regarding barbell rows, always see 2 forms done by different body types

[Mudge]

I can guarentee that using the more bentover form will will notice a fuller range of motion for one thing as well as you're hitting a larger area of the back muscles.

You are both letting the arms hang lower, and also in part due to that using your rotator cuffs. If I wanted an arm workout, I'd work out my arms.

 

[firestorm]

Thats cool bro but here is how I'd change that slightly, If were considering this a "back" routine then I'd do the traditional Bentovers 1st followed by db rows I wouldn't do both Yates and traditional bentovers on the same day unless I was also doing shoulders which.... at that point would put the Yates Bentovers over with the shoulder routine. I wouldn't do both for back though. Bit of overtraining along with Tbars and DB rows. they are 4 similar excercises. Just my opinion though.

 

[firestorm]

You are both letting the arms hang lower, and also in part due to that using your rotator cuffs. If I wanted an arm workout, I'd work out my arms.

Well sure Mudge your using biceps. You using them for pullups and any pulling movement anyway. The point I'm trying to make is if your looking for a "full" back and lat excercise then your better off with bentover rows. Regardless of the fact your using biceps more to pull, your back is still getting targeted as a "whole" much better then with the Yates.

This is like arguing,, just do leg presses and dump squats because you don't need to encorporate as many muscle groups for presses as you do for squats. and I don't want a full body excercise just a leg excercise. It's just a silly concept. Regardless that your being forced to use more bicep or not, you can't argue the point of my post. The more upright you go the more emphasis is taken from the lats and placed higher and higher to the upper traps. Yates are good for rear and upper lat development and real delts.
Bentover rows done "properly" target the lats and back moreso as a "whole" A much better excercise.

 

[Mudge]

I may give em a shot again someday, not a fan of bending over that far with huge loads though.

 

[M.J.H.]

I agree with Mudge, as I am a huge advocate of bentover rows more upright, Yates style. Pulling to my waistline rather than to my sternum. I guess it's personal preference honestly---because I have tried bending completely over and I absolutely hate them. I feel them in my rotator cuffs and rear delts.

I think to hit your midback more just simply throw in some t-bar rows or chest-supported type rows. Just my $.02.

 

[firestorm]

One last note. When I do bentovers I'm sure I'm not in Mudge's category in regards to poundages used. I can only handle 275 or so "cleanly" for 4 to 6 reps. When I feel my form begin to fade (moreso in my lower back; old injury), I then straighten up a bit for some partial reps. At least in my Log book that is what I call them. You guys call them Yates deadlifts. Point I'm trying to make is that they are partial reps and when I'm about totally fried at 4 or 5 with bentovers, I can straighten up a bit and kick out about 3 more clean reps. (Just an observation I've noticed looking at my log book). When I take out the lower back and change that angle I'm almost fresh again. It's like an entirely different movement. All the worked mid back muscles get a break and are taken out of the picture and now I'm pulling at a different angle using the same lat muscles, same shoulder muscles etc but in a totally different way. Suddenly after 2 or 3 of those partial reps my traps are pumpen up more. Seriously guys try this as well and you will see I'm not talking out of my ass.

 

[firestorm]

One last thing... It is my understanding that where Yates was concerned, he did traditional bentovers for the majority of his career and only switch to the more upright method later and if my memory is correct it was due to some injury. I may be mistaken about the injury though.

 

[firestorm]

I agree with Mudge, as I am a huge advocate of bentover rows more upright, Yates style. Pulling to my waistline rather than to my sternum. I guess it's personal preference honestly---because I have tried bending completely over and I absolutely hate them. I feel them in my rotator cuffs and rear delts.

I think to hit your midback more just simply throw in some t-bar rows or chest-supported type rows. Just my $.02.

Personnally Mon,, I like both of your alternate excercises you just mentioned so I don't see a problem with that workout AT ALL. In fact it hits everything at different angles and I'm sure we all can agree that is a good thing.

 

[Mudge]

I just call it a row, I know what it is in my logbook, so I dont spell it all out.

He switched grips from injury thats all I recall who knows. I can try more angle with 225 and see how it feels, maybe around 45º.

 

[firestorm]

I call em rows as well Mudge but I'm very Anal retentive and so I keep really strict notes so I know how to guage the next workout. for example if my goal is 4 reps of "rows" with lets say 290 and I get 2 clean reps but I want more, I'll come up a bit and bang out as many as I can say again 2 and I'll put that on their as a side note. Because of how I do a power routine every 3rd week I may not remember what the 2 on the side meant by then so I have to call it something so I call em a cheat rep or partial rep. That way I'll know what if any adjustments I need to make.

Anyway Big fella.....I was looking at your pics and you look fuqing bigger and wider then ever. I don't want to try talking you into anything because what your doing is obviously working for you. Your a class act guy Mudge and I have nothing but the upmost respect for you and all you contribute here and thank you.

 

[camarosuper6]

I love T-Bar Rows, but at my gym you have to put the bar together yourself using a barbell, a handle and some weights... and I always find my handles start slipping down the bar.

 

[firestorm]

That is the Tbar system I have as well. I noticed that if you put alot of weight on there it wont slip. hehehehe just funnen ya. I have the same thing though. It really doesn't slip on me.

 

[shawn32]

When doing shrugs do you roll your shoulders or just raise them up and down? I tend to want to roll my shoulders and someone told me you can hurt your rotator cuff that way.....

 

[firestorm]

I hope nobody rebuts this but I have to say NOOOOO do not roll your shoulders. That does nothing for you. A pause at the top is the way to go. If you want to hit the traps another way alternate workouts with a straight bar and dumbbells held to your sides. That is all you need but do not roll the shoulders.

 

[M.J.H.]

I hope nobody rebuts this but I have to say NOOOOO do not roll your shoulders. That does nothing for you. A pause at the top is the way to go.

Agreed. Rolling your shoulders doesn't make the exercise anymore efficient.

 

[shawn32]

Thanx guys I will try not to roll my shoulders...Just seems like Im using more bicep movement then shoulders.

 

[Mudge]

I'll come up a bit and bang out as many as I can say again 2 and I'll put that on their as a side note.

Same here for notes, if I do a half or 3/4 rep on a RM attempt I write it down. If I use body momentum for shrugs/rows I write it down. Generally I will remember the next week based on that note where to go for each set. Sometimes I flip through my logbooks to see where I was a year ago, or even two etc - but generally its for week to week progress (attempts anyway)

I don't want to try talking you into anything because what your doing is obviously working for you. Your a class act guy Mudge and I have nothing but the upmost respect for you and all you contribute here and thank you.

Thax mano, Ronnie bends over quite a bit from what I've seen so I'm not going to argue it really. I feel if anything I have some width but lack thickness (erectors are being worked on with GMs), so I am not uber convinced just yet that I'm all upper back and no width. I will try a more bent over position with 135/225 to see how it feels.

 

[Mudge]

Thanx guys I will try not to roll my shoulders...Just seems like Im using more bicep movement then shoulders.

You just have to do your best to avoid pulling with your arms, but it happens a little. I use a barbell, never dumbells for shrugs, just preference but also probably easier to keep the arm mostly straight. I really dont feel a thing in my biceps but I can see my arm move a bit especially on heavier sets. I dont pause at the top myself, again just preference. As long as I pull UP as hard as I can on each set for my attempted squeeze (there is no way I would touch my ears) then its a good rep.

 

[firestorm]

For the record I CAN'T pause with heavy weight either. I get it up and bring it back down "controlled" I'd pause if I could but I can't. I do pause with lighter weights and like Mudge, I rarely use DB's for shrugs either and when I do, I only do one arm at a time. I hold the DB rack with my free hand and do one side at a time. I seem to really feel them better that way.

 

[Mudge]

Yeah for an honest pause I'd have to drop the weight a lot, and I think traps should be used to heavy weights. Look how many people do cheat shrugs and get results. If I paused at the top I'd be doing 40 reps with Sesame Street weights

 

[TrojanMan60563]

I like doing rows at the squat rack...I know using the squat rack for anything other then squatting is taboo, but for me it works. I like to keep it heavy enough to put tension on the muscles....but light enough that I can get good full motion reps for the first 3-6 reps. Then do more reps maybe less then perfect form. This is something I just started doing and seems to give a great pump and I think has helped my backs development.

 

[TrojanMan60563]

as far as shrugs go I think barbell very heavy is the way to make them grow...right now I do them with dumbbells on shoulder days for convenience...but heavy barbell is IMO the most effective to add size.

 

[firestorm]

Yeah for an honest pause I'd have to drop the weight a lot, and I think traps should be used to heavy weights. Look how many people do cheat shrugs and get results. If I paused at the top I'd be doing 40 reps with Sesame Street weights

I agree with you Mudge. The key is range of motion and to go heavy.

 

[Johnnny]

Firestorm

For the record I CAN'T pause with heavy weight either. I get it up and bring it back down "controlled" I'd pause if I could but I can't. I do
pause with lighter weights and like Mudge

I am exactly the same way.

 

[Mudge]

I like doing rows at the squat rack...I know using the squat rack for anything other then squatting is taboo, but for me it works.

At most gyms nobody hardly uses the squat racks anyway, I use them on back day, and I even used to do my bicep curls in a walk in rack. I feel no guilt over it when every other rack in the gym is EMPTY.

 

[solid10]

At most gyms nobody hardly uses the squat racks anyway, I use them on back day, and I even used to do my bicep curls in a walk in rack. I feel no guilt over it when every other rack in the gym is EMPTY.

I agree, it's funny but I can tell the difference when I do and don't do squats. I feel stronger and feel more muscle gain overall.

 

[Johnnny]

Mudge

At most gyms nobody hardly uses the squat racks anyway, I use them on
back day, and I even used to do my bicep curls in a walk in rack. I feel
no guilt over it when every other rack in the gym is EMPTY.

I use the squatting cages for back, & barbell curls but I make sure to use the muscles to bring the weight up.

 

[Johnnny]

I did the big boy version, the first version listed here, & My back was so pumped after the first 2 sets.

I only do 12 sets for back with 3 exercises, followed by 3 sets of hypers.

 

[wilwn]

hmmmmmm...
here's something i found from a t-mag article




"The lats are more active in vertical pulling exercises, while the rhomboids and middle trapezius muscles are more active in horizontal pulling exercises. As a general rule, the more vertical your torso is when performing back exercises, the more dominant your lats will be in the movement."




http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=278back2

 

[Johnnny]

wilwn

That was a great link!