Should Bonds get an Asterisk?

[DOMS]

I only read the first page so this may have been covered...

The thought is that steroids are what allowed Bond to do so well. If that's true and so many other players probably take steroids, then why don't they hit as well as Bonds?

 

[tucker01]

That isn't really the point. Everyone has different abilities. No doubt Bonds is exceptional compared to other players. But Roids surely enhanced his natural abilities. There is no lying with numbers since 2000

 

[DFINEST]

Actually he was the oldest rookie in Baseball

The oldest rookie of the year was Sam Jethone of Boston in 1950 at 32 yo 286 days

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/2000/11/06/sasaki_roy_ap/

Even if he did win rookie of the year it would be a fair comparison to this scenario. He was an elite pitcher in the Negro Leagues for many years before, and wasn't allowed to picther in the Majors until sometime later. almost any young Rookie in the league will not come in posting hall of fame numbers until they mature.

Bonds Numbers have gone through the roof since 2000, age 37-40 not exactly the prime of his career... Things that make you go hmmmm.

I stand corrected as SATCHEL PAIGE was the oldest rookie.....

At age 42, he pitched LIKE he was in the prime of his career,
pitching 9 inning games; not many 42 yr olds pitching
9 innings today

 

[tucker01]

different era, relievers were almost non-existant.

But you are damn right he was a phenom, it was too bad he wasn't able to pitch his whole career in the MLB's and get the respect he deserves

 

[Flex]

Bonds Numbers have gone through the roof since 2000, age 37-40 not exactly the prime of his career... Things that make you go hmmmm.

What about other players who got in their prime in their later age...are they on juice too?
Clemens. Shaq. Schilling. Randy. (Vinny Testaverde )

 

[Flex]

BTW, IAD...

i assume that's your son in your avi. very cute kid (esp. with that hat )

 

[min0 lee]

What about other players who got in their prime in their later age...are they on juice too?
Clemens. Shaq. Schilling. Randy. (Vinny Testaverde )

The thing they all have in common is that they have continued playing at the same or close to the level they have played in their younger years.
Bonds has exceeded that, His homers have doubled since.
If you want to compare them that would mean Shaq would increase his scoring to what.....100 points a game and Clemens would pitch 3 no hitters in a row.
Not the same.

 

[tucker01]

The thing they all have in common is that they have continued playing at the same or close to the level they have played in their younger years.
Bonds has exceeded that, His homers have doubled since.
If you want to compare them that would mean Shaq would increase his scoring to what.....100 points a game and Clemens would pitch 3 no hitters in a row.
Not the same.

BTW, IAD...

i assume that's your son in your avi. very cute kid (esp. with that hat )

Yep it is Flex Thanks Is there any other Team to cheer for. Well Maybe the Jays

 

[Flex]

The thing they all have in common is that they have continued playing at the same or close to the level they have played in their younger years.
Bonds has exceeded that, His homers have doubled since.
If you want to compare them that would mean Shaq would increase his scoring to what.....100 points a game and Clemens would pitch 3 no hitters in a row.
Not the same.

Yes, it IS the same.

So you're trying to tell me steroids make you throw a better breaking ball, and would help Shaq shoot better from the foul line?

You guys still don't get it. YES, steroids will make you stronger. YES, they'll make you quicker. But they won't give you an eye for the one strike/at bat you get. They won't make you make contact with the ball. THEY WON"T MAKE YOU HIT MORE HR'S, the ball may just go a little further.

 

[tucker01]

No they won't you are right

Bonds already had an exceptional eye at the plate. Howvever the increased bat speed will make a huge difference. Now instead of not being able to get the bat around fast enough to fight off the inside pitch, Bonds can can get the meat of the bat around to make solid contact.

All those Deep fly balls now become Homruns from the increased BAt speed. Strike outs where he couldn't get the bat around now have the possibilty of being hits. There are so many scenarios of improvements to situations from improved bat speed, I could go on and on.

No one is arguing that he doesn't have a great eye at the plate and there is no doubt that steroids don't enhance that, but they are allowing him to take better advantage of his abilites.

 

[min0 lee]

No they won't you are right

Bonds already had an exceptional eye at the plate. Howvever the increased bat speed will make a huge difference. Now instead of not being able to get the bat around fast enough to fight off the inside pitch, Bonds can can get the meat of the bat around to make solid contact.

All those Deep fly balls now become Homruns from the increased BAt speed. Strike outs where he couldn't get the bat around now have the possibilty of being hits. There are so many scenarios of improvements to situations from improved bat speed, I could go on and on.

No one is arguing that he doesn't have a great eye at the plate and there is no doubt that steroids don't enhance that, but they are allowing him to take better advantage of his abilites.

He makes a better case.

 

[Flex]

So do steroids make him bat .380? Is that from bat speed?

....they ABSOLUTELY DO NOT give him that BA.

Look at Ichiro.

 

[tucker01]

No he gets that batting average. He has the ability to hit the ball already.... All Steroids to is enhance his natural ability, which he has plenty of. I am not saying I could take steroids and become an exceptional Baseball player. I could however with the proper training and effort become a better ball player... Much like Bonds has increased his potential. Bat Speed is a huge thing when you are already an allstar hitter. I just don't see how you could think other wise.

And comparing him to Ichiro is like comparing Apples to Oranges everyone has different abilities or we would all be .380 hitters.

I don't think he should get an astericks, his a Hall of Fame player. But is ludicrous not to think that steroids have inflated his numbers.

Not that us debating this is going to change anything anyways

 

[min0 lee]

We now have a time frame on his steroid usage, I'll look up his Bonds lifetime stats when I get home and post them to see if there are any differences.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Doesn't matter. There are other opportunities afforded players today that weren't available back then. You would have to give everyone who took creatine an asterisk. Plus they weren't against pro baseball's rules at the time.

 

[min0 lee]

That's true, but I still think it gives them an edge.

 

[Dale Mabry]

That's true, but I still think it gives them an edge.

So doesn't creatine.

 

[min0 lee]

I don't think to the extreme roids does, in fact I don't even respond to creatine....not like I did when I tried test. back in the late 80's.

 

[tucker01]

I was listening to the radio today and they were debating about this. They brought up cases that maybe Babe Ruth used a corked bat, or for that matter that batters in previous era may have used things to enhance there batting abilities that were unknown of at the time.

Just something to think about.

 

[tucker01]

I voted no, clearly Bonds was a phenomenal player before steriod use. But I do understand the reasoning for considering the Asterick.

Take a look at his stats pre 2000 and post 2000 quite a remarable difference

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=111188&statType=1

Pre 2000 Avg HR per Season 32
Post 200 Avg HR per Season 52

Pre OB% 407
Post OB% 535

Pre Slug% 561
Post Slug% 611

Pre Bat avg .288
Post Bat avg .341

Obviously Bonds has quite a remarkable improvement to his preformance since 2000, in which it would seem quite obvious Steriods have enhanced his natural abilities. Let alone the Fact that he should be on the down side of his career not the upswing at the age of 40.

It is foolish to think that steriods have not helped him get the single season record, nor more than likely the Career HR record. No doubt he has amazing Hand-eye coordination, why else would he be in the major leagues? Hitting a ball is a matter of hundreths of second for reaction time. Increased strenght allows one to get the back through the hitting area at a quicker rate, giving Bonds an opportunity to make better contact with the ball.

However, I voted no, because there are always going to be circumstances that could have impacted ones performance. He is a great athlete and nothing could take away from that, steroids or no steroids.

Here you go Mino already looked into this earlier in the thread

 

[Dale Mabry]

I don't think to the extreme roids does, in fact I don't even respond to creatine....not like I did when I tried test. back in the late 80's.

So cheating is only wrong if it is extreme? The fields today are optimal, pitchers are better, there are set up pitchers, I could go on. If it wasn't against the rules there should be no asterisk.

 

[Twin Peak]

Two words -- slippery slope.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Two words -- slippery slope.

Actually, he is African-American.

 

[min0 lee]

Here you go Mino already looked into this earlier in the thread

Wow, need I say more.

That's the first time I ever heard of Babe Ruth using a corked bat.

 

[Twin Peak]

Actually, he is African-American.

You are not at the top of your game today.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I thought that was a very nice use of racial epithets.

 

[min0 lee]

So cheating is only wrong if it is extreme? The fields today are optimal, pitchers are better, there are set up pitchers, I could go on. If it wasn't against the rules there should be no asterisk.

The fields are much smaller and the Baseball is wound much tighter.

Also there is the fatigue factor, you have a lot of ballplayers losing steam late in tthe season.

 

[bio-chem]

thats why its a joke to compare different generations. the hall of fame is for the best players of their time. and bond clearly is the best hitter of his generation. regardless of steroids the guy is an offensive machine. steroids (regardless of whether he used them) did not give him great dicipline in the strike zone (as evidenced by the amount of walks he gets a year) or teach him to hit a curve ball or slider. bonds deserves to be in regardless of steroids

 

[tucker01]

That's the first time I ever heard of Babe Ruth using a corked bat.

http://catalyst.umdnj.edu/plexus/?article_id=171

not really a great source.

Also tampered bats were banned in 1923 after it was found out that Babe Ruth was using a laminated bat.

 

[min0 lee]

Dear lord....not my Babe. I am going to forget I ever read this.