, which borders the railroad tracks. It is unpaved and dead-ends before it reaches C Avenue.
The officer said he had reasonable suspicion that Hall had been trespassing on railroad property.
Judge McShane disagreed.
Both sides agree, according to court documents, that when Hall noticed Dodge exit his patrol vehicle, he asked if he was being detained. The officer replied no, but said he?d like to speak to Hall. Hall ignored Dodge?s questions and asked again if he was being detained. That time, Dodge replied yes. Hall remained silent as Dodge patted him down and asked him questions such as where he lived and whether he had identification on him.
Court documents indicate that the officer was suspicious of Hall because he was openly carrying a gun in a high-crime area along the railroad tracks, wearing a dark hooded sweatshirt covering his head, behaving and moving suspiciously and refusing to answer his questions. Hall?s residence and mailbox were on a short section of Sixth Street, near D Avenue, which borders the railroad tracks. It is unpaved and dead-ends before it reaches C Avenue.
The officer said he had reasonable suspicion that Hall had been trespassing on railroad property.
Judge McShane disagreed.
jagbender
Registered
IRONY???????????????
[h=1]TSA Union Wants Armed Agents To Protect Workforce From Right-Wing Threats[/h]November 6, 2013 by Sam Rolley
1709 15
1 1830
In the wake of the murder of a Transportation Security Administration official at Los Angeles International Airport last week, the union representing the agency?s employees is calling on lawmakers to give some TSA agents guns, handcuffs and the power to make arrests.
Many lawmakers and the Administration of Barack Obama have called for a review of airport security procedures following the shooting, but the TSA union has already come up with a proposal that would create a new class of TSA agent with all of the powers of a regular law enforcement officer.
The union claims that adding the new, more powerful agents to the TSA?s workforce ? which is already comprised of 45,000 employees ? would serve to protect what union officials describe as a workforce that has been unfairly demonized by ?the right-wing media and certain members of Congress.?
The liberal Southern Poverty Law Center has already jumped at the opportunity to link the 23-year-old LAX shooter, Paul Ciancia, to the broader conservative movement because the deranged individual was carrying ?a one-page ?manifesto? that included references to the ?New World Order,? the Federal Reserve and ?fiat currency???
SPLC?s Mark Potok noted on the organization?s website:
?Our officers are verbally assaulted every day; they?re physically assaulted far too often, and they need better protection at those checkpoints,? David Borer, the general counsel for the American Federation of Government Employees, said during an interview with Federal News Radio.
?That?s why we?re advocating for a new class of officer who is trained as a law enforcement officer, has a weapon, has arrest authority and so forth to protect those checkpoints.?
Representatives of the union also claim that the addition of TSA agents with broader power would lead to an overall increase in airport security and better equip the agency to deal with incidents like the Friday shooting.
?We feel a larger and more consistent armed presence in screening areas would be a positive step in improving security for both [security officers] and the flying public,? said J. David Cox, president of the American Federation of Government Employees, according to POLITICO. ?The development of a new class of TSA officers with law enforcement status would be a logical approach to accomplishing this goal.?
The TSA already has armed Federal air marshals and a class of ?armed security officers? that it either employs directly or contracts. The agency says that these employees must meet ?qualifications established by TSA, in coordination with the Federal Air Marshal Service.?
Arming a greater number of TSA officers will likely be a tough sell, however, as recent years have seen increasing calls from the public for Congress to quell the agency?s power and TSA agents have been at the center of a number of embarrassing incidents.
A Government Accountability Office report in August stated that misconduct among TSA agents has increased by about 26 percent in the past three years, though Borer claims that the agency?s bad apples represent only 1 percent of the TSA workforce. Some of the latest reports of TSA abuses and incompetence include the story of a 9-year-old boy who snuck past a checkpoint and boarded a flight without a ticket, agents detaining a 3-year-old girl bound to a wheelchair, and an undercover inspector sneaking an explosive device past a checkpoint. There have also been countless reports of TSA agents using their authority to grope passengers for perverse ends and a report last month of an air marshal ? employed by the TSA ? taking cellphone pictures up female passengers? skirts.
Even Representative John Mica (R-Fla.), who is largely credited with creating the TSA, has become a critic of the agency in recent years. In 2011, the Congressman lamented that what ?was meant to be a very lean, adaptive security agency that would set standards? had grown into a monster and an insult to the freedom of the American flying public.
[h=1]TSA Union Wants Armed Agents To Protect Workforce From Right-Wing Threats[/h]November 6, 2013 by Sam Rolley
1709 15
1 1830
UPI
In the wake of the murder of a Transportation Security Administration official at Los Angeles International Airport last week, the union representing the agency?s employees is calling on lawmakers to give some TSA agents guns, handcuffs and the power to make arrests.
Many lawmakers and the Administration of Barack Obama have called for a review of airport security procedures following the shooting, but the TSA union has already come up with a proposal that would create a new class of TSA agent with all of the powers of a regular law enforcement officer.
The union claims that adding the new, more powerful agents to the TSA?s workforce ? which is already comprised of 45,000 employees ? would serve to protect what union officials describe as a workforce that has been unfairly demonized by ?the right-wing media and certain members of Congress.?
The liberal Southern Poverty Law Center has already jumped at the opportunity to link the 23-year-old LAX shooter, Paul Ciancia, to the broader conservative movement because the deranged individual was carrying ?a one-page ?manifesto? that included references to the ?New World Order,? the Federal Reserve and ?fiat currency???
SPLC?s Mark Potok noted on the organization?s website:
Ciancia?s language and references seemed to put him squarely in the conspiracy-minded world of the antigovernment ?Patriot? movement. The New World Order refers to a longstanding conspiracy theory that today, in its most popular iteration, claims that global elites are plotting to form a socialistic ?one-world government? that would crush American freedoms. Often, the root of the alleged conspiracy is traced to the 1913 creation of the Federal Reserve and the adoption of fiat currency ? paper money that is not backed by gold, as it was once was in the U.S.
So-called Patriots also increasingly see the DHS, which produces intelligence assessments of extremists that are distributed to other law enforcement agencies, as an enemy and even a collaborator in the New World Order conspiracy.
And from now on, it seems the TSA union will use Ciancia?s beliefs to attempt to classify any traveler who feels he has been mistreated by the TSA and objects as an imminent threat.So-called Patriots also increasingly see the DHS, which produces intelligence assessments of extremists that are distributed to other law enforcement agencies, as an enemy and even a collaborator in the New World Order conspiracy.
?Our officers are verbally assaulted every day; they?re physically assaulted far too often, and they need better protection at those checkpoints,? David Borer, the general counsel for the American Federation of Government Employees, said during an interview with Federal News Radio.
?That?s why we?re advocating for a new class of officer who is trained as a law enforcement officer, has a weapon, has arrest authority and so forth to protect those checkpoints.?
Representatives of the union also claim that the addition of TSA agents with broader power would lead to an overall increase in airport security and better equip the agency to deal with incidents like the Friday shooting.
?We feel a larger and more consistent armed presence in screening areas would be a positive step in improving security for both [security officers] and the flying public,? said J. David Cox, president of the American Federation of Government Employees, according to POLITICO. ?The development of a new class of TSA officers with law enforcement status would be a logical approach to accomplishing this goal.?
The TSA already has armed Federal air marshals and a class of ?armed security officers? that it either employs directly or contracts. The agency says that these employees must meet ?qualifications established by TSA, in coordination with the Federal Air Marshal Service.?
Arming a greater number of TSA officers will likely be a tough sell, however, as recent years have seen increasing calls from the public for Congress to quell the agency?s power and TSA agents have been at the center of a number of embarrassing incidents.
A Government Accountability Office report in August stated that misconduct among TSA agents has increased by about 26 percent in the past three years, though Borer claims that the agency?s bad apples represent only 1 percent of the TSA workforce. Some of the latest reports of TSA abuses and incompetence include the story of a 9-year-old boy who snuck past a checkpoint and boarded a flight without a ticket, agents detaining a 3-year-old girl bound to a wheelchair, and an undercover inspector sneaking an explosive device past a checkpoint. There have also been countless reports of TSA agents using their authority to grope passengers for perverse ends and a report last month of an air marshal ? employed by the TSA ? taking cellphone pictures up female passengers? skirts.
Even Representative John Mica (R-Fla.), who is largely credited with creating the TSA, has become a critic of the agency in recent years. In 2011, the Congressman lamented that what ?was meant to be a very lean, adaptive security agency that would set standards? had grown into a monster and an insult to the freedom of the American flying public.
I never said i would not stand up for my rights, but i also wont risk my business and my family over something. You better believe i would be at every march, rally, conference and ect. but if the fed gov't Put into law any weapon not turned in will be subject to penalty by the IRS there is not much i can do about that. You don't pay, ok they garnish wages. I have seen this shit with money owed by people in the military. The government will all ways get what they want. The problem is people voting these socialist presidents we allow the government to become even stronger. its logical what they can now do once they make medical also obsolete and everyone is on gov't healthcare. You dont comply with government regulation you not long get healthcare, you no longer get healthcare you pay the penalty.
What are you going to do shoot the people if they ask for your guns, or hold a stand? I highly doubt that. I am probably one of the most pro guns guys here, but common sense tells me that if shit does happen we may have to give up rights and take the long road to fight to get them back. I hold my constitution HIGH, but the one that I value more then it is my wife and family.
If you will not make a stand when your rights are taken away, at which point do you intend to take a stand? It isn't a matter or pro-gun, it's a matter of pro-rights. And, yes, I will shoot the first asshole in the face when they come for my guns. You say you value your family yet are willing to acquiesce their rights over money.
Like I've said many times before: Money trumps all.
ok you shoot some one in cold blood your in prison, how is that protecting your family? As much as i would love to talk and sound bad ass about shooting the guy the fact is i would never. I have shot people in war and I have seen people die. If I never have to experience that again in my life i will be happy. The IRS all ready has a contingency plan they they have trained employees on. The first step is to force a federal registration.
Forcing yearly registration cost, One a persona registration to own a handgun 300$ a year, next would be a rifle $300 ($ amounts are just values not actual costs but they were close from what i remember seeing) Yearly fees for each gun you own 225$. There was TONS more registration fees so you can see for someone owning a good gun collection it could get close to 5-10k a year. This goal is to try to remove the mind set of guns its the first stage in what they have planned.
The second would be an overall ban, turn in guns, if you fail to then the IRS can start taking away wages and remove some benefits. Now here is the kicker what they want to do. Not paying taxes is a federal offence. Having a felony will not allow you own a fire arm completely. So you may not land in jail, but they can charge you will tax evasion send you a paper in the mail stating to appear at court and now your charged and sent home.
So enlighten me where this is taking care of your family? Money does not trump all, but if it comes down to my ability to run my company, feed my family then yes i will hand my weapons over and fight it in a diplomatic way. You shoot some one in the face that only gives them more fire to ban guns. The democratic party will have a fiesta with those new broadcastings. I dont like it as much as anything else, but it is just a fact that I value my freedom more then this country. If this country wants to strip away my rights, i am sorry, but I will not be an idiot and go shoot someone and land a life sentence in prison. I will sale my company and find a place that supports my beliefs and if you call that gutless or not patriotic then you need to rethink a few things, because i have spilled blood for this country and I have buried best friends for this country. I have had to engage children at war because they are shooting at me. So if this country wants to shit on me and my rights, the yuppies and Obama lovers can have it. I will be happy to move to Switzerland.
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Man Shoots "Noisy" Neighbors: Police | NBC 10 Philadelphia
Man Shoots "Noisy" Neighbors: Police
A western Pennsylvania man shot his upstairs neighbors to death before killing himself at an apartment complex, and he was apparently provoked by an ongoing dispute over noise, state police said.
The gunman, Philip Cancilla, 51, was found dead about 2:30 p.m. Wednesday in his unit in a sprawling nine-building apartment complex in Hempfield Township, about 30 miles east of Pittsburgh.
On Thursday, state police held a news conference at their barracks in nearby Greensburg to detail the carnage and identify Cancilla's victims.
The gunman ambushed Christina White, 23, and Timothy Reffner, 30, about 7 a.m. Wednesday as they carried laundry out of the apartment they shared, intending to wash it at a relative's home, police said. Cancilla chased the couple and shot both in a nearby parking lot, Trooper Stephen Limani said.
Autopsies determined White was shot five times and Reffner six times, all in the head and back. Cancilla used two handguns, .22- and .45-caliber, both registered to him, Limani said.
Police locked down the complex for about seven hours, searching for the gunman. Those restrictions were lifted after Cancilla was found dead.
Inside his apartment was short note that read, "Can only be provoked so long before exploding," Limani said.
Police believe that referred to an ongoing feud between Cancilla and the couple, who had complained to the apartment's management about one another. Cancilla, in particular, had complained about noise and music coming from the couple's apartment above his.
"It's a shame that two young, productive citizens tragically lost their lives over something like this," Westmoreland County Coroner Ken Bacha said.
White had worked since August as a guard at the county prison. Reffner's family told authorities he was an Army veteran who recently returned from an 18-month tour of duty in Iraq, Bacha said.
Cancilla's background wasn't immediately known. Police said he had no serious criminal history, and court documents show only that he pleaded guilty to running a red light last month and paid a small fine.
Man Shoots "Noisy" Neighbors: Police
A western Pennsylvania man shot his upstairs neighbors to death before killing himself at an apartment complex, and he was apparently provoked by an ongoing dispute over noise, state police said.
The gunman, Philip Cancilla, 51, was found dead about 2:30 p.m. Wednesday in his unit in a sprawling nine-building apartment complex in Hempfield Township, about 30 miles east of Pittsburgh.
On Thursday, state police held a news conference at their barracks in nearby Greensburg to detail the carnage and identify Cancilla's victims.
The gunman ambushed Christina White, 23, and Timothy Reffner, 30, about 7 a.m. Wednesday as they carried laundry out of the apartment they shared, intending to wash it at a relative's home, police said. Cancilla chased the couple and shot both in a nearby parking lot, Trooper Stephen Limani said.
Autopsies determined White was shot five times and Reffner six times, all in the head and back. Cancilla used two handguns, .22- and .45-caliber, both registered to him, Limani said.
Police locked down the complex for about seven hours, searching for the gunman. Those restrictions were lifted after Cancilla was found dead.
Inside his apartment was short note that read, "Can only be provoked so long before exploding," Limani said.
Police believe that referred to an ongoing feud between Cancilla and the couple, who had complained to the apartment's management about one another. Cancilla, in particular, had complained about noise and music coming from the couple's apartment above his.
"It's a shame that two young, productive citizens tragically lost their lives over something like this," Westmoreland County Coroner Ken Bacha said.
White had worked since August as a guard at the county prison. Reffner's family told authorities he was an Army veteran who recently returned from an 18-month tour of duty in Iraq, Bacha said.
Cancilla's background wasn't immediately known. Police said he had no serious criminal history, and court documents show only that he pleaded guilty to running a red light last month and paid a small fine.
