Leg question to start a shit fight !!

[Arnold]

excerpt taken from:

ISSA : Fitness - The Complete Guide
Fredrick C. Hatfield, Ph.D. aka 'Dr. Squat'

Chapter 11.33

The quadriceps muscles can contract more efficiently when the feet are pointing slightly outward. They should never point straight ahead. If you squat with a very wide stance, your adductors tend to assist the quads. This can result in stress to the medial collateral ligament, abnormal cartilage-loading, and improper patellar-tracking.

Make sure that your knees point in the same direction your feet are pointing during the descent and ascent. Because of weak quads, many lifters inadvertently turn their knees inward during the ascent, placing great stress on the medial ligaments of the knee.

Although many top bodybuilders advocate a very close stance for the purpose of isolating the outer quads, this is a myth, and it places you at risk, particularly since you???ll have to use a lot of back to execute the lift, or (if you use heels) place great shear and compression on the knees. The safest way to squat is to put your feet in a position where they can generate the greatest opposing force to the weight (???the athletic position???).

 

[Dr. Pain]

Re: Reclaiming this thread......

Originally posted by Dr. Pain

So I quess I know "Squat"

Ok....while I have spoken out about how to work ones legs......here's a "position" I have as yet to state.....

We often hear people complain/comment that they can not squat because it hurts their back, or their knees........I often find this a function of biomechanics, bar palcement, leg and toe orietation, and body alignment during an exercise...

One of the most important issues for the knee is "Q" angle.......it is imperative that the knees track in line with the toes....so if you vary your stance (whch I don't recommend to a gr8 degree, more in a second)......toe angle becomes even more critical. ON HACKS, POWER MACHNE SQUATS (all kinds, esp Smith and BB), L/P and SQUATS, the KNEES MUST TRACK in line w/the TOES! JMHO
(This often occurs w/a 10% to 25% flare to the outside)

When squatting...to frequently I see beginner and intermediate lifters attempt "Heals Up", "Close Stance" and other stance variations....simply put...it fucks up their "grove", the power from the hole , the heel drive...and often results in a hip roll or compromised spinal alignment....not to mention undue stress on the body, diverting energy and power form the intended movement. As shoulder width or wider (Taller the wider) stance should be employed until squatting is second nature!


DP

Damn..Dr Squat has his shit together.......

 

[Arnold]

this part was the main reason I posted that:

"Although many top bodybuilders advocate a very close stance for the purpose of isolating the outer quads, this is a myth..."

and it was not really directed towards you.

 

[gopro]

Yeah...Freddie has built quite the physique! LOL. Anyway, who WAS that directed toward Mr Prince??

 

[Arnold]

Re: Re: Leg question to start a shit fight !!

Originally posted by gopro
To work outer quad you need to do all exercises like squats, leg presses, and hacks with a close foot stance.

You!

 

[gopro]

Re: Re: Re: Leg question to start a shit fight !!

Originally posted by Prince
You!

Figured that! Fred is a quack. He is only used to his wide stance, bent over, booty out, powerlifting squat, and wouldn't know how to hit the outer quads if he had a bat and an arrow.

 

[Arnold]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Leg question to start a shit fight !!

Originally posted by gopro
Figured that! Fred is a quack. He is only used to his wide stance, bent over, booty out, powerlifting squat, and wouldn't know how to hit the outer quads if he had a bat and an arrow.

Frederick C. Hatfield, MSS, Ph.D.,
ISSA Co-Founder and President, Dr. Hatfield, (a.k.a. "Dr. Squat"), holds a Ph.D. from Temple University with competency examinations taken in sport psychology, motor learning and sport sociology. He has provided research and development and marketing consultation to several nutritional and fitness equipment manufacturers and other fitness-related corporations around the world.He has been both a principal in, and consultant to, numerous commercial enterprises involved in fitness, nutrition, publishing and education since 1970, and has been directly involved in establishing and consulting for numerous health and fitness clubs across the U.S.

He has taught sports psychology, strength physiology, and physical education at the University of Wisconsin, Newark State College, Bowie State College, Temple University and the University of Illinois. He was a consultant to the U.S. Olympic Committee, the International Federation of Bodybuilders (IFBB), the West German Body Building Federation, Australian Powerlifting Federation, and CBS Sports. He was coach three times for the U.S. National Powerlifting team and a member of the executive committees of the U.S. Olympic Weightlifting Federation and U.S. Powerlifting Federation.

The founding editor of Sports Fitness magazine (now Men???s Fitness), he has written more than 60 books and over 200 articles on sports fitness, weight training and athletic nutrition. He is a former standout college gymnast, Mr. Teenage Connecticut, Mr. Atlantic Coast and Mr. Mid America in bodybuilding, Wisconsin and Connecticut weightlifting champion, broken over 30 world records as a powerlifter competing in five different weight divisions, and won the world Championships in powerlifting three times in three different weight divisions.

In 1987, at the age of 45, Hatfield established a world record in the squat at 1,014 pounds (255 body weight), the most anyone had ever lifted in the history of competition. His frequent world record-breaking performances in the squat have gained him the nickname of "Dr. Squat." He remains competitive in Masters Level Olympic Weightlifting, having represented the USA in the 1998 World Masters Games in Oregon.

 

[gopro]

Yeah, yeah Prince, I know alllllll about Mr Hatfield...too bad he's missing one small piece of info...that you can stimulate more vastus lateralis development with close stance squats, leg presses, and hacks, as well as toes in leg presses.

 

[Arnold]

I have my seminar this weekend with Tom Platz, I will be sure to ask him his opinion on this as well as the upper chest debate.

 

[gopro]

Go ahead, ask Tom! Ask Jerry too!

 

[Arnold]

oh, Tom Platz is not credible either?

it sounds like the only people that you will say are credible are the one's that agree with you.


as you can see in the pic Tom's quad development was lacking a bit.

 

[gopro]

Originally posted by Prince
oh, Tom Platz is not credible either?

it sounds like the only people that you will say are credible are the one's that agree with you.


as you can see in the pic Tom's quad development was lacking a bit.

I didn't say Tom wasn't credible. I respect Tom alot for the incredibly hard training bodybuilder he was. I also love the passion and drive he had to excel at his sport.

However, does this make him an authority on training...no really. Mr Olympia himself, Ronnie Coleman, says some of the most ridiculous things about training that I ever heard. You see, the problem is with most IFBB pros is the fact that 1) they are extremely gentically gifted and can build awesome muscle training almost any way, 2) they are taking boatloads of drugs and can get big by shoveling snow.

When I lived in California and had the opportunity to watch many pros train, I could not believe how haphazard some of it was. Most people would get hurt, overtrain, or simply kill themselves.

Anyway, I'm curious to see what Tom says. He is a very smart guy and I like him alot. But Prince, his leg development tells us nothing about his knowledge!

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by gopro
Mr Olympia himself, Ronnie Coleman, says some of the most ridiculous things about training that I ever heard.

Ironic. I think the same for a lot of stuff you have said.

But Prince, his leg development tells us nothing about his knowledge!

Let me get this right - if a skinny guy in a white lab coat says something you disagree with, then he must be wrong cause you're bigger. If a bigger guy than you says something you disagree with, then he must be wrong cause he's not wearing a white lab coat?

You seem to contradict yourself a lot, Eric.

 

[gopro]

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Ironic. I think the same for a lot of stuff you have said.



Let me get this right - if a skinny guy in a white lab coat says something you disagree with, then he must be wrong cause you're bigger. If a bigger guy than you says something you disagree with, then he must be wrong cause he's not wearing a white lab coat?

You seem to contradict yourself a lot, Eric.

Another stupid post, but what else should I expect at this point? Ok, well here we go (should I bother? hmmm, I'm bored, why not)...

First, I do not disagree with all "skinny guys in lab coats." I only say that 1- people in the "trenches" often have more REAL insight than those in the lab that have never picked up a weight, and 2- that just because a scientific study says something is "true" or "false" does not make it so.

Second...Ronnie Coleman and 99% of all pros and top top amateurs are GENETIC FREAKS that use tons and tons of physique enhancing chemicals...THAT makes them very very different from me and all other hard working natural for life bodybuilders that have to FIGHT for every gram of muscle they gain and constantly figure out ways to improve.

Yeah, I wish I could train for the Olympia for 5 months out of the year and place second like Kevin Levrone, LOL.

 

[Dr. Pain]

GP....at least I know what you mean

When you train/advise 1000's of people over the years......you get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't.

..for most people, if I asked...what do you do for a living, everyday....8-12 hours...and once you told me, if I asked..."Are you any good at what you do?" They answer is almost always.....Hell Yeah I'm good at what I do......

....the point here...is not who's right or wrong, who's science is better......especailly when you can prove or disprove so many things with studies nowadays.....it's more about who can make things work for the majority of people, the majority of the time...

 

[Arnold]

Eric, you just made it sound as though Tom Platz is nothing more than another pro bodybuilder. Hmmm....I agree that many pro bodybuiders are genetic steroid freaks and could not even define the word hypertrophy, let alone explain it on a cellular level, but om Platz teaches this stuff full time for the ISSA.

I thought you were certified thru the ISSA?

If so, do you realize that you just discredited the Co-Founder of the ISSA, Fred Hatfield, and now the ISSA Director of Bodybuilding for the ISSA, Tom Platz.

I do not understand. Who is credible in your eyes?

And DP, yes it's very important as to what "works" in the field on "real people", but there is also quite a bit of science that we can all accept, isn't there? And both you and gopro are discounting this.

oh and btw, I am on my lunch break right now from my ISSA certification seminar with Mr. Platz.

 

[Dr. Pain]

Prince, we are not discounting anything....you're the one discounting the EMG studies, and we use science...alot, as well as our experince.......myabe once you're certified and train a few hundred people, especially competitors......j/k..

Hope you're having a good time, tell Tom I took his advice and did leg extensions for 45 minutes str8 like he said to...and all I got out of it are HUGE legs

DP

 

[Arnold]

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
....you're the one discounting the EMG studies, and we use science...
DP

hmmm...please show me this post, cause I do not remember me "discounting" any EMG studies. I do remember me saying that they did not apply to the debate we were having at the time.

 

[Dr. Pain]

I've got a better Idea you go back, study your ass off, and you can find then when you get back......

I showed you tibia aligment on lateral and medial quad fiber activation, and I toid you there were additional studies on plantar alignment of soleus/gastrocnemius activation. The list go on...hand/grip alignment effect bicep/brachialis activation, as do neutral, parallel, wide and narrow grips....effect tissue activation on pectoral and lattisimus. exercises and hence their development, as well as the assisting muscle (group) activation and their development

DP

 

[ikam]

Bodybuilding is all about angles. Dr Pain and Go Pro are correct imo.

Instead of discrediting one another why don't we look at solving this problem by being open minded so we all can learn something?

 

[gopro]

Yes Prince...my first ever certification was through the ISSA. And seriously, I believe both Tom Platz and Fred Hatfield (especially Fred) to be extremely credible experts in the world of fitness. I believe that Tom was one of the more "thinking" bodybuilders, and paved the way for other great minds in the sport like Mentzer, Yates, Labrada, etc. Fred obviously knows a ton about powerlifting and many other subjects related to the fitness world.

There are many many experts out there that I listen too, respect, learn from, but at the same time, disagree with too on occassion. There are many things about bodybuilding, nutrition, supplements, hypertrophy, strength gains, etc, that I'm still unsure about...and therefore I will continue searching for the truth (which will come from science, yes, but more from the work I do in my "own lab"). The thing about this muscle shaping/working different parts of the muscle question is just one of those "experiments" I'm done with because I already have my answer...and nobody can prove otherwise to me on the subject.

 

[gopro]

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
GP....at least I know what you mean

When you train/advise 1000's of people over the years......you get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't.

..for most people, if I asked...what do you do for a living, everyday....8-12 hours...and once you told me, if I asked..."Are you any good at what you do?" They answer is almost always.....Hell Yeah I'm good at what I do......

....the point here...is not who's right or wrong, who's science is better......especailly when you can prove or disprove so many things with studies nowadays.....it's more about who can make things work for the majority of people, the majority of the time...

Thank you...thank goodness...and beautifully said

 

[Arnold]

Okay, well gopro and DP you two just keep patting each other on the back and posting this dogma.

gopro, disagreeing with certain issues and discrediting are completely different. You said Fred Hatfield is a quack and has no idea as to how you build the VL head. And you basically implied that Tom Platz was just another "iron head". Did you not?

As far as the whole "upper chest" debate you two are just perpetuating a myth, and because of your professions you've got several naive people in this thread believing it. It's the whole "I feel it" so it must be working syndrome, as several people here have already alluded to as they post in agreement with you guys.

DP I am constantly reading and studying bodybuilding, fitness, nutrition, etc. How about you?

 

[Dr. Pain]

Constantly Prince, Constantly

DP

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by gopro
Another stupid post, but what else should I expect at this point? Ok, well here we go (should I bother? hmmm, I'm bored, why not)...

First, I do not disagree with all "skinny guys in lab coats." I only say that 1- people in the "trenches" often have more REAL insight than those in the lab that have never picked up a weight, and 2- that just because a scientific study says something is "true" or "false" does not make it so.

Second...Ronnie Coleman and 99% of all pros and top top amateurs are GENETIC FREAKS that use tons and tons of physique enhancing chemicals...THAT makes them very very different from me and all other hard working natural for life bodybuilders that have to FIGHT for every gram of muscle they gain and constantly figure out ways to improve.

Yeah, I wish I could train for the Olympia for 5 months out of the year and place second like Kevin Levrone, LOL.

It wasn't a stupid post at all. It just seems that everytime you try to prove a point you either use big lads to back you up ("they must know what they're doing") and dismiss science ("Never picked up a weight in their lives") or you dismiss the big lads ("Genetic freaks ona boat load of drugs") and use the science.

Well, you rarely use the science in all fairness.

 

[Dr. Pain]

No point here....just an "Expert analogy"

I think it's funny how for 30 years...the "Experts" gave Dr. Atkins so much grief (science and political structure of the times).....then he is vidicated by science (ooh, is this new technology...I think not), although emirical results for over 30 years should has justified his techniques.....now in the news it is reports that the "Experts all agree, that Atkins is....the way to go"

Same freakin experts.....

DP

 

[gopro]

Holy shit Prince, now you're getting too emotional! When I called Hatfield a quack and Tom "just another ironhead (your words not mine)" I was being a little tongue in cheek. I was trying to keep a little sense of humor infused in this debate. I posted a little later, as you saw, what my true feeling are about Hatfield and Platz, but I guess you chose to ignore that.

Anyway, DP and I are hardly patting eachother on the back. In fact, we have openly disagreed about some things in the past...so we are not just agreeing just to agree. We just both work in this field for a living, probably up to 60 or more hours per week each, 365 days per year, and have observed the same phenomenon over and over.

Regardless of that. It really ticks me off that you say we are simply perpetuating a myth in this post, as it sound like it is being implied that we are misleading people, when in fact, we are TEACHING people. You asked us to be mods here for a reason...I assume because of our knowledge and experience, and since we do it for free, and for no other reason than to help those that are searching for answers, we certainly have NO REASON to mislead others.

You can feel anyway you wish about this issue, but I hope I don't find you in the gym using different angles, handles, and exercises for each bodypart, because that would be a waste of time.

Anyway, I think this topic ought to be finished as it is apparent nobody's mind is going to be changed...certainly not mine because as the sun rises each day, upper chests are being affected by incline presses.

Let's leave it like it is, because I don't want this to truly become a "shit fight."

 

[Rissole]

Originally posted by gopro
Let's leave it like it is, because I don't want this to truly become a "shit fight."

But that was the whole idea Gp

 

[gopro]

Originally posted by Rissole
But that was the whole idea Gp

And are you happy now??

 

[Arnold]

Originally posted by gopro
You asked us to be mods here for a reason...I assume because of our knowledge and experience, and since we do it for free, and for no other reason than to help those that are searching for answers, we certainly have NO REASON to mislead others.

Yes, this is true. But didn't you just say that you disagree with many "experts" on certain issues? Well, I guess I do to.

You can feel anyway you wish about this issue, but I hope I don't find you in the gym using different angles, handles, and exercises for each bodypart, because that would be a waste of time.

See, now I know that you are not reading my posts. I never said you should not use different angles, in fact if you go back in this thread I said just the opposite.


Anyway, I am done with this thread and debate.