Pope John Paul II RIP

[Little Wing]

one of the reasons he gave as to not defrocking pedophile priests was that the church had a shortage of priests. and he closed the door on discussing women becoming priests. so hmmm better a pedophile than a woman preaching to me on sunday.

 

[Minotaur]

Anyone who purports to be the vicar of Chirst, the one who has unconditional love for everyone, and calls an entire group of people evil and depraved is not OK in my book. The Pope stepped over the line with that one. I'd like to hear him explain that one to Jesus when they meet.

I lost all respect for the Pope with that one, as I lost respect for Patriarch Alexy of the Russian Orthodox Church for cutting off relations with the American Episcopal Church over the consecration of Bishop Robinson.

Hypocrites who profess to love all, and yet sit in judgement.

 

[Little Wing]

but this is a local matter in many ways.

that is like saying the president is not kept up to date on the goings on in each state.

 

[Little Wing]

An 11-year-old girl caught Porter raping a six-year-old in a bathroom at St. Mary???s Grammar School and sought to intervene. ???I tried to stop him,??? she reports, ???but he grabbed me and sodomized me. He was absolutely violent. He told me he was stronger than me and that he had the power of God.???

this is the type of animal that was allowed to continue preying on children. take a really good look at the next 6 year old you see. what would you do in order to prevent this type of abuse? and why the hell should a religious figure such as the pope be allowed to set such a low standard of responsibility toward his fellow man for himself?

 

[busyLivin]

Anyone who purports to be the vicar of Chirst, the one who has unconditional love for everyone, and calls an entire group of people evil and depraved is not OK in my book. The Pope stepped over the line with that one. I'd like to hear him explain that one to Jesus when they meet.

I lost all respect for the Pope with that one, as I lost respect for Patriarch Alexy of the Russian Orthodox Church for cutting off relations with the American Episcopal Church over the consecration of Bishop Robinson.

Hypocrites who profess to love all, and yet sit in judgement.

When did he say homosexuals were evil? I remember him saying it was a "disorder".. which enraged many, but I can't imagine he would call any group of people evil.

 

[Vieope]

When did he say homosexuals were evil? I remember him saying it was a "disorder".. which enraged many, but I can't imagine he would call any group of people evil.

He said it was evil.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=43807

 

[busyLivin]

He said it was evil.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=43807

again, the act was evil, not the people. it has long been 'love the sinner, hate the sin'

don't expect them to accept gay marriage anytime soon.. not this Pope or the next. The world doesn't accept it yet, why would the Vatican?

 

[Minotaur]

When did he say homosexuals were evil? I remember him saying it was a "disorder".. which enraged many, but I can't imagine he would call any group of people evil.

I never make a statement without having backup...

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=p...s_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images

http://www.gay.com/news/roundups/package.html?sernum=1105

In "Memory and Identity," the pope ruminates on gay marriage with an assault that is at once direct and syntactically circuitous. "It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man," he says.

http://www.avi.org/node/view/958

Pope Tells Protestant Churches To Bar Gays
by Malcolm Thornberry 365Gay.com European Bureau Chief

(Vatican City) Pope John Paul on Saturday warned Protestant churches that liberal views toward homosexuality would result in the Vatican withdrawing from ecumenism.

The Pope's remarks came during a service to mark the 40th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council which led the Catholic Church into a period of ecumenism with other Christian Churches.

"Unfortunately, we are faced with new problems, especially those of an ethical nature, where new divisions which impede a common witness have sprouted," he said.

Seven-thousand people attended the service in St Peter's Basilica, including representatives of Anglican and Protestant Churches as well as members of the Orthodox Church, which split from Rome in the Great Schism of 1054.

The Pope's warning was seen as particularly threatening to the Anglican Church which broke away from Rome in 1534 but which in recent times has made overtures of reconciliation.

Anglicans are divided over the election of openly gay bishop Gene Robinson in the American wing of Anglicanism.

A report to the leader of the worldwide Anglican faith last month called for the Episcopal Church, the American name for Anglicanism, to apologize for Robinson's elevation, and it chastised Canadian Anglicans for allowing the blessings of same-sex relationships.

 

[bio-chem]

Anyone who purports to be the vicar of Chirst, the one who has unconditional love for everyone, and calls an entire group of people evil and depraved is not OK in my book. The Pope stepped over the line with that one. I'd like to hear him explain that one to Jesus when they meet.

I lost all respect for the Pope with that one, as I lost respect for Patriarch Alexy of the Russian Orthodox Church for cutting off relations with the American Episcopal Church over the consecration of Bishop Robinson.

Hypocrites who profess to love all, and yet sit in judgement.

you can love the sinner yet hate the sin. the maxim is not "judge not", but "judge not unrightousley" which is a matter of opinion on this forum (the meaning of rightous) there will always be those who tear down when someone makes a stand for a belief. in my book he shows himself to be a man of character to speak boldly about what he feels to be a black and white, right and wrong answer despite the prevailing winds of the day.

 

[busyLivin]

I never make a statement without having backup...

I know..

Again though, I see it as saying that homosexuals were acting in sin. He may call homosexuality evil, just as he would call anything else he deems a sin as evil.

 

[Vieope]

again, the act was evil, not the people. it has long been 'love the sinner, hate the sin'

don't expect them to accept gay marriage anytime soon.. not this Pope or the next. The world doesn't accept it yet, why would the Vatican?

So Hitler was a nice guy? He just killed people but you gotta hate murder not the assassin? They called gays evil, which is not right.

Catholich church sucks, it doesn´t like abortion, premarital sex, contraceptive methods, the whole history of it was involved in lies, the priests in the time of Inquisition were rich, fat and liked women, that is why they destroyed the Cathars, because it didn´t make they look good.. Proof of that? Check the Vatican secret archives but you can´t because they don´t allow researchers.

But I liked this Pope, I didn´t agree with him in every topic but I really liked him.

 

[Eggs]

i'm not calling him names and every man is a human creature with many facets.

Sure you are, equating him to Kinsey is very much doing so. Its just a more covert attempt at it.

i am sure he had great qualities mixed in with his failings.

Well good, being that the dude just died, why dont you focus on the good things for a minute instead of stepping in to talk shit and insult people of the Catholic faith? Or is that too much to ask?

why is it sad that he died? with god now isn't he? shouldn't we rejoice? isn't he in a better place? won't god understand the need to protect the church rather than a helpless child?

Sure, its fine that he died as far as eternity goes (I guess from a Christians point of view), but for people that saw him as somebody that was a good and decent person, it would be sad to see him go. I dont really care that much about the Pope, in a religious or human manner... but I will treat Catholics with respect as I would wish to be treated if I were in their situation. Which is more than you are able to do currently.

 

[bio-chem]

Catholich church sucks, it doesn´t like abortion, premarital sex, contraceptive methods,

so. unless your catholic how does this effect you? and if your catholic you agree and live your life accordingly or you disagree and find something you do agree with. im not saying whether these things are right or wrong. (some i agree with and some i dont) but people need to realize we (people) need to change our beliefs to meet Gods eternal truths. changing God to meet our (limited) understanding defeats the purpose. this is the reason we have so many religions out there. somebody disagrees with one faiths beliefs so he says "follow me i have the truth" and we are left with hundreds of apostate religions

 

[Minotaur]

you can love the sinner yet hate the sin. the maxim is not "judge not", but "judge not unrightousley" which is a matter of opinion on this forum (the meaning of rightous) there will always be those who tear down when someone makes a stand for a belief. in my book he shows himself to be a man of character to speak boldly about what he feels to be a black and white, right and wrong answer despite the prevailing winds of the day.

Nonsense. That hate the sin, love the sinner is a nonsense smokescreen. I don't believe that.

http://www.avi.org/node/view/958

Pope Tells Protestant Churches To Bar Gays
by Malcolm Thornberry 365Gay.com European Bureau Chief

(Vatican City) Pope John Paul on Saturday warned Protestant churches that liberal views toward homosexuality would result in the Vatican withdrawing from ecumenism. (does this include loving the "sinner" and welcoming him into God's house?) The Pope's remarks came during a service to mark the 40th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council which led the Catholic Church into a period of ecumenism with other Christian Churches.

"Unfortunately, we are faced with new problems, especially those of an ethical nature, where new divisions which impede a common witness have sprouted," he said.

Seven-thousand people attended the service in St Peter's Basilica, including representatives of Anglican and Protestant Churches as well as members of the Orthodox Church, which split from Rome in the Great Schism of 1054.

The Pope's warning was seen as particularly threatening to the Anglican Church which broke away from Rome in 1534 but which in recent times has made overtures of reconciliation.

Anglicans are divided over the election of openly gay bishop Gene Robinson in the American wing of Anglicanism.

A report to the leader of the worldwide Anglican faith last month called for the Episcopal Church, the American name for Anglicanism, to apologize for Robinson's elevation, and it chastised Canadian Anglicans for allowing the blessings of same-sex relationships.

And what is this "judge not unrighteously" nonsense? Who made that up? Jesus said "Judge not lest ye be judged. For with what you measure it shall be measured against you."

 

[busyLivin]

Catholich church sucks, it doesn´t like abortion, premarital sex, contraceptive methods, the whole history of it was involved in lies, the priests in the time of Inquisition were rich, fat and liked women, that is why they destroyed the Cathars, because it didn´t make they look good.. Proof of that? Check the Vatican secret archives but you can´t because they don´t allow researches.

Catholic Church has ugly parts in it's past.. there's no proof needed.

Regarding abortion? That needs no response.. you can't really expect them to condone tearing out an unborn fetus. Life has always been considered to have started at conception by Catholics. Abortion, in our view, is murder.. plain & simple. They will never condone that.

Premarital sex? I applaud them sticking to that. Though sex isn't respected or a "big deal" anymore these days, it still means something to some people. Going out and "fucking" on the weekends may be fun, but it's an indulgence. They will never condone that either.

I agree with you on the contraception issue..

Though often distorted by men, the point is to try & live as God would want..

 

[bio-chem]

eggs give rock a chance to explain what she is saying. i find her to be a level headed individual. my understanding is that the pope was infuriated with the american cardinals and called them all to the vatican for a verbal dress down when this all happened. (the moving around of catholic priests to protect the church. he was the head of a 1 billion member church and it is entirely posible he did not know this practice was happening. let me just say im not defending the catholic church on this issue. i wholehartedly feel the men responsiible should be held accountable, however i dont think the coruption went all the way to the pope on this one.

 

[Vieope]

so. unless your catholic how does this effect you?

A lot actually, since I am surrounded by catholics. How can I trust their critical thinking when they believe in fairy tale?

 

[Eggs]

I never make a statement without having backup...

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=p...s_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images

http://www.gay.com/news/roundups/package.html?sernum=1105

Great sources there, a google search that isnt actually pointing to him actually calling gay evils, but calling the lifestyle evil.

Oh, and pointing to gay.com. Now thats not going to be a biased source!

Lets be realistic, the Pope wasnt saying that Gays were evil people... that they should be burned at the stake, or whatever else you could think of. He's saying that according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin, and in that, sin is evil.

As to this:

I lost all respect for the Pope with that one, as I lost respect for Patriarch Alexy of the Russian Orthodox Church for cutting off relations with the American Episcopal Church over the consecration of Bishop Robinson.

Lemme see, according to Christianity (in all but the most liberal views), homosexuality is wrong and is a sin. So, the fact that the American Episcopal church allowed this Bishop in, is very much akin as far as sin goes to allowing a rapist or what not be Bishop. So you're saying it would be okay to let a known rapist, child molester, etc to be made Bishop as well? And before we go off and say something stupid like "Oh, they let child molesting priests do it all the time" well, I dont really think thats the case. Child molesters are being dealt with, and if a priest committed any other form of rape the same would be expected.

What you're saying is that the Church shouldnt be able to enforce any of its beliefs on those that work for it. Well, I dont see how one could truly believe in a religion and think that they shouldnt have the right to enforce their own belifs amongst their clergy.

 

[Vieope]

Catholic Church has ugly parts in it's past.. there's no proof needed.

Regarding abortion? That needs no response.. you can't really expect them to condone tearing out an unborn fetus. Life has always been considered to have started at conception by Catholics. Abortion, in our view, is murder.. plain & simple. They will never condone that.

Premarital sex? I applaud them sticking to that. Though sex isn't respected or a "big deal" anymore these days, it still means something to some people. Going out and "fucking" on the weekends may be fun, but it's an indulgence. They will never condone that either.

I agree with you on the contraception issue..

Though often distorted by men, the point is to try & live as God would want..

I would like to continue to debate and try to diminish your belief but it is not fun since I like you.

 

[Eggs]

Catholich church sucks, it doesn´t like abortion, premarital sex, contraceptive methods

What you're saying is that you dont like Catholicism because they dont support your lifestyle. Right?

 

[busyLivin]

How can I trust their critical thinking when they believe in fairy tale?

I'm going to moon you from behind St. Peter's gate

 

[busyLivin]

I would like to continue to debate and try to diminish your belief but it is not fun since I like you.

 

[Eggs]

eggs give rock a chance to explain what she is saying. i find her to be a level headed individual.

I mean, I can give her a chance to explain... but the reality is the dude just died. There are Catholics here, and instead of just ignoring the thread if she didnt have anything nice to say, she decided to stick her head in and spit on his corpse once or twice before hte burial. I would think it okay to discuss this later... and I'd find it interesting to discuss the legitimacy of the church, scandals that have happened, etc... but I dont think now is the time.

 

[Minotaur]

Great sources there, a google search that isnt actually pointing to him actually calling gay evils, but calling the lifestyle evil.

Oh, and pointing to gay.com. Now thats not going to be a biased source!

Lets be realistic, the Pope wasnt saying that Gays were evil people... that they should be burned at the stake, or whatever else you could think of. He's saying that according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin, and in that, sin is evil.

As to this:



Lemme see, according to Christianity (in all but the most liberal views), homosexuality is wrong and is a sin. So, the fact that the American Episcopal church allowed this Bishop in, is very much akin as far as sin goes to allowing a rapist or what not be Bishop. So you're saying it would be okay to let a known rapist, child molester, etc to be made Bishop as well? And before we go off and say something stupid like "Oh, they let child molesting priests do it all the time" well, I dont really think thats the case. Child molesters are being dealt with, and if a priest committed any other form of rape the same would be expected.

What you're saying is that the Church shouldnt be able to enforce any of its beliefs on those that work for it. Well, I dont see how one could truly believe in a religion and think that they shouldnt have the right to enforce their own belifs amongst their clergy.

Your opinions and nothing more. I gave mine, and my reasons for them. And as for my sources, what do you think would be an unbiased source?

 

[Vieope]

 

[bio-chem]

Nonsense. That hate the sin, love the sinner is a nonsense smokescreen. I don't believe that.

http://www.avi.org/node/view/958


And what is this "judge not unrighteously" nonsense? Who made that up? Jesus said "Judge not lest ye be judged. For with what you measure it shall be measured against you."

exactly read it all together. the original writing (greek)has the unrightous part in it. we are required to make judgements every day of our lives. its a part of living. if Jesus was telling us to never judge then we could not be judged "for with what you measure it shall be measured against you" if we never measure....? He was telling us in how we should go about makeing our judgements. im not going to let a known pedophile babysit my kids thats a judgement call. and not an unrightous one at that.

 

[Eggs]

Umm, and unbiased source would be one that wasnt titled GAY.COM when there is an obvious schism between Christianity and Gays. What, do you think they arent going to be a bit one sided? Did your professors not require this of you in college? I've done the same thing in backing stuff up with crappy examples. But lets not try to argue that, they were about as shitty and biased as you can get.

Your opinions and nothing more. I gave mine, and my reasons for them.

Eeexactly, and those are your opinions, and absolutely nothing more

 

[bio-chem]

A lot actually, since I am surrounded by catholics. How can I trust their critical thinking when they believe in fairy tale?

fairy tale? in what way will their beliefs effect there critical thinking that would in turn effect you?

 

[Little Wing]

you're way off base. i have nothing at all against catholics. never have. it is very sad that many now carry a wound upon their faith inflicted by their own church. many no longer attend services, many priests with no mark whatsoever on their honor are looked upon with suspicion. good men who would serve their entire lives to better the lives of those less fortunate turn away from the priesthood because it has been stained. stained by nothing more than greed. money, power, pride... these were treasure more valuable to the powerful in the church than the human rights of children. there are countless catholics who still attend church regularly and rest assured they keep a close eye on their sons. i do not care if you are black , white or purple a baptist, catholic or jew if you are in a position where you have the power to protect innocent children and you for any reason fail to do so it should damn well be remembered and the rain of roses when you die should be halted in rememberance of your failing. he was a good enough man to call this a sin and to hope these men would move on and not bring further shame to the church but make no mistake about it he was a powerful enough man to set a zero tolerance standard and he failed to do so. my anger is nothing compared to the anger of countless catholics.

 

[bio-chem]

I mean, I can give her a chance to explain... but the reality is the dude just died. There are Catholics here, and instead of just ignoring the thread if she didnt have anything nice to say, she decided to stick her head in and spit on his corpse once or twice before hte burial. I would think it okay to discuss this later... and I'd find it interesting to discuss the legitimacy of the church, scandals that have happened, etc... but I dont think now is the time.

all right. agreed.