Need Help - Terrible Nutrient Partitioning

[troubador]

I've been at it for almost ten years now and have little to show for it. I've been on this board for what will be seven years next month. I'm tall and lean. I'm not a classic hard gainer though. I can gain weight but for the most part I only seem to bulk from skinny to skinny fat and cut back to skinny. Training wise, I've tried the basic 3x10 full body, 'Power, Rep Range, Shock', Push/Pull splits, 'Starting Strength' and have just started HST. My diet has been very strict the last two years and so has my training. I've come to the realization that I probably have terrible genetics for bodybuilding. I need help!

Current Stats: 6'5", 197lbs, 13-14% bf (after cutting from around 18-19% at 211lbs)

Current Diet Macros: 2470 calories, 41/25/34 (P/C/F). That's 263g Protien, 169g Carbs, 101g Fat.

I have it completely planned out but here's a quick rundown...
Protein and Fat sources are the typical Chicken, Eggs, some Steak, fish oil, olive oil, just one protein shake on non workout days(3 on workout days).

Carb Sources are 2 servings Oatmeal, 1 serving Bran Cereal, Plum, low sugar yogurt, 1 cup skim milk.

Current Supplements: Multivitamin, B6, B12, Vitamin C, Carlon's Fish Oil(4.8g per day), Creatine, BCAA's and Forskolin during cut, Jack3d sometimes.
After watching some of Mike Mahler's videos I recently added 30mg Zinc Citrate, 400mg Magnesium Citrate, EndoAmp Max, Melatonin and Korean Ginseng.

I guess I should clarify that about two years ago I had an esophageal dilation done; it resulted in GI issues and I couldn't eat much for weeks and l dropped down to about 168lbs. I've mostly bulked since then up to 211 and just recently cut to 197. So I have made progress the last two years but I'm back to around the best body I could reach previously. I don't plan on winning any contests but I would like to gain some muscle.

I'm not sure what else I can improve as far as training and diet. Two things I haven't tried are Carb Cycling and AAS. So I'm wondering if Carb Cycling will help and if there's anything else I can do? Any help is appreciated.

 

[jagbender]

How old are you?

 

[troubador]

how old are you?

28

 

[sosc]

Do you have an accurate journal? I track the following:

• weight, reps, sets
• body weight, body fat
• supplementation

It helps to make sure that I'm on track and challenging
myself appropriately. Usually any problem can be made
apparent with sufficient data and analysis.

For instance, I've found by trial and error that in order to
make consistent progression my body responds best to
weight that target 10 reps.

When I reach 10 reps, its time to increase the weight.
I increase only 5 lbs at a time; adding any more
becomes detrimental.

I saw that with heavier weights my progress slowed down
significantly as it takes a lot more force to squeeze
additional distance.

 

[troubador]

Do you have an accurate journal? I track the following:

• weight, reps, sets
• body weight, body fat
• supplementation

Yeah, I keep a notebook with me at the gym and write everything down. I also track my weight. I also track bf% but with cheap calipers(I can at least get consistent results to track changes).

 

[sosc]

What is your current goal? I plugged your stats into
the Harris-Benedict Equation and found that your
BMR is 1980 calories.

Using this is a starting point for cutting is not a bad
idea.

 

[sosc]

Yeah, I keep a notebook with me at the gym and write everything down. I also track my weight. I also track bf% but with cheap calipers(I can at least get consistent results to track changes).

Excuse all the replies... it probably looks messy.

I guess the big questions are:

Have you been making gains in the gym?
What has worked best?

All of your data should provide excellent insight into your
growth patterns. Most importantly, it should show where you
aren't making gains. When things aren't increasing for a given
exercise, its time to change things up.

Each muscle has its own preference. You mention different training
styles: there isn't anything wrong with using a different one for each
muscle group. Track what works best. I don't think anyone
can optimize as well as you can.

 

[Built]

What is your current goal? I plugged your stats into
the Harris-Benedict Equation and found that your
BMR is 1980 calories.

Using this is a starting point for cutting is not a bad
idea.

WTF? BMR is the calories required to lie in bed and do nothing but breathe. This is not a baseline for cutting.

troubador, I look forward to hearing about your training, in detail.

 

[sosc]

WTF? BMR is the calories required to lie in bed and do nothing but breathe. This is not a baseline for cutting.

troubador, I look forward to hearing about your training, in detail.

I've been at about my BMR for about three weeks, and losing
2% body fat every ten days. During this time my rep
increases have stayed consistent at 3-6 reps per exercise.

 

[Built]

How much do you weigh, what is your bodyfat, and how many pounds have you lost? What macros are you running - because on, say, a PSMF, you're right, you'd be fine - for a little while, anyway.

 

[sosc]

How much do you weigh, what is your bodyfat, and how many pounds have you lost? What macros are you running - because on, say, a PSMF, you're right, you'd be fine - for a little while, anyway.

* July 05: 164 lbs, 16.4% bf
* July 15: 162 lbs, 14.6% bf
* July 25: 161 lbs, 12.7% bf

Calories: ~1700
Macronutrients: Protein 128g, Fat 19g-57g & Carb 170g-225g

On some days I eat more than others, but not by much.
The success that I've had so far is most likely attributed to:

(a) Eating mostly protein-rich foods during the day
(b) Workout in the afternoon, followed by a mixture of HIIT/LIT
(c) Minimal amount of carbs pre/post workout
(d) Carb foods late at night a few hours after my workout

Overall I feel pretty good and feel like I follow something
like this for a long time.

 

[Built]

(Forgive me - I replaced your listed macronutrient percentages with grams so we can all follow along - the percentages don't mean anything but the grams do.)

Okay. According to your parameter estimates, you began carrying about 137 lbs lean mass, eating less than a gram of protein per pound lean mass while training, running what appears to be about a 700-calorie-a-day deficit.

If the weight you lost was only fat, in 20 days, you should have dropped about 4 lbs.

You lost one pound less than this, which implies to me that either you ate more than 1700 calories a day, or your maintenance is lower than the 2400 calories a day I guesstimated to be your maintenance calories. (Or you need to take a dump. )

You report that you lost 3 lbs over this period, ending with 12.7% bodyfat. This would imply that in 20 days, lifting weights on BMR calories and less than one gram of protein per pound lean mass to keep you nitrogen-positive, you somehow managed to pack on 4 lbs of lean mass in three weeks while dropping 7 lbs of bodyfat.


Unless you're on a SHITLOAD of gear and/or are an utterly novice lifter, this is not physiologically possible in three weeks.

I suspect your bodyfat estimation is somewhat flawed.

Now I'm not trying to flame you here, okay? I'm trying to help - I don't want to see you starve, nor do I want to see you mess yourself up.

May I ask why you decided to each such a low-protein, low-calorie diet - and how you assessed your body composition?

* July 05: 164 lbs, 16.4% bf (137 lbs lean mass, 27 lbs fat mass)
* July 15: 162 lbs, 14.6% bf (138 lbs lean mass, 24 lbs fat mass)
* July 25: 161 lbs, 12.7% bf (141 lbs lean mass, 20 lbs fat mass)

Calories: ~1700
Macronutrients: Protein 128g, Fat 19g-57g & Carb 170g-225g

On some days I eat more than others, but not by much.
The success that I've had so far is most likely attributed to:

(a) Eating mostly protein-rich foods during the day
(b) Workout in the afternoon, followed by a mixture of HIIT/LIT
(c) Minimal amount of carbs pre/post workout
(d) Carb foods late at night a few hours after my workout

Overall I feel pretty good and feel like I follow something
like this for a long time.

 

[sassy69]

I'm baffled about how you're trying to build muscle w/o really fueling to build muscle. You're 10" taller than me, but you're only 30-40 lb heavier. I would worry less about the bodyfat if you're trying to add muscle. I'm guessing you've got a monstrous metabolism maybe, if you're having that much trouble gaining lean muscle. My concern is that you're sacrificing muscle mass to drop your bodyfat - but was you drop muscle, even if you drop fat, your actual bodyfat % won't necessarily drop.

Two questions, including Built's question about how you measure bodyfat:
- You said you use cheap calipers for skin fold measure of bodyfat - do you do it yourself or get someone to do it for you? I've tried doing it myself and its pretty much impossible if you want to do a reasonably accurate 7-9 pt measure. The 'cheap calipers' are still sufficient to track relative changes- but you have to be able to get enough point measures to make it worth while. IMO the 3pt measure is sort of a waste of time.

- You mentioned some GI issues - do you still have any of those issues?

If not - I think your issue is all in your diet.

 

[sosc]

(Forgive me - I replaced your listed macronutrient percentages with grams so we can all follow along - the percentages don't mean anything but the grams do.)

Okay. According to your parameter estimates, you began carrying about 137 lbs lean mass, eating less than a gram of protein per pound lean mass while training, running what appears to be about a 700-calorie-a-day deficit.

If the weight you lost was only fat, in 20 days, you should have dropped about 4 lbs.

You lost one pound less than this, which implies to me that either you ate more than 1700 calories a day, or your maintenance is lower than the 2400 calories a day I guesstimated to be your maintenance calories. (Or you need to take a dump. )

You report that you lost 3 lbs over this period, ending with 12.7% bodyfat. This would imply that in 20 days, lifting weights on BMR calories and less than one gram of protein per pound lean mass to keep you nitrogen-positive, you somehow managed to pack on 4 lbs of lean mass in three weeks while dropping 7 lbs of bodyfat.


Unless you're on a SHITLOAD of gear and/or are an utterly novice lifter, this is not physiologically possible in three weeks.

I suspect your bodyfat estimation is somewhat flawed.

Now I'm not trying to flame you here, okay? I'm trying to help - I don't want to see you starve, nor do I want to see you mess yourself up.

May I ask why you decided to each such a low-protein, low-calorie diet - and how you assessed your body composition?

The body fat numbers are coming from the
Accu-Measure plastic calipers. I always try to select
the same spot, and measure 3-6 times until the number
is consistent.

My weight 161 lbs = 73 kg
At 1.8 g/kg of protein: 73 kg * 1.8 g/kg = 131.4 g

From what I can see my protein intake is acceptable.
I choose my BMR calories as a starting point/test to
determine where I need to be in order to drop body fat.
Body fat has been decreasing, strength has been increasing,
and I feel pretty good. As of right now I don't see a
reason to change this.

I'm not new to weight lifting, but my body fat is high.
I own books that document body fat losses of 1-3 lbs/week
and mass increases of 1-3 lbs/month as common.
So far I'm right along this track.

These are the supplements that I take:

(1) Optimum Nutrition Any Whey
(2) GNC Creatine Monohydrate
(3) Alive! Multivitamin
(4) Spectrum Essentials Fish Oil

Soon I'll be adding Barlean's Total Omega.

... no problem on the edits


troubador sorry for the cross talk. I hope that this benefits
your program as well.

 

[Built]

The body fat numbers are coming from the
Accu-Measure plastic calipers. I always try to select
the same spot, and measure 3-6 times until the number
is consistent.

My weight 161 lbs = 73 kg
At 1.8 g/kg of protein: 73 kg * 1.8 g/kg = 131.4 g

From what I can see my protein intake is acceptable.

For a sedentary person to stay alive, yes. For a man dieting at his basal metabolic rate, not even close.

I choose my BMR calories as a starting point/test to
determine where I need to be in order to drop body fat.

I know, but why did you pick BMR? It's not advisable.

Body fat has been decreasing, strength has been increasing,
and I feel pretty good. As of right now I don't see a
reason to change this.

Other than being warned of muscle loss and that you risk messing yourself up by trying to diet down to lean this way? Listen - you have listened to people who were selling you something. I am not selling you anything. I've just done a lot of things wrong for a long time, and would prefer to offer you advise that will spare you the problems I developed before I learned how to do things right. My metabolism is screwed. I am on thyroid replacement for life. It's manageable, but really, why put yourself though this if you don't have to?

I'm not new to weight lifting, but my body fat is high.
I own books that document body fat losses of 1-3 lbs/week

Which books, and which diet and training protocols?

and mass increases of 1-3 lbs/month as common.

For a young man running a caloric surplus, yes, for a short while. For anyone who isn't male, young and possibly on testosterone, no. Ask anyone for their real-life experience with this. Unless you're a novice and quite obese when you start out, you won't drop 3 lbs of fat and gain 3 lbs of muscle in a month. I'm sorry, but you just won't.

So far I'm right along this track.

So far, you're delusional if you think this is the track you're on.

These are the supplements that I take:

(1) Optimum Nutrition Any Whey

This is fine - it's not so much a supplement as a food btw.

(2) GNC Creatine Monohydrate

Also fine. 5g a day.

(3) Alive! Multivitamin

A multi is good cheap insurance.

(4) Spectrum Essentials Fish Oil

This is a little low in EPA/DHA - you'll need to take 13 a day to get the 3g EPA/DHA I get from 10g of Kirkland fish oil, from Costco. I pay $15 for 300 caps, which lasts me a month.

Soon I'll be adding Barlean's Total Omega.

I never recommend 3-6-9 to anyone; we get way too much 6 and 9 in our diets. It's 3 that's out of whack. I'd personally avoid this one.

... no problem on the edits


troubador sorry for the cross talk. I hope that this benefits
your program as well.

Listen - do what you want. If you believe this is healthy, knock yourself out. Just don't say we didn't warn you.

 

[sosc]

I though about your concerns, and did a little bit of looking
around but didn't find much to backup your claims.
Problems seem to exist at lower numbers, however.
I do not classify my diet as the VLCD. Remember I am not
even including pre/post workout intake.

Numerous reports actually encourage a lower calorie intake
because it has been seen to increase life expectancy.

Obesity, Weight Loss, and Very Low-Calorie Diets (VLCDs)

Low-Calorie Diet May Lead to Longer Life

Why A Low-Calorie Diet Extends Lifespans

Very-low-calorie diet

New Rules For Low-Calorie Diet

I own the following books. I will review them over the next
few days to verify their calorie suggestions. But from what
I remember I'm not off by much.

The Bodybuilder's Nutrition Book by Franco Columbu

Better Than Steroids by Dr Warren Willey

Nutrient Timing by John Ivy & Robert Portman

Power Eating by Susan Kleiner & Maggie Greenwood-Robinson

Build Muscle, Lose Fat, Look Great by Stuart McRobert

Serious Strength Training by Tudor Bompa, Mauro Di Pasquale, & Lorenzo Cornacchia

 

[troubador]

troubador, I look forward to hearing about your training, in detail.

I just started a HST routine.

Sets are two for each exercise.
Reps are 15 for 2 weeks, then 10 for 2 weeks, then 5(Basic HST feature).

I workout 3 days a week, alternating these two workouts.
Workout A:
Squat
Leg Curls
Bench
Chinups
Rev. db flys
Db shrugs
Alternating Db curls
Db tri extensions
standing calf raises

Workout B:
Deadlift
Leg Extensions
Dips
Bent Rows
Rev Machine Flys
Military Press
Bb curls
Cable Tri pushdown (supinated)
Seated calve raises

If you not familiar with HST, there's a built in progression. Determine the max for the rep range you're working with and plan out so that each workout you increase the weight until you reach your max in the final workouts of each 2 week block.

Before HST I was doing Starting Strength as a way to get back to the basics and make sure I wasn't doing too much volume...

Again 3 days a week alternating two workouts.
Workout A:
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Deadlift 1x5
Dips 2x8

Workout B:
Squat 3x5
Military Press 3x5
Bent Rows 3x5
Chin Ups 2x8

 

[troubador]

I'm baffled about how you're trying to build muscle w/o really fueling to build muscle. You're 10" taller than me, but you're only 30-40 lb heavier. I would worry less about the bodyfat if you're trying to add muscle.

That's the approach I took on my last bulk attempt and I did gain weight but I ended up at almost 20% bf. It seems like once I go past 200lbs I gain mostly fat.

Two questions, including Built's question about how you measure bodyfat:

I do it myself. I don't know anyone competent enough to do it.
And yes, I am doing the 3pt measurement.

You mentioned some GI issues - do you still have any of those issues?

Yeah IBS, but I have this well controlled. It's not an issue other than occasionally feeling bloated.

 

[troubador]

If not - I think your issue is all in your diet.

That's why I was thinking about carb cycling. I also have wondered if and to what extent genetic or hormone factors are holding me back.

 

[sassy69]

That's why I was thinking about carb cycling. I also have wondered if and to what extent genetic or hormone factors are holding me back.

What did your bulker look like that brought you up to 20%? I'd be looking at a lean bulker vs this focus on dieting - your goal is to gain muscle but drop your bodyfat correct? You don't have a lot of muscle, thus your bodyfat is higher. Dieting, sort of by definition, means you're going to give up some muscle.

What would happen if you just upped your protein intake and trained balls to the wall? I'd say up your carbs as well to support a balls-to-the-wall training session, but generally just up your intake. Not to the point of getting sloppy but to let yourself grow. Increased muscle mass will also work towards dropping your bodyfat %. I'd also not spend too much time relying on the calipers for "progress" but rather just watch how your clothes fit. If you're building muscle mass they should be getting tighter in the arms, quads, chest. If you're getting fatter, they'd start getting tighter in the waist.

 

[Built]

I though about your concerns, and did a little bit of looking
around but didn't find much to backup your claims.
Problems seem to exist at lower numbers, however.
I do not classify my diet as the VLCD. Remember I am not
even including pre/post workout intake.

I did not know this. With pre and post workout intake added in, what were your calories and macros?

 

[troubador]

What did your bulker look like that brought you up to 20%? I'd be looking at a lean bulker vs this focus on dieting - your goal is to gain muscle but drop your bodyfat correct? You don't have a lot of muscle, thus your bodyfat is higher. Dieting, sort of by definition, means you're going to give up some muscle.

What would happen if you just upped your protein intake and trained balls to the wall? I'd say up your carbs as well to support a balls-to-the-wall training session, but generally just up your intake. Not to the point of getting sloppy but to let yourself grow. Increased muscle mass will also work towards dropping your bodyfat %. I'd also not spend too much time relying on the calipers for "progress" but rather just watch how your clothes fit. If you're building muscle mass they should be getting tighter in the arms, quads, chest. If you're getting fatter, they'd start getting tighter in the waist.

I had a written diet for bulking. Looked a lot like what I'm doing now, mostly just more carbs. I was pretty good about following it too; not super strict but not sloppy either.

My long term goal is to gain muscle mass with a relatively low bf%. I don't even mean contest low body fat % either. I've read multiple times that once your bf% gets high your nutrient partitioning gets worse. I know I can't do both at the same time(recomp), I have a hard enough time doing either(bulking or cutting). I was willing to accept my bf% creeping up on a bulk but 18+% is a bit too much I think(I had to buy fat pants).

I'm liking the HST so far, those 15 rep workouts are pretty balls to the wall. I think the Starting Strength volume was a little low for me. I'm also planning on running Anabeta as I transition back to bulking.

 

[sosc]

I know, but why did you pick BMR? It's not advisable.

Fundamentally Total Calorie Needs = (BMR Calories) + (Activities)

Outside of a trip to the gym, most people are sedentary.
I believe there is also a thermogenic component, but I
ignore that.

 

[Curt James]

I just started a HST routine.

Sets are two for each exercise.
Reps are 15 for 2 weeks, then 10 for 2 weeks, then 5(Basic HST feature).

I workout 3 days a week, alternating these two workouts.
Workout A:
Squat
Leg Curls
Bench
Chinups
Rev. db flys
Db shrugs
Alternating Db curls
Db tri extensions
standing calf raises

Workout B:
Deadlift
Leg Extensions
Dips
Bent Rows
Rev Machine Flys
Military Press
Bb curls
Cable Tri pushdown (supinated)
Seated calve raises

(snip)

Frank Calta, former Mr. Pennsylvania and Mr. Florida, favored that exact routine scheme... alternating an A workout and a B workout on a Monday/Wednesday/Friday schedule.

You need to gain strength. Concentrate on the compound movements and drop the unnecessary exercises.

Try 3 days a week, alternating these two workouts.

Workout A:
Squat
Leg Curls
Dumbbell Rows

Workout B:
Deadlift
Bench
Military Press

And that rep scheme thing? Throw it out the window. Pyramid 15, 10, 8, 6 or stick to straight sets to failure at 6-8 reps give or take.

That's why I was thinking about carb cycling. I also have wondered if and to what extent genetic or hormone factors are holding me back.

Everyone but Jay Cutler has crap genetics for bodybuilding. Okay, and maybe Kai Greene and, of course, Iris Kyle. Everyone else? They're hosed.

Of course that makes me SUPER-CRAZY HOSED.

Regardless, don't concern yourself with genetics because... you can't change them. Wait, can AAS take a person beyond their genetic limits? Again, who cares? They're illegal. You're 28? Hopefully, it's not hormonal but blood work should be able to tell you if you have low testosterone.

Post pics.

This is me at about 175 lbs. and 6'1".

This is me at around 200 lbs.

Narrow shoulders, mushy muscles -- like you, when I get lean all the muscle disappears and when I gain weight, well, it's a lot of fat -- and minimal strength output or ability.

It happens. Not everyone was meant to be super-hard or incredibly strong.

All you can do is stick to a program with consistency and try to increase those basic, fundamental, compound movements of bench (I prefer dumbbell benching), squats (leg press spares my aging lower back), and deadlift (back nuked that idea and so I substitute dumbbell rowing).

Eat, get your protein in, keep an eye on the mirror to avoid getting too fat but don't become neurotic with all the calorie counting and the maaaaath. God, how I hate the math.

No disrespect to the scientists, but I cannot deal with all those numbers. Maybe that's what's holding me back.

At age 48, I finally benched 200 lbs. for the first time ever. That was four months after my first cycle of IronMagLabs Super-DMZ Rx. As an older guy I had no qualms about taking this product, however for someone your age and barring any low T issues, I'm not sure it would be necessary.

Good luck.

 

[Built]

Fundamentally Total Calorie Needs = (BMR Calories) + (Activities)

Outside of a trip to the gym, most people are sedentary.
I believe there is also a thermogenic component, but I
ignore that.

Ah. So you weren't basing this on actual science; your decision was mathematically convenient.

Good luck. You clearly know that you - who have never done this before - are 100% correct and thus you are not listening to science, reason or experience. I'm done.


Curt - you look SO MUCH BETTER at 200 lbs than you did at 175 - pix make EVERYONE look smooth, and you and I, pale-skinned that we are, lose all hope of visible definition without many layers of protan. Even so, looking thicker and nicely-proportioned, you've still got a vein running down your left bicep.

Nice work.

 

[Curt James]

Curt - you look SO MUCH BETTER at 200 lbs than you did at 175 - pix make EVERYONE look smooth, and you and I, pale-skinned that we are, lose all hope of visible definition without many layers of protan. Even so, looking thicker and nicely-proportioned, you've still got a vein running down your left bicep.

Nice work.

Framing it.

Thank you, Built.

Edit:

 

[Built]

Ahahahahaha! <snort!>

 

[troubador]

Try 3 days a week, alternating these two workouts.

Workout A:
Squat
Leg Curls
Dumbbell Rows

Workout B:
Deadlift
Bench
Military Press

Thanks man, but like I said I've already done 'Starting Strength'. Strength really isn't my primary goal either. My problem isn't gaining weight, it's muscle with only a reasonable amount of fat. I feel like I have the basics down.

 

[Curt James]

Ahahahahaha! <snort!>

Nothing brings me more joy than making people laugh.

 

[Curt James]

Thanks man, but like I said I've already done 'Starting Strength'. Strength really isn't my primary goal either. My problem isn't gaining weight, it's muscle with only a reasonable amount of fat. I feel like I have the basics down.

Strength should be your primary goal. More strength equals more muscle. I don't see too many jacked people doing pumping routines.

If you want to gain muscle then you must get stronger. Diet will take care of the fat on your body.

Okay. But progressive overload should be on your list of basics, good sir.