overtraining on purpose what do you think

[Johnnny]

CourtQueen yeah I have heard of testosterone, something I have plenty of.
so you think that training heavy & the low rep scheme won't build bigger, bulkier muscles? Well that's what you say when you say WRONG! As for the women when they started training, some have been training for 5 months, while others have been training 20 yrs & both are training the same way as I mention. As for their BF% I can't speak for all of them, but some of them come in with 10-20%BF & trim down while others don't have much to begin with & just want to add a bit of muscle while staying slender & lean. As for their age, they're all ages at my gym. & as for their routine, most are doing the type of training as I mention to stay lean, slender & defined just to be healthy.

nikegurl

Johnny - It is NOT a known fact that women training with heavy weights build big thick muscles.

You put words into my mouth as you read incorrectly I said

It's a known fact that when training with heavier weights & the 2-4 rep scheme,

I no where in that phrase said it's a known fact that women training heavy......
As you see in my own quote I said in it's a known fact when ppl in general train heavier with the 2-4 rep scheme tend to build up thicker & bulkier.

As for women with big muscles, I've seen a few natural training women with big muscles. & yes I am putting out a warning to women training heavy if their goal is to be lean, slender, & defined.

 

[Rich46yo]

One of the great mysterys of the weightlifting world is the female obsession with "NOT" building large muscles and "looking like a man". Unless your juiceing a lady just doesnt have the hormonal cocktail to build muscles like a man. If you want to "bulk up" your going to have to eat more. If you want that lean feminine muscular look then adjust your diet. If you want to look like some of these super models then puke out everything you eat and snort heroin.

Ballet is a physical discipline thats custom made for weights. As long as you retain your flexability I cant understand why your trainer would want you to quit lifting. I know some dancers and lifting weights has helped them a lot. In fact there is no sport that weightlifting cant help you with. Even golfers lift now.

Female muscles are beautiful. I dont see how your legs could possably get "to muscular"..............take care........Rich

 

[Twin Peak]

Oh jeez.

 

[nikegurl]

stop the madness.

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by Twin Peak
I am in full agreement so far.




This is untrue, and is spoken from a narrow-minded perspective. There are reasons why one might want to train in a higher rep range. For example, a higher rep range will build muscle over not training at all, and it will burn many calories. Its ideal, for example, for one who circuit trains for health and leanness.

And its even useful from time to time for true "bodybuilders" for its phsiological effects on muscle tissue, as well as for creating a state of glycogen depletion.
I am not saying that a higher rep range is useless, I am saying that if your goal is to lean out and "tone' such as was implied then it is necessary to get the notion that higher rep range will some how lead to smaller muscles where as low rep range leads to bulkier muscles, which it does not. As a bodybuilder I utilize all repranges in order to stimulate the different muscle fibers. Just simply going in eth gym and lifting with hardly any resistance and high reps ranges in an attempt to not really get big is IMO a waste of time. You are not pushing yoru body past any of its limits, you are intentionaly trying to stalemate.



While this may be true, its wholly unrelated to the original posters goal, namely to shrink her quad muscle.
I felt this was an important point to address seeing how it is seemingly related to everything else and is a misrepresentation that is always perpetuated


Also a very narrow minded opinion. One can be in a caloric deficit and still build muscle by liberating energy stores (fat) and through nutrient partitioning.

Its just easier to do one or the other, than both concurrantly. But not impossible.
First of all, this is a whole nother convo, and one that I am tired of getting into. I still haven't heard or seen any legit science behind your theory that makes any sense. My thoughts are not narrow minded, they are realistic. Bulking requires a dedication to getting the meals easch day, the calories it takes. It takes 2k+ cals just for 1 lb of muscle. You need to attack your goals 100% whether you are bulking or cutting, both of which require different nutritional actions. Is it impossible, no nothing is. Its not easy to do it this way, its just more productive. Very few people see anything like muscle gain and fat loss simultaniously, and there are usually extending factors involved. IMO its not realistic for most. Your gonna do it, do it right. you can't pussyfoot around things


But she was asking about how to be leaner, rather he to have less muscular thighs.
I wasn't so much addressing the original poster as much as the people that posted after her with some crazy shit. Again I am trying to hammer thsi point home since people obviously do not understand it


To address the original poster, your plan is a bad idea. Rather than seek to overtrain, you should undertrain. That is, if you are lifting legs twice per week and they are too muscular, train than once per week. If once, train then every other week.

In other words, don't change your routine, but rather change your frequency so that you don't continue to build and perhaps loss some mass.

In addition, if you want leaner legs, well then, you'll have to loss the fat.
Do not focus on losing mass. Focus on prioritizing the points that you want, thats how its done. The notion taht you are too big is ridiculous and I bet if you posted pics everyone would agree. Prioritize or cut bodyfat

 

[LAM]

Originally posted by Johnnny
nikegurl it is not bad or wrong information. If every woman started training really heavy & the 2-4 reps scheme, there would be a lot of female hulks around.

It's a known fact that when training with heavier weights & the 2-4 rep scheme, it builds big, thick muscles. Which is what most women do not want from the women that I see at the gym & what I hear their goals are. They want to be lean, defined, & slender. Training heavy with the 2-4 rep scheme will just make the woman thicker & bulkier which like I said is not what most women I see at the gym want. Unless they're training for Ms.Olympia or something.

where do you get your information from ? the average male produces 10x the amount as the average woman. woman do not get big and bulky unless they supplement with testosterone...

 

[Var]

Anyone else notice that all of Johnny's posts lead to this eventually????

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Let's break down the sexist barriers, contrived walls, and learn a tad about physiology while were are at.

There is no such thing as "training like a man" or "training like a woman." You can't make your muscle "slender" or "toned" by the way you work out. Reread Gr81's post above, and my clarifications of it.

Let's get a few things straight, and drop the ad hominem talk about "reading for your certificate". Whoop-d-do.

1) You either build muscle, or do not build muscle, period.

2) There are optimal ways to build muscle, and there are less optimal ways. Admittedly, what each person responds to (in terms of stimulus, level of intensity, volume, frequency, etc.) varies.

3) You create muscle "definition" or "tone" (or lack thereof) by (1) increase muscle mass, and (2) decreasing bodyfat. The way you train has nothing to do with this, except to the limited and secondary extent that it burns calories.

Now, if you grasp all of the above, you will soon recognize that you don't train differently based on your sex, you train to (a) increase muscle, or not, and (b) to loss fat, or not.

I'd also like to touch briefly on your misguided notion that men and women will respond the same to the same workouts. They don't. First, men will not build the muscle of Kim Chichefsky. That is the result of super genetics, hard-work and years of doing so, and extraordinary amounts of anabilic steroids. Natural males do not have the capacity to build that much muscle. Natural females even less so.

My point -- VERY VERY VERY few people have the ability to get "too big." Women simply do not have the hormonal profile to do so. Rather, the fears of getting "too big" are overblow do to propogations of misinformation, such as you are doing here.

couldn't agree more with ya here bro. I am so tired of the stigmas surrounding womens weight training. I am a huge advocate of women weight training and doing it with the intensity of a man. Why not, are we to believe that women are too fragile to really bust their ass in there? are we back in the 50's again where women aren't supposed to overstep their boundaries? The notion is just ludicrous. I never see women even breaking a sweat ro grunting in the gym, but then again, why would you break a sweat when you are doing tricep kickbacks with 5 lbs every day. We need to break down these stupid stigmas and get them to realize that they need to be in there working hard, busting their ass. They need to be under the squat rack and deadlifting and gettingstronger. They aren't just going to wake up one day and look like China or Nicole Bass, or whoever else Johnnny mentioned, do you know why joynny? those women are using androgens, and high levels of them. Many men have dedicated thier lives to getting big, freakish even, and look where most of them are at. A women has 1/8 of the testosterone level of a man, so tell me how that is going to happen. The mere notion that women shouldn't overstep their boundaries in the gym, and stick to their exercise and side of the gym is sexist and simply archaic, not to mention selfdefeating.. It will not make them less feminine, it will only contribute positivel to their self image and self worth. Will you please tell me, johnny, what is different about the female skeletal muscular system and physical being in general that requires an antirely different, less intense and challenging methodology of training, please enlighten us? Look at Atherjen for instance, is she not feminine? hell yeah she is. not only that but I bet good money that she would woop johnny candy ass in the gym in most lifts and intensity. Is it b/c she is some freak of nature, not at all. She just doesn't let these silly stigmas stop her or limit her ambitions. thats is, I am done with this nonsense. Women please do not listen to these insecure men. The only limit on your training is what your mental limits it to be. You aren't gonna just wake up one day and be some roided out bitch, thats not how it works..peace

 

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Var
Anyone else notice that all of Johnny's posts lead to this eventually????

Its like flies to shit.

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by austinite
Twin Peak this is an excellent post. GR8 sounds knowledgeable but she must realize that there are few absolutes in fitness training. Everyone has a different body and genes, I have known many who managed to burn fat while building muscle, although it is not easy. As a matter-of-fact, weight training is a fat-burning endeavor in and of itself.

GR81 could also learn from you about the use of paragraphs.

It is infact NOT a fatburning endevour, it IS a catabolic endevour actually bro. Weight training increases your cortisol level, which leads to loss of LBM, while holding on so dearly to that adipose tissue you have. but by that rational you could say that rolling over in bed is a fat burning endevour. They are two differnt functions. anyone who is accomplishing both at once, is unique and probably either a newbie whose body has never seen resistance training before, or is on drugs for the most part.Just b/c someone does it, doesn't mean its the rule. soem people have 4 fingers, that doesn't make it always true. its the exception/. And yes you are right about there being few absoluts in weight training, I am aware. I never said the word absolute.

By the way, GR81 is a MAN, not awomen. Nest person that does that is getting cracked upside the head!

 

[nikegurl]

Originally posted by gr81
couldn't agree more with ya here bro. I am so tired of the stigmas surrounding womens weight training. I am a huge advocate of women weight training and doing it with the intensity of a man. Why not, are we to believe that women are too fragile to really bust their ass in there? are we back in the 50's again where women aren't supposed to overstep their boundaries? The notion is just ludicrous. I never see women even breaking a sweat ro grunting in the gym, but then again, why would you break a sweat when you are doing tricep kickbacks with 5 lbs every day. We need to break down these stupid stigmas and get them to realize that they need to be in there working hard, busting their ass. They need to be under the squat rack and deadlifting and gettingstronger. They aren't just going to wake up one day and look like China or Nicole Bass, or whoever else Johnnny mentioned, do you know why joynny? those women are using androgens, and high levels of them. Many men have dedicated thier lives to getting big, freakish even, and look where most of them are at. A women has 1/8 of the testosterone level of a man, so tell me how that is going to happen. The mere notion that women shouldn't overstep their boundaries in the gym, and stick to their exercise and side of the gym is sexist and simply archaic, not to mention selfdefeating.. It will not make them less feminine, it will only contribute positivel to their self image and self worth. Will you please tell me, johnny, what is different about the female skeletal muscular system and physical being in general that requires an antirely different, less intense and challenging methodology of training, please enlighten us? Look at Atherjen for instance, is she not feminine? hell yeah she is. not only that but I bet good money that she would woop johnny candy ass in the gym in most lifts and intensity. Is it b/c she is some freak of nature, not at all. She just doesn't let these silly stigmas stop her or limit her ambitions. thats is, I am done with this nonsense. Women please do not listen to these insecure men. The only limit on your training is what your mental limits it to be. You aren't gonna just wake up one day and be some roided out bitch, thats not how it works..peace

damn dude....i'm all choked up.

 

[gr81]

Johnny, you are officially a MORON. other threads didn't yet validate it, but these comments have made it offical. You are a god damm idiot.

"if women performed reps between 4-6 then there would be alot of female hulks our there"

OMG this^^ is the stupidest thing you have said. do us all a favor and shut your stupid mouth and stop talking about shit you don't know. Its funny that you are in here arguing with like 10 different people, and you still think you are right. yeah we are all wrong and you are rigt, please... you are a joke. Whatever you erply with is not gonna change the fact that you are a fuccin idiot and everyone here knows it! have a nice day jackass.

 

[Saturday Fever]

Someone needs to mention that the type of overtraining this lady is going to experience will be CNS overtraining, not overtraining of the muscles themselves. This will lead more to stagnation in strength than stagnation and regression in growth.

Your trainer rings of a "gym staff trainer" to me. They always say "It takes time" because your time is their dime! A good trainer will show you results from day 1.

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by nikegurl
damn dude....i'm all choked up.

thanks babe. see no one can ever say I am a sexist pig.

 

[Var]

I wish I could go back in time and unread this thread. Johnny, stop perpetuating myths you picked up at bodybuilding.com (or wherever you're from) and let people who know what they're talking about give advice. This was a truly sad display of your knowledge (or lack of it). I'm honestly not trying to flame you...this was just pathetic.

 

[kim]

I have been reading all your debate here regarding how women should train and I think that some people must read that thread link - IT'S A MUST

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi12.htm

kim

 

[Var]

I just skimmed it, but looks like a good article. And from bbing.com no less.

 

[kim]

Yea, that's a great article and as for being a women who his looking for great achievment, I'm much more confident entering into the MAX-O-T.

 

[Johnnny]

gr81 all I can say is scr^w yourself. "gr81" yeah right, more like ahole#1 if you ask me. You haven't even added one bit of useful information to this thread, it's very obvious that you came here just to attack me for some reason. That also tells me you don't know anything regarding this subject as I have trained more than a few females helping them achieve their fitness goals. & they did accomplish their goals not by training heavy with low reps, these women accomplished them by having the proper diet, focusing more on cardio, & using lighter weights & higher reps.

As for the females I mentioned using steroids & hormones, no
sh!t ahole, but they didn't get that way buy just using steroids & hormones & androgens alone. They lifted heavy weights & low reps. I've seen some females using steroids training with lighter weights & higher reps & they developed that very long, lean & very defined look rather than mass.

So again, it goes back to the way the woman trains & what her goals are. Even if she's not on steroids & she wants mass, she has to train for mass which consists of lifting heavy & low reps, if she wants definition & a lean body she has to train for it with cardio, proper diet & lighter weights & higher reps.

My current girlfriend is a perfect example of a woman being able to naturally increase their muscle mass & strength. She's 5ft6 & is now her current weight is 120lbs with not a lot of body fat nor did she ever have very much. She has a slender, lean shape & she trains high reps with lighter weight eats 4 meals & day with one snack & keeps her fat intake low. 2 summers ago when she first started training, she was training with heavy weights & 2-4 reps as she didn't know any better. & had the need to eat more & more frequently. After several months she'd gone up from 115lbs to about 135lbs. She thought she was getting fat. I immediately asked her how is she training & dieting? Her training & diet was designed for mass building which is what she didn't want at all, like I said she didn't know any better at the time. Her shoulders & back & legs were getting pretty thick for her body structure. She could bench press 140lbs for 3 reps & military press about 85lbs for 4 reps & squat about 155lbs for 4 reps or so. So I had to change up her whole training regime & diet. I re-organized everything for her, I lowered the amount of good food per day, I changed the way she was training like increasing the reps & using lighter weights, & had her doing more cardio. It took a few months but she started developing that long, lean look that she really wanted. She could still max out at the same strength, but didn't do it very often. Even her friends that I didn't even know had been training her new way for a long time already. perfect example.

As for only some of my threads going sour, the biggest problem is that some ppl think they know everything & just want to flap their lips to look like they know something.

Now don't take this the wrong way I'm not saying Nikegurl, CourtQueen or TwinPeak aren't knowledgeable, it's certain other individuals who think they know everything. I used to be like that 10yrs ago when I was 18yrs old until I actually started reading & doing plenty of research, asking as many different trainers men & women, natural & steroid enhanced bodybuilders for information as well.

Just for the record, even all the majority of the female certified trainers I've spoken to about women & their training routines, it's all the same as I've been stressing. They say if the woman wants muscle mass & thickness, she has to train & eat for it, if she wants a long lean slender body she has to train & eat for it. Both procedures are different.

I've also agreed with many other ppl here on this forum about many different things, but for this I don't agree I'm sorry, but I don't. If a woman or man uses heavy weights & low reps they will develop muscle mass, thickness & power/strength, if they do more cardio, not eat as much calories, use lighter weights & higher reps they will have a longer, leaner physique. It's been known for years, one of the things I've read in Arnold Schwarzenegger's books, I believe him over "some" of the ppl here.

 

[Var]

This post was far too long and I really dont have the interest to tear it apart in detail. Pls see my original post, as it still applies. Also, getting the opinions of PT's doesnt mean shit. Most suck. Reading Schwarzeneggers books doesnt mean a damn thing either. The only value in those books is entertainment.

 

[Liftzor]

lol damn you people are rough. I say tone, because I though it was a word you all would be familiar with . I guess, I have to make more educated posts from now on ........ lol

 

[DanK]

"gr81" yeah right, more like ahole#1 if you ask me.

Well yeah he's an ahole, but you're still an idiot (and he contributed plenty to this thread until you showed up and forced everyone in this thread to acknowledge your lack of knowledge).

 

[Sean0621]

Originally posted by Johnnny
As for only some of my threads going sour, the biggest problem is that some ppl think they know everything & just want to flap their lips to look like they know something.

You can't really believe what you just said. So what you think these "know it alls" are just posting to contradict whatever you post which of course is infallible, gr81 makes two good points in that a) he made a valid statement about women and lifting and b) you are an idiot. Look man I've read a couple of your post and yeah they go fine until you say something stupid and then someone tries to set you straight. Oh well whatever, do what you want, just don't try to make others as stupid as you are.

 

[austinite]

Originally posted by gr81
Johnny, you are officially a MORON.

Anyone who takes fitness advice from someone on a chat board is a moron if they don't get independent validation prior to implementation. Let the man give his opinion, that is exactly what everyone else is doing.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by austinite
Anyone who takes fitness advice from someone on a chat board is a moron if they don't get independent validation prior to implementation. Let the man give his opinion, that is exactly what everyone else is doing.

Except he is not merely "giving his opinion" he is spreading misinformation, and perpetuating sexism.

 

[Johnnny]

DanK

Well yeah he's an ahole, but you're still an idiot (and he contributed plenty to this thread until you showed up and forced everyone in this thread to acknowledge your lack of knowledge).

I think you've just described yourself. You don't even know what's going on. The "gr81" wasn't even on this thread until after I came offering my knowledge. He came just to run his fat mouth off.

I've read a lot of books, websites, spoken to many FEMALE & male trainers, & read up on a lot of websites & they say for females who want the long lean slender look they should avoid training with heavy weights & low reps & use lighter weights & higher reps. All the female trainers even a couple of big she- hulks & the male trainers I've seen in gyms over the years follow this principle of lighter weights & higer reps for their female or male clients who don't want to be big & bulky. Plus the diet is also not geared for bulk either.

So I guess they are ALL wrong eh? & all the books including information on this subject by Arnold Schwarzenegger & other Bodybuilders are all wrong. Oh well, I'd trust their information over certain ppl on the internet.

Sean0621

You can't really believe what you just said. So what you think these "know it alls" are just posting to contradict whatever you post which of course is infallible, gr81 makes two good points in that a) he made a valid statement about women and lifting and b) you are an idiot. Look man I've read a couple of your post and yeah they go fine until you say something stupid and then someone tries to set you straight. Oh well whatever, do what you want, just don't try to make others as stupid as you are.

Yes I do believe what I said b/c you're one of these ppl if you believe someone like "gr81".

austinite

Anyone who takes fitness advice from someone on a chat board is a moron if they don't get independent validation prior to implementation. Let the man give his opinion, that is exactly what everyone else is doing.

Like I've said I've gotten all my information from numerous certified female & male trainers, published books & other natural & steroid enhanced female & male bodybuilders. Knowledge is power & I've learned many things about training from all of these resources mentioned above. But I guess they're all wrong eh?

Twin Peak

Except he is not merely "giving his opinion" he is spreading misinformation, and perpetuating sexism.

Perpetuating sexism? WTF? I am in no way a sexist person. I already apologized if I came off that way. Like I said I've even gotten the same information from FEMALE TRAINERS & FEMALE BODYBUILDERS as well as male trainers & bodybuilders about MEN & WOMEN alike who want the long, lean, slender defined look & that their training has to be different & their diet has to be different than someone who is training & eating for bulk, mass & power.

But I guess these FEMALE TRAINERS & BODYBUILDERS that I've gotten my information from who say ppl wanting the long, lean, slender look are ALL WRONG EH?

All I can say is I don't think so.

Like I said in a reply my girlfriend is a perfect example of this, she already started out with not that much BF%. Last year she started training for the first time & really didn' know what she was doing. I say she didn't know what she was doing b/c she wanted the long, lean, slender defined look & not a bulky look. She started out by using heavier weights & 2-4 reps as that is what she saw at her gym all the guys doing as there were only a few girls in her gym.

As she began training she did know she need enough protein, but she noticed her appetite increased greatly so she started eating about 6 small meals a day. After several months she went from her 5ft6 height at around 115lbs with not much BF% to a big 135lbs with thicker shoulders, back, legs & bigger arms for her figure. She was only doing about 15mins of cardio as well.

She thought she was getting fat as I said she didn't know any better. I asked her how her training was & she basically described a routine & diet geared for mass & bulk & told me that she didn't want this look & wanted that long lean, slender defined look. So I had to change up her whole diet & training regime. I told to eat no more than 4 small solid meals plus one snack a day, increase her cardio to at least 25-35mins at most 4-5 times a week, & change her weight training to lighter weights & higher reps. After about 5 months or so she finally developed that long lean, slender defined look she wanted.

All the clients of the FEMALE & male trainers I see at gyms are training their female or male clients who don't want to be big & bulky & from what I see their clients are getting results.

So I'll take their advice over ppl from the internet on this as results mean the female & male trainers are doing something right & know what they are talking about.

 

[Vieope]

All I have to say is that I agree and disagree with most arguments in this thread. lol
Damn, you guys make too long posts to discuss obvious topics.

 

[Johnnny]

Vieope you can't spare 2 mins to read posts to know what's going on?

All I have to say is that I agree and disagree with most arguments in this thread. lol
Damn, you guys make too long posts to discuss obvious topics.

But I respect your opinion.

 

[Novo]

::sigh:: OK everyone, it's probably time we all admitted we know nothing in the face of Johnnny's superior knowledge:

If women train like a man, they will develop bulky muslces just like a man plain & simple

... and, my particular favourite, really he's just saving us all from heavy training, because

there would be a lot of female hulks around

Just one question Johnnny - any evidence, physiologically speaking, for any of these "facts" (and no, I don't need to hear "I read it in Arnie's book so it's gospel)

 

[Johnnny]

Novo

::sigh:: OK everyone, it's probably time we all admitted we know nothing in the face of Johnnny's superior knowledge:

I never said some of you here don't know anything. I'm clearly stating that the majority of women I've seen train or being trained by female or male trainers is generally the same as I have mentioned already. These women are getting the results from the diet & training I support. Maybe those results are wrong to.
All I can say is that results that these women & men are getting for the goal of being long, lean, slender & defined means they are doing something right. Results are proof, all I can say.