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Implementing cardio on bulk

sax

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So, new to lifting; I've read the stickies and I'm still confused as to what I should be doing. It's going on 3 months I've joined a gym. Gained 15lbs with a BF% of around 25%. I stay away from cardio, but my clothes aren't fitting and I'm starting to look like a lard-ass, but people still consider me a skinny guy. I made a thread called "skinny endomorph" and talked about my concerns. Anyway, at this point I don't want to bulk anymore, I want get lean and be in good physical, healthy shape, so implementing cardio is the best way to do that along with a clean diet. My fear is losing the gains I've made. I still look like a lanky, yet chubby guy so I'm confused as to what to do.

If I were to continue my current regimen (high weights and low reps) and add some cardio will I still see any gains? I'm still a newbie, but at this point I'm just awkward looking. Skinny neck, skinny legs, man boobs, lovehandles, fat thighs.

Obviously on my workout days I'd be eating more calories, but if I lay off on my cardio days will I lose my gains?If my workout looks like this, would it be ok?

Bi/Back
cardio/abs
Legs
cardio/abs
Tri/chest
cardio/abs
rest.
 
performing interval training like HIIT or Max-OT cardio 2-3x a week is nothing except beneficial..doesn't matter if you are cutting or bulking or trying to maintain.

when bulking you generally want to avoid long cardio sessions.
 
performing interval training like HIIT or Max-OT cardio 2-3x a week is nothing except beneficial..doesn't matter if you are cutting or bulking or trying to maintain.

when bulking you generally want to avoid long cardio sessions.

I disagree.

When cutting, I don't think it would be a good idea to throw 2-3 extra high intensity workouts on top of what is already going with the regular weight lifting.

It just doesn't make sense to me to go in a caloric deficit and increase the overall volume and intensity of a program. I think that would burn someone out quick, mentally and physically.
 
I disagree.

When cutting, I don't think it would be a good idea to throw 2-3 extra high intensity workouts on top of what is already going with the regular weight lifting.

It just doesn't make sense to me to go in a caloric deficit and increase the overall volume and intensity of a program. I think that would burn someone out quick, mentally and physically.
Great advice!

I'd have to same the same.
 
So, new to lifting; I've read the stickies and I'm still confused as to what I should be doing. It's going on 3 months I've joined a gym. Gained 15lbs with a BF% of around 25%. I stay away from cardio, but my clothes aren't fitting and I'm starting to look like a lard-ass, but people still consider me a skinny guy. I made a thread called "skinny endomorph" and talked about my concerns. Anyway, at this point I don't want to bulk anymore, I want get lean and be in good physical, healthy shape, so implementing cardio is the best way to do that along with a clean diet. My fear is losing the gains I've made. I still look like a lanky, yet chubby guy so I'm confused as to what to do.

If I were to continue my current regimen (high weights and low reps) and add some cardio will I still see any gains? I'm still a newbie, but at this point I'm just awkward looking. Skinny neck, skinny legs, man boobs, lovehandles, fat thighs.

Obviously on my workout days I'd be eating more calories, but if I lay off on my cardio days will I lose my gains?If my workout looks like this, would it be ok?

Bi/Back
cardio/abs
Legs
cardio/abs
Tri/chest
cardio/abs
rest.

I came back to look at this thread, and I'm not sure I know what you want to do. Your title makes it sound like you want to continue gaining weight, but what you describe in the post makes it sound like you want to lose weight.

What is your current goal?
 
I came back to look at this thread, and I'm not sure I know what you want to do. Your title makes it sound like you want to continue gaining weight, but what you describe in the post makes it sound like you want to lose weight.

What is your current goal?

Well, hopefully the title of the thread was a typo, and if not we should try to change his goals because "man boobs, lovehandles, fat thighs" and 25% Bf he should be cutting not bulking.
 
Agreed.
 
Well, the thing is is that by most accounts people would consider me a skinny guy. But if you saw me with my shirt off you would see how soft I really am. I just don't have a lot of lean muscle mass. So I want to gain some mass, but cut the fat, which I know you have to choose one or the other, but at this point I have seen some muscle gains and have gotten some compliments, but I'm getting a little self conscious about the extra fat I've gained as well. And it all seems to have gone to my chest, loves, and thighs... on top of what was already there previously.

I'd like to continue bulking in the physical sense- meaning heavy lifting, but also incorporate cardio to burn the fat.

So hypothetically, if I start cutting, but do heavy lifting will I still see muscle gains instead of loss? What happens when you do heavy lifting during a calorie deficit? I don't want to lose my gains, but I want to trim the fat.

Btw, thanks for your input. Much obliged.
 
Well, the thing is is that by most accounts people would consider me a skinny guy. But if you saw me with my shirt off you would see how soft I really am. I just don't have a lot of lean muscle mass. So I want to gain some mass, but cut the fat, which I know you have to choose one or the other, but at this point I have seen some muscle gains and have gotten some compliments, but I'm getting a little self conscious about the extra fat I've gained as well. And it all seems to have gone to my chest, loves, and thighs... on top of what was already there previously.

I'd like to continue bulking in the physical sense- meaning heavy lifting, but also incorporate cardio to burn the fat.

So hypothetically, if I start cutting, but do heavy lifting will I still see muscle gains instead of loss? What happens when you do heavy lifting during a calorie deficit? I don't want to lose my gains, but I want to trim the fat.

Btw, thanks for your input. Much obliged.

If you really are 25% BF then it's time to cut.

Unless you're a total beginner or just on gear, it's virtually impossible to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit to lose fat. The body just doesn't work that way. However, if you play your cards right with diet, training, and possibly a few choice supplements (creatine, BCAAs, multi) then your muscle loss will be minimal to none.

The most important thing is your diet. Cutting is no different than clean bulking, which I'm guessing you didn't do (clean bulk would never lead to 25% BF). A clean bulk is intended to not only keep fat gain minimal but make the transition to cutting much easier, because all you have to do is simply substract and amend your diet as needed like a formula. If you know how many calories you're taking in each day and your macros then diet is simple. If you enter onto fitday.com it will give you peace of mind. You can literally add and substract calories and nutrients as needed, and see how even the subtlest changes can affect your diet so profoundly.

If you want to cut successfully this is what you have to do. Cut down to 10-13%, then resume bulking.

Training should be kept to primarily high-intensity low-volume, so as to not stress your body any further in the already-stressed state it will be in from calorie deficit. This method of training will best trigger to your body that your muscle mass is needed in this calorie deficit, so it won't revert to muscle protein for fuel.

As for cardio, some is fine to speed the process slightly, but don't rely on it. Let diet take care of most of the work. This won't be the best time to spend a lazy hour on an elipitcal. Remember that cardio tends to promote hunger.
 
I disagree.

When cutting, I don't think it would be a good idea to throw 2-3 extra high intensity workouts on top of what is already going with the regular weight lifting.

It just doesn't make sense to me to go in a caloric deficit and increase the overall volume and intensity of a program. I think that would burn someone out quick, mentally and physically.

interval training is anabolic..tons of peer reviewed medical studies proving this
 
Muscle Gelz Transdermals
IronMag Labs Prohormones
interval training is anabolic..tons of peer reviewed medical studies proving this

Yes, but does this mean more is better? The body can only take so much stress, especially when its recovery is compromised during a caloric deficit phase. That is like saying "weight lifting is anabolic", go do as much as you want and you will gain/won't lose muscle. No, there is a limit to what you can get away with.

My point still stands. Intensity and volume should be altered during a cut.
 
Yes, but does this mean more is better? The body can only take so much stress, especially when its recovery is compromised during a caloric deficit phase. That is like saying "weight lifting is anabolic", go do as much as you want and you will gain/won't lose muscle. No, there is a limit to what you can get away with.

My point still stands. Intensity and volume should be altered during a cut.

you have to seperate the body into 2 parts the CNS and skeletal muscle. skeletal muscle recovers from high intensity exercise faster than does the CNS. that being the case the muscles can be exercised while the CNS is not taxed much. technically you could train the same muscles daily if you used loads less than 50% of the 1RM as they do not cause microtrauma to skeletal muscle or tax the CNS.

cardio or resistance training can both be used as a form of active-recovery. intensity is what dictates the frequency of training.

in terms of bulking cardio like HIT increases the VO2max which enables the person to train longer and harder during high intensity resistance training sessions. the small loss in calories is far worth the 10-15 minutes you can spend 2x a week doing it

you also want to keep bf under control during a bulk and cardio can help with this. insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning determine how much fat free mass and fat is gained during a bulk
 
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you have to seperate the body into 2 parts the CNS and skeletal muscle. skeletal muscle recovers from high intensity exercise faster than does the CNS. that being the case the muscles can be exercised while the CNS is not taxed much. technically you could train the same muscles daily if you used loads less than 50% of the 1RM as they do not cause microtrauma to skeletal muscle or tax the CNS.

Agreed.

cardio or resistance training can both be used as a form of active-recovery. intensity is what dictates the frequency of training.

Agreed.

I'm not sure if things are getting lost in semantics, but my understanding of intensity is a percentage of maximal effort. Simply, the shorter you can sustain any exercise, the more intense it is. I agree intensity is something to consider when deciding the frequency of training, but to me intensity is not frequency, frequency is frequency.


in terms of bulking cardio like HIT increases the VO2max which enables the person to train longer and harder during high intensity resistance training sessions. the small loss in calories is far worth the 10-15 minutes you can spend 2x a week doing it

Agreed, but I am talking about cutting.


you also want to keep bf under control during a bulk and cardio can help with this. insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning determine how much fat free mass and fat is gained during a bulk

Agreed, but again I'm talking about cutting.

I think HIIT endurance training can, and often should, be incorporated into a cutting phase. Earlier I was making the point that it is unwise to train like you are bulking, when you are cutting. I was giving a general perspective on things, because I am unsure of the OP's goals and knowledge base.

During a cut I think overall volume and perhaps frequency should be lessened, and intensity should remain relatively high in order to maintain or perhaps increase performance (the latter is unlikely but everyone is different).

HIIT endurance training definitely has a place, but things need to be tweaked IMO to compensate for the reduction of the daily caloric intake, which in turn dimishes recovery abilities.

All of this is kind of general talk, I'm trying not to get too specific because things change with the individual.
 
During a cut I think overall volume and perhaps frequency should be lessened, and intensity should remain relatively high in order to maintain or perhaps increase performance (the latter is unlikely but everyone is different).

HIIT endurance training definitely has a place, but things need to be tweaked IMO to compensate for the reduction of the daily caloric intake, which in turn dimishes recovery abilities.

This.
 
you have to seperate the body into 2 parts the CNS and skeletal muscle. skeletal muscle recovers from high intensity exercise faster than does the CNS. that being the case the muscles can be exercised while the CNS is not taxed much. technically you could train the same muscles daily if you used loads less than 50% of the 1RM as they do not cause microtrauma to skeletal muscle or tax the CNS.

Yes, the CNS has a slower recovery rate than skeletal muscles. And yes, if intensity is appropriately low you could theoretically train muscle groups several times over in a day without overly stressing the involved muscles and/or CNS. However, (a) how beneficial would this be for performance, and (b) in the context of cutting how is this supposed to augment the fat loss process?

The whole concept of metabolic high-rep training on a cut (without even going into the further arguments of "sculpting" and "toning") is somewhat flawed. While there may be arguments for certain scenarios to show minor metabolic benefits versus higher-intensity, low-rep training, any decrease in intensity (intensity as a measure of relative effort) will result in a decrease of energy expenditure. You can perform 20 low-intensity reps, coast through the first 12-15 reps, and find yourself breathing heavy by rep 20 -- or you can perform a 5-rep set and be panting by the 4th rep. It's all relative. It works the same with running versus walking. You burn virtually equal calories over a distance regardless of time. The only difference is measuring against time elapsed the faster runner burns more calories than the slower runner. It's all relative.

Moreover, there's more to achieve when cutting than just fat loss. In fact, as diet should be the sole means to that end, training should be directed specifically for maintaining muscle mass. When in a calorie deficit your body searches for alternative fuel sources; incidentally, muscle protein is a potential fuel source -- what bodybuilders and other athletes want to prevent. It usually takes more than just a high-protein, low-carb diet to convince our bodies to revert to only fat, and not burn our hard-earned muscle. Performing many high-rep sets doesn't necessarily tell the body it needs to keep that large mass of muscle. You need to tell your body it needs to keep that mass at any costs, without working too hard to convince it -- hench low-volume/high-intensity: this method efficiently triggers to the body that its strength and mass needs to be preserved.


cardio or resistance training can both be used as a form of active-recovery. intensity is what dictates the frequency of training.

Very true. However, when cutting, as fufu said, the body's healing abilities are greatly hindered by calorie deficit and subsequent hormonal/nitrogen imbalance. Less is more.

in terms of bulking cardio like HIT increases the VO2max which enables the person to train longer and harder during high intensity resistance training sessions. the small loss in calories is far worth the 10-15 minutes you can spend 2x a week doing it

I agree that brief HIIT training (as per Built's "Daredevils are shredded" article) is useful in moderation when cutting. This would be used purely for stimulation and release of FFAs -- not athletic performance.

you also want to keep bf under control during a bulk and cardio can help with this. insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning determine how much fat free mass and fat is gained during a bulk

Cardio is highly useful on a bulk for many reasons, but I don't agree that one of them is fat maintenance. Diet determines how much fat you'll gain on a bulk. You can eat 1000 calories over maintenance, and hop on the eliptical to burn off 600 calories, with a net surplus of 400. Or, you can simply eat 400 calories over maintenance, and not waste your time. It's the wrong reason to perform cardio. Most people who use cardio for this reason don't apply themselves properly; it's not part of their training -- just justifcation for over-eating.

When applied properly, cardio can not only improve one's general health considerably but augment even the most intensive hypertrophy program.

See comments.
 
So, um.... with all this technical jargon aside.... what's the verdict?

Perhaps I am not clear about my goals. I suppose I'm not really too sure either. At this point in my life I'm kind of in a low point and I just want to make positive changes and channel my energy in a positive way. I want to get in good physical shape, I want to look at myself in the mirror and say "hey, you're looking better and better everyday." Today at work multiple people have commented and asked me if I've been working out, so my gains are noticeable. I want to continue gaining my muscle mass, but I'd like to trim this fat that I've gained and then some. I don't want to lose the gains I've made by going into a cutting phase and become a lanky, skinny fellow, only to redo what I've already accomplished as far as muscle mass goes. I'd feel like these past three months would have been a waste of time if I started cutting and lost my muscle gains by doing so. Are the losses negligible or minimal?


I'm no expert, I'm just a beginner. Never worked out a day in my life and started the gym three months ago. In MY mind, implementing cardio would be nothing but beneficial to one's health, regardless of bulking.

Maybe I'm contradicting myself, but I want both.... I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Again, I do appreciate your responses and shedding some light on an ignorant fellow.
 
So, um.... with all this technical jargon aside.... what's the verdict?

Perhaps I am not clear about my goals. I suppose I'm not really too sure either. At this point in my life I'm kind of in a low point and I just want to make positive changes and channel my energy in a positive way. I want to get in good physical shape, I want to look at myself in the mirror and say "hey, you're looking better and better everyday." Today at work multiple people have commented and asked me if I've been working out, so my gains are noticeable. I want to continue gaining my muscle mass, but I'd like to trim this fat that I've gained and then some. I don't want to lose the gains I've made by going into a cutting phase and become a lanky, skinny fellow, only to redo what I've already accomplished as far as muscle mass goes. I'd feel like these past three months would have been a waste of time if I started cutting and lost my muscle gains by doing so. Are the losses negligible or minimal?


I'm no expert, I'm just a beginner. Never worked out a day in my life and started the gym three months ago. In MY mind, implementing cardio would be nothing but beneficial to one's health, regardless of bulking.

Maybe I'm contradicting myself, but I want both.... I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Again, I do appreciate your responses and shedding some light on an ignorant fellow.


Well, you have run into a deal-breaker. You can't gain really gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. You will have to choose a certain goal.

I understand you are worried about losing your muscle gains while losing fat. Yes, you will lose some muscle, but look at this example -

Weeks 1-12, added 30 lbs of body mass, 20 lbs of muscle and 10 of fat.

Weeks 13-20 lost 10 lbs, 7 of fat and 3 of muscle

Weeks 21-24 - added 20 lbs of body mass, 15 of muscle and 5 of fat.

and so on.

You gained some, you lost some, but overall you have made an increase.

The numbers are arbitrary, my point is you need to take one step back to take two steps forward.

This is a constant process that works effectively through a lifestyle.

If you continue to gain muscle, some fat is coming with it. If you feel "sloppy", I'd suggest cutting because you likely will just feel sloppier if you continue to put on weight. Sure, you can minimize fat gains while bulking and minimize muscle loss while cutting, but the point still stands.

Nobody wants to lose their gains, but you must look at this through a long term perspective if you want to be bigger, healthier, stronger, etc.

Gotta have patience.
 
Yeah as people have said before, it is nearly impossible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time naturally. Just wasn't meant for humans to do so.
 
Well, I guess I must face the facts then and learn to cycle. I'm meeting with my trainer this weekend to assess my goals and hopefully he can shed some more insight. It's always nice to see those bumps on my arms getting bigger or seeing definition in my legs, but it's discouraging to see those fleshy bumps in my chest getting bigger too! I gain weight like a girl - it goes to my chest, thighs, and hips...

Thanks everyone.
 
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