Mormons face flak for backing Prop. 8

[KelJu]

In the LDS religion blacks were not able to hold the priesthood until by revelation this was changed in 1978. The official declaration is below. If you think you got enough game to get into a theological discussion about this BS, step to the plate.

Official Declaration 2

So you admit that tenets of your religion were wrong in retrospect. That doesn't lead you to believe that you might be wrong on this too?

 

[bio-chem]

So you admit that tenets of your religion were wrong in retrospect. That doesn't lead you to believe that you might be wrong on this too?

Well I would draw a comparison with declaration #2 to the change the early Christian church made in Acts chapter 10 where the gospel was no longer just preached to the Jews but then went to the gentiles as well, so while it was a change in policy I wouldn't say it was a fundamentally wrong tenet. Just that the time had come to make that change.

You bring up an interesting point though. I'm not sure how I would feel if the leaders of the church came out and now accepted and endorsed gay marriage. I don't expect it to happen, but I could see myself having a bit of 'crisis of faith' as many individuals did when the declaration #2 came out. I'm sorry I can't give you a better answer on that. It's something I'll have to think about a bit.

 

[Big Smoothy]

See, it's shit like this. Mate? Outside of the US that's analogous to "pal", but inside the US it makes you sound like a pirate.

There's no way that this shithead is an American.

I want to stay on topic of what KelJu and bio-chem are discussing about religion at the moment.

But for the records, DOMS, I am a naturally born American, but have lived overseas for 9 years. I do hangout with Americans, but also Aussies and Brits and I use their words at times, because I hear it so often.

Anyway, back to KelJu and bio-chem.

 

[User01]

yepp.

 

[GearsMcGilf]

Kill them all! Mormonism is nothing but a sex cult!

Mitt Romney 2012!!!

 

[bio-chem]

Kill them all! Mormonism is nothing but a sex cult!

Mitt Romney 2012!!!

have you recently been prescribed medication that you are not taking?

 

[DaMayor]

Kill them all! Mormonism is nothing but a sex cult!

Mitt Romney 2012!!!

and the Ass Clown of the Year award goes to...

 

[maniclion]

have you recently been prescribed medication that you are not taking?

yES

 

[KelJu]

Well I would draw a comparison with declaration #2 to the change the early Christian church made in Acts chapter 10 where the gospel was no longer just preached to the Jews but then went to the gentiles as well, so while it was a change in policy I wouldn't say it was a fundamentally wrong tenet. Just that the time had come to make that change.

You bring up an interesting point though. I'm not sure how I would feel if the leaders of the church came out and now accepted and endorsed gay marriage. I don't expect it to happen, but I could see myself having a bit of 'crisis of faith' as many individuals did when the declaration #2 came out. I'm sorry I can't give you a better answer on that. It's something I'll have to think about a bit.

But that doesn't really answer the question. If they were wrong before, what makes you think they aren't wrong now?

Replace blacks with gays, and it is the exact same situation all over again.
Please tell me you see this.

 

[bio-chem]

But that doesn't really answer the question. If they were wrong before, what makes you think they aren't wrong now?

Replace blacks with gays, and it is the exact same situation all over again.
Please tell me you see this.

I answered the question. they weren't wrong before, and they aren't wrong now. It's a timing thing. I gave an example from early Christianity that demonstrates this. I don't expect you to understand, or accept the answer. I also do not consider being black the same as being gay.

 

[maniclion]

I answered the question. they weren't wrong before, and they aren't wrong now. It's a timing thing. I gave an example from early Christianity that demonstrates this. I don't expect you to understand, or accept the answer. I also do not consider being black the same as being gay.

So for example if pederasty were to make a come back as it was in ancient Greece you would accept it because the times say it's all good?

 

[bio-chem]

So for example if pederasty were to make a come back as it was in ancient Greece you would accept it because the times say it's all good?

WTF? did you even get the reference I made to ACTS chapter 10? your question indicates you did not.

Christs mortal ministry, and the ministry of the apostles directly after His crucification was to the Jews. After Acts chapter 10 the gospel was preached to all peoples Jew and Gentile. they waited till it was time and they were directed by God to go to the gentiles.

It shouldn't be hard to see the relation that I've made here. your example with pederasty isn't relevant

 

[KelJu]

I answered the question. they weren't wrong before, and they aren't wrong now. It's a timing thing. I gave an example from early Christianity that demonstrates this. I don't expect you to understand, or accept the answer. I also do not consider being black the same as being gay.

I asked you what makes you think the church is right that something is wrong, and you avoided the question by saying you don't know how you would feel about it.

Its a timing thing? So by that logical, anything a culture believes at that time is right. What the Mormons believed then was right. What they believe now is right. Essentially, they are never wrong and you never have to question the validity of a specific belief.

Answer the question. If the core tenets of your faith change over time, what does that tell you about your faith? Come on dude. Answer the question.

 

[KelJu]

WTF? did you even get the reference I made to ACTS chapter 10? your question indicates you did not.

Christs mortal ministry, and the ministry of the apostles directly after His crucification was to the Jews. After Acts chapter 10 the gospel was preached to all peoples Jew and Gentile. they waited till it was time and they were directed by God to go to the gentiles.

It shouldn't be hard to see the relation that I've made here. your example with pederasty isn't relevant

His question made perfect sense.

 

[bio-chem]

I asked you what makes you think the church is right that something is wrong, and you avoided the question by saying you don't know how you would feel about it.

Its a timing thing? So by that logical, anything a culture believes at that time is right. What the Mormons believed then was right. What they believe now is right. Essentially, they are never wrong and you never have to question the validity of a specific belief.

Answer the question. If the core tenets of your faith change over time, what does that tell you about your faith? Come on dude. Answer the question.

I've absolutely answered the question. how much more plain can I be? Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean the answer has to change to suit what you like.

The gospel goes to all people willing to live it. In the time that the Lord has chosen. that is the core tenet and it has always been thus. The tenet has never changed.

 

[KelJu]

I've absolutely answered the question. how much more plain can I be? Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean the answer has to change to suit what you like.

The gospel goes to all people willing to live it. In the time that the Lord has chosen. that is the core tenet and it has always been thus. The tenet has never changed.

You avoided the question. You continue to avoid the question. Manic makes a perfect analogy, and it flies right over your head. Your not stupid, therefor your are either consciously or subconsciously running from the answer to the question. Hey Kelju, if a + b = c does a = c? Well I don't know how I feel about that. Your have to admit, that is a bullshit answer.

I'll spell it out for you. Of coarse the tenets of your religion change with time. All religious tenets change with time. That is because your own beliefs shape the interpretations. You decide what you believe, and then you bend the interpretations to fit your beliefs.

 

[bio-chem]

You avoided the question. You continue to avoid the question. Manic makes a perfect analogy, and it flies right over your head. Your not stupid, therefor your are either consciously or subconsciously running from the answer to the question. Hey Kelju, if a + b = c does a = c? Well I don't know how I feel about that. Your have to admit, that is a bullshit answer.

I'll spell it out for you. Of coarse the tenets of your religion change with time. All religious tenets change with time. That is because your own beliefs shape the interpretations. You decide what you believe, and then you bend the interpretations to fit your beliefs.

not at all. that is your interpretation of religion and thats fine. like i've said I don't expect you to understand. God is unchanging, the plan of God is unchanging. unfortunately man has used religion too often to try and control others, and man has tried to change God. sometimes due to his own ignorance and misunderstanding, and all too often for much more nefarious reasons. We must change our understanding to match God, not change God to match our understanding.

In this case Acts chapter 10 and declaration #2 would be completely different instances than if homosexuality was now accepted. I've already said that i don't accept the premise that gays and blacks are interchangeable in this analogy. I don't accept the premise.

to get back to your original question. How would I feel/what would I do if the Church came out and now accepted homosexual marriage? again I can not give an answer other than having a 'crisis of faith' it would be a big challenge for me. I do not pretend to fully understand the thoughts of God, or his plan. It would be a major challenge of my understanding.

accept that or not. again, Kelju it doesn't matter dude.

 

[KelJu]

not at all. that is your interpretation of religion and thats fine. like i've said I don't expect you to understand. God is unchanging, the plan of God is unchanging. unfortunately man has used religion too often to try and control others, and man has tried to change God. sometimes due to his own ignorance and misunderstanding, and all too often for much more nefarious reasons. We must change our understanding to match God, not change God to match our understanding.

In this case Acts chapter 10 and declaration #2 would be completely different instances than if homosexuality was now accepted. I've already said that i don't accept the premise that gays and blacks are interchangeable in this analogy. I don't accept the premise.

to get back to your original question. How would I feel/what would I do if the Church came out and now accepted homosexual marriage? again I can not give an answer other than having a 'crisis of faith' it would be a big challenge for me. I do not pretend to fully understand the thoughts of God, or his plan. It would be a major challenge of my understanding.

accept that or not. again, Kelju it doesn't matter dude.

Yes! That is the answer. If your church changed their beliefs about something part of the core during your lifetime, you would have a crisis of faith. You would realize that the core practices of your church are not the word of God, but instead simply man made rules of conduct.

It boils down to fear, not God.

 

[DOMS]

Yes! That is the answer. If your church changed their beliefs about something part of the core during your lifetime, you would have a crisis of faith. You would realize that the core practices of your church are not the word of God, but instead simply man made rules of conduct.

It boils down to fear, not God.

You do realize that the gospel wasn't preached to non-Jews until Jesus said it should be that way, right? Things do change.

 

[KelJu]

You do realize that the gospel wasn't preached to non-Jews until Jesus said it should be that way, right? Things do change.

Absolutely! Things change. So why the fuck do people resort to ancient text as an excuse for discrimination in the 21st century?

 

[DOMS]

Absolutely! Things change. So why the fuck do people resort to ancient text as an excuse for discrimination in the 21st century?

I don't think you got my point.

 

[KelJu]

I don't think you got my point.

No I got the point. I was only referring to the "things change" part.

 

[jmorrison]

I will attempt to condense my thoughts into a few brief points.

1. There is no legitmate argument for prohibiting same sex marriage outside of religious views. Basic separation of church and state should let anyone with a 5th grade education know immediately that putting legislation into effect for religious purposes is wrong and against everything our country is founded upon. People using the "our country is founded on God" argument are hypocritical in the extreme. Yes our country was founded on basic Christian principles. It was also founded on freedom from religious persecution.

2. Allowing gay marriage does not infringe upon anyones rights. In the example Doms used, I couldn't agree more. A church should NEVER be forced to marry ANYONE that they do not believe in marrying. However, for gay marriage to be recognized by the state, and to allow them to be married by churches that support them is in no way affecting anyone in any negative way other than offending their sensibilities. To which I say...grow up. If you don't like it, don't look. Basic kindergarten rules.

3. "The voice of the people" argument is utter garbage. If there was a nationwide poll in the 60's as to whether blacks and whites should be allowed to marry, I am pretty sure everyone here knows how that would go too. That doesn't make it right.

I am tired of seeing peoples rights infringed upon by the majority. You don't have to like it, you don't have to participate in it, and you don't have to follow their belief system, so why in the world should they have to follow yours?

I won't even comment on the pedophile comment. That is just stupid. We are discussing the rights of consenting adults.

If what other people are doing is not hurting you, then why feel the need to impose your beliefs on them? Its not like the gays of America are pounding on the doors of the Mormon churches demanding to be married there. If the Mormon (or any other church) does not support gay marriage, they don't have to accept them or marry them!

This is pure discrimination, plain, black and white, and unhidden.

You feel that marriage is an important part of life and the pursuit of love, don't you think that many Gays feel the same way?

 

[Pirate!]

Basic separation of church and state should let anyone with a 5th grade education know immediately that putting legislation into effect for religious purposes is wrong and against everything our country is founded upon.

“Separation of Church and State” deals with a church organization having no legal authority over the people. The key word is organization. Nowhere does it say to separate your values from your vote. If a principle taught to separate your personal convictions from your actions, then your definition of Separation of Church and State would become void, as your actions would no longer be linked to your belief that Church and State should be separated. Therefore, your belief that gay marriage should be legal would yield no action on your part. If you took action, you would be violating the principle you propose, which states that your beliefs should not influence legislation.

Here is what some people fail to understand:

1) Every belief system is a religion, even if the adherents profess to not be religious. Everyone has a religion, even if it's their own unique belief system. That includes you.

2) People do what they believe is right. Just because some recognize their values as being “religious” does not make those values more or less legitimate as someone who bases their values on science, logic, astrology or any other methodology. At the core, a belief is a belief.

The comparison between racial discrimination and redefining marriage is absurd, and an overwhelmingly large percentage of blacks find that comparison horribly offensive.

Anyone who has read the Bible has observed that certain groups of people played different roles and most were never invited. No Christian believes Christ was wrong for saying who should teach whom and when. Bio-chem’s example of the change of policy in the administration of the gospel is a good example of how things change. The Bill of Rights is another example. It was already on the program for a later date. This doesn’t mean that Christ or a Church led by Him was wrong. Otherwise, everyone in the Old Testament would be wrong for obeying the Law of Moses. It means there is an order for things to be done.

Personally, I don’t believe government has the final say on who is and is not married. Obviously, they do have the final say when it comes to legal rights. I think the legal rights issue should be such that any consenting adults can enter into the same contract for rights. Note that marriage is not a right.

People would do well to consider that everyone wants what they believe is right and just. The majority rule is in place for good reason. The liberal belief that the masses don’t know what’s best and therefore need the elite to make decisions for them is offensive, oppressive and undemocratic.

 

[bio-chem]

Absolutely! Things change. So why the fuck do people resort to ancient text as an excuse for discrimination in the 21st century?

the tenet is as I said, in the due time of the Lord the gospel will go to everyone who is willing to live it.

pre Acts 10 that was the Jews, post Acts chapter 10 is the Jews and Gentiles. If you want to look at that as a change thats fine, the "change" is not coming from man however.

you have yet to show how blacks and gays are the same and should be viewed as such.

I'm not using ancient text as an excuse for discrimination.

 

[DOMS]

If what other people are doing is not hurting you, then why feel the need to impose your beliefs on them? Its not like the gays of America are pounding on the doors of the Mormon churches demanding to be married there. If the Mormon (or any other church) does not support gay marriage, they don't have to accept them or marry them!

This is pure discrimination, plain, black and white, and unhidden.

You don't seem to know the most important mitigating fact in this issue.

The Mormons didn't throw themselves behind Prop 8 just because they don't believe in gay marriage. The problem was actually caused by the gays. They started to have the right to get married, but that wasn't good enough. If a church refused to perform a ceremony for them, they would sue the church in an effort to force them to do so. That was the reason that the Mormons, and other Christian churches, got behind Prop 8.

Boo-fucking-hoo.

So your premise (the part that I quoted) is entirely wrong.

 

[bio-chem]

???Separation of Church and State??? deals with a church organization having no legal authority over the people. The key word is organization. Nowhere does it say to separate your values from your vote. If a principle taught to separate your personal convictions from your actions, then your definition of Separation of Church and State would become void, as your actions would no longer be linked to your belief that Church and State should be separated. Therefore, your belief that gay marriage should be legal would yield no action on your part. If you took action, you would be violating the principle you propose, which states that your beliefs should not influence legislation.

Here is what some people fail to understand:

1) Every belief system is a religion, even if the adherents profess to not be religious. Everyone has a religion, even if it's their own unique belief system. That includes you.

2) People do what they believe is right. Just because some recognize their values as being ???religious??? does not make those values more or less legitimate as someone who bases their values on science, logic, astrology or any other methodology. At the core, a belief is a belief.

The comparison between racial discrimination and redefining marriage is absurd, and an overwhelmingly large percentage of blacks find that comparison horribly offensive.

Anyone who has read the Bible has observed that certain groups of people played different roles and most were never invited. No Christian believes Christ was wrong for saying who should teach whom and when. Bio-chem???s example of the change of policy in the administration of the gospel is a good example of how things change. The Bill of Rights is another example. It was already on the program for a later date. This doesn???t mean that Christ or a Church led by Him was wrong. Otherwise, everyone in the Old Testament would be wrong for obeying the Law of Moses. It means there is an order for things to be done.

Personally, I don???t believe government has the final say on who is and is not married. Obviously, they do have the final say when it comes to legal rights. I think the legal rights issue should be such that any consenting adults can enter into the same contract for rights. Note that marriage is not a right.

People would do well to consider that everyone wants what they believe is right and just. The majority rule is in place for good reason. The liberal belief that the masses don???t know what???s best and therefore need the elite to make decisions for them is offensive, oppressive and undemocratic.

well said, I wish I had the talent to explain things in such a concise way.

 

[DOMS]

The comparison between racial discrimination and redefining marriage is absurd, and an overwhelmingly large percentage of blacks find that comparison horribly offensive.

It's interesting that it was the blacks, not the Mormons, that made the passing of Prop 8 a reality.

I saw the gays protest at Mormon temples, but I've yet to see them protest in Compton.

 

[jmorrison]

Every belief system is a religion, even if the adherents profess to not be religious. Everyone has a religion, even if it's their own unique belief system. That includes you.

Semantics. If my belief system is a religion, then I guess I follow the church of "Leave people alone if they aren't hurting you". I never stated my religion or claimed a lack of it. For your information, not that it holds any bearing on the conversation, I am a Christian, non-denominational, although I was raised Methodist. I don't think for one second that my belief system should affect my fellow Muslim, Jewish, Agnostic, or Atheistic american neighbors.

People do what they believe is right. Just because some recognize their values as being “religious” does not make those values more or less legitimate as someone who bases their values on science, logic, astrology or any other methodology. At the core, a belief is a belief.

Wrong. A belief is a belief until you push it on others. Then it becomes oppressive.

The comparison between racial discrimination and redefining marriage is absurd, and an overwhelmingly large percentage of blacks find that comparison horribly offensive.

If you honestly can't see a DIRECT comparison between Blacks and Whites dating and marrying, then you are being deliberately obtuse. In many parts of the country this is still not acceptable behavior, and I would bet that in many states, a vote whether to make it legal/illegal would swing the way of illegal. That doesn't mean it is right.

Personally, I don’t believe government has the final say on who is and is not married. Obviously, they do have the final say when it comes to legal rights. I think the legal rights issue should be such that any consenting adults can enter into the same contract for rights. Note that marriage is not a right.

So what is the debate? You are ok with a "civil union" but opposed to the word "marriage" by your own definition, religious or otherwise? What about THEIR definition of marriage? What about THEIR religious beliefs? What if a gay couple believes that they need to be married in the eyes of God if they want to live as partners? Who are you to criticize or take away from their religious beliefs? Or is your religion right and everyone elses wrong?

People would do well to consider that everyone wants what they believe is right and just. The majority rule is in place for good reason. The liberal belief that the masses don’t know what’s best and therefore need the elite to make decisions for them is offensive, oppressive and undemocratic.

Bullshit. This argument holds no water. Support of the majority is only taken out and waved around when it supports the wavers belief system. Once again, don't dismiss my point about interracial dating and a vote on that. it's not a liberal belief that we should not vote on how people live their lives, it is an American belief.

As a Christian, do I agree with gays living together as partners? Well...no. Do I think that they should be able to come to my church and get married there? No...my church does not believe in gay marriage. Do I think how I feel about this should affect the quality of life for the average gay american? Of course not, its none of my fucking business. Should they be able to be married in a church (by definition an organized group of like-minded religious individuals) that supports Gay marriage? Of course! To say no is the same as saying that I don't think two people from any other religion should be able to get married outside of my personal beliefs.

Liberal...for fucks sake don't take it there. I am a white american living in Alabama in my 30's who works in the oil industry, and is over the 100k per year mark. I am the poster child for conservation. I just don't allow my religious or political beliefs sway how I feel about basic American rights. I took an oath to defend the constitution. Not just the parts I like.

 

[jmorrison]

You don't seem to know the most important mitigating fact in this issue.

The Mormons didn't throw themselves behind Prop 8 just because they don't believe in gay marriage. The problem was actually caused by the gays. They started to have the right to get married, but that wasn't good enough. If a church refused to perform a ceremony for them, they would sue the church in an effort to force them to do so. That was the reason that the Mormons, and other Christian churches, got behind Prop 8.

Boo-fucking-hoo.

So your premise (the part that I quoted) is entirely wrong.

Doms, once again, I couldn't agree more with you on this point. In no way shape form or fashion am I saying that ANY church should be forced to marry ANYONE that they do not wish to marry. I was only using the Mormon church as an example because it kicked off the debate. You can substitute it for any religious institution opposed to gay marriage.