Skull Crushers vs CG Bench

[Mudge]

I guess we should all load up on the drugs then and find out which works best over the next 10 years, like the pros, the thickest of those coming from powerlifting backgrounds hmm.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

I agree with him, didn't we already make that clear?

Again, you're simply repeating ad nauseam that he is wrong. Unfortunately, you haven't said why he is wrong. Just that he is. Because everyone else thinks so. And that the professional routine is indisputable (?).

At least SF is interpreting the science. Why not do the same, and tell us your conclusions, and how you arrived there? I mean, if you really want to train like a bodybuilder, hit the juice.

 

[Var]

MTN Warrior, i dun want to pick a fight...but i must agree with SF on this. You do realize that the pro's don't really know shit when it somes to training. They have trainers telling them how to train, they have nutritionists telling them what to eat and doctors telling them what to shoot in their ass.

Now go take a college level kinesiology course and come back to argue your point.

 

[Saturday Fever]

Yeah that was gold. Their routines are indisputable! So is their GROSS abuse of steroids. If I injected as much shit as Ronnie Coleman, I could get shredded abs sitting on the pot taking a dump.

But back to what I said, and always say. Prove me wrong.

 

[Yanick]

Let me re-phrase then, as you are correct. The ROUTINE the pros use is indisuptable. And as far as I remember, I don't recall any of my physiology or biology teachers saying what Saturday is saying.

I said kinesiology, as in the study of human movement. Once you learn some basics, like triceps extend your elbow it doesn't matter whether you are holding the bar with a supinated or pronated grip or whether you are closing your left eye the tricep (all three heads) will still extend the elbow. The only thing being that the long head helps out with shoulder extension as it is the only one that crosses the shoulder joint.

 

[gr81]

hey MTN Warrior, tell me again which finishing school you attented..?

SF is right and if you can't debate with facts instead of unbased opinions then don't debate, it brings nothing to eth table but the shouting. peace bitches

 

[Saturday Fever]

You have OBVIOUSLY never taken a physiology course. I'm sorry, but you are so far out in left field on the subject that it isn't possible.

 

[MTN WARRIOR]

You sorry fucks amaze me. He has shown nothing, nothing I repeat. Just rendered his opinion of what he thinks. No scientific study, no facts, no bodybuilders who support him, no one, just his opinion. I can prove it with a half dozen scientific proofs, as I already did on this same subject on another thread. Plus EMG studies which AGAIN prove him wrong. Go to the EMG study depicting best exercises which also shows that different exercises stimulate the muscles diffently, different parts of the muslces differently. Theres your fucking proof. Where is Saturdasy, he has only said what he thinkks based on his opinion of k-ology. How you support that? HOW? What the fuck is wrong with you people? You all jump on the first bandwagon that comes along, despite years of evidence. This guy is nothing with no proof. SHow me something other than your opinion that says two muscles with the same insertion point cannot be affected differently by different exercises. Anything but your own dribble. Go to the other thread where most of the mods agreed with me.

 

[SPIKE1257]

Although I have 19" arms I feel sometimes they kinda look funny.

For someone with 19" guns, you post some elementary threads. Someone with 19" arms must know more then you lead people to believe, unless you are just genetically gifted and stumbled onto those arms by accident. So what's up ?

 

[P-funk]

this thread is silly, it has made me laugh.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

Mountain Warrior you are not very bright.

Here's a suggestion, pal: considering nobody here has taken your side, maybe it isn't ALL OF US WHO ARE SORRY FUCKS JUMPING ON THE BANDWAGON; maybe you are the moron touting an opinion that is wrong.

 

[Saturday Fever]

No way, Duncan. He is obviously right. He knows dick about physiology or kinesiology (which, of course, are the very CORE of what this whole thing is about) but he must be right because Arnold says so.

It's like Johnny's evil twin came to the board.

 

[pmech]

Agreed, at least Johnny was polite in his arguments.

 

[MTN WARRIOR]

And who is Saturday Night so special that he is automatically right, or you for that matter. How about the thousands of bbers who have written or had ghost written the facts that I am stating. Again, in another thread of this topic, EVERYONE agreed with me, do a search for Biceps or threads I was in. Yet again, no one has shown any proof other than the fact the the muscles have the same insertion points and that the assumption that a muscle cant be worked differently with different exercises. You all blow all your own workout routines right out the water. Otherwise you would all be doing one exercise for each body part. And you can blindly assume I have no medical training, or anatomy (of which you would be grossly wrong), and you can blindly, without fact agree with Saturday Night. But where are his facts?? Not his opinions, not the word from thousands of bbers who only do one exercise per bodypart. None. I am done responding until anyone shows a fact. Again, go to the EMG Best Exercises website quoted in another thread. FACT. No one has shown me any facts. Case closed.

 

[Saturday Fever]

I guess you're right. I haven't presented any facts. If you had ANY clue to human anatomy or physiology you wouldn't need me to spell out my explanations any more than I have. But since you don't have a clue about either topic, the point is completely eluding you.

Now then, these articles that you call "fact" by bodybuilders or their ghost-writers, rather. They aren't fact, you dope. Do you really think the top bodybuilder in the world would honestly post his routine for all of his competitors to gain access to?? Are you really this dense?

I mean, let's examine for a moment where these articles get posted. Rag mags. How do these magazines make money? They sell advertising space. If they gave anything remotely close to GOOD advice, people wouldn't need the supplements that companies are advertising. And those advertisers would take their money elsewhere. Magazines have a vested interest in giving naive children like you BAD INFORMATION. They want you to buy the supplements they're advertising, so they can keep their advertisers.

So, in summary, you don't recognize facts because you have ZERO basic knowledge of the human body or how it works and the crap YOU call facts are just a series of intentional misinformation meant to be taken as fact by newbies in an effort to generate revenue.

And in conclusion, since you lack the necessary mental tools to understand fact and fiction, I too will close this case.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

MTN warrior, you are the stupidest man alive.

You haven't presented one piece of evidence contradicting anything, paticularly your own lack of knowledge. All you say is he's wrong, that everyone disagrees with him, even though this forum is contradictory to your argument. That and you accused half the people being polite to you of being bandwagoners (but in more colorful language)

Keep on training like the ghost written mags say, and stop insulting other peoples opinions. Come up with your own.

 

[Saturday Fever]

Get back to us when you can lift like us.

 

[MTN WARRIOR]

I guess you're right. I haven't presented any facts. If you had ANY clue to human anatomy or physiology you wouldn't need me to spell out my explanations any more than I have. But since you don't have a clue about either topic, the point is completely eluding you.

Now then, these articles that you call "fact" by bodybuilders or their ghost-writers, rather. They aren't fact, you dope. Do you really think the top bodybuilder in the world would honestly post his routine for all of his competitors to gain access to?? Are you really this dense?

I mean, let's examine for a moment where these articles get posted. Rag mags. How do these magazines make money? They sell advertising space. If they gave anything remotely close to GOOD advice, people wouldn't need the supplements that companies are advertising. And those advertisers would take their money elsewhere. Magazines have a vested interest in giving naive children like you BAD INFORMATION. They want you to buy the supplements they're advertising, so they can keep their advertisers.

So, in summary, you don't recognize facts because you have ZERO basic knowledge of the human body or how it works and the crap YOU call facts are just a series of intentional misinformation meant to be taken as fact by newbies in an effort to generate revenue.

And in conclusion, since you lack the necessary mental tools to understand fact and fiction, I too will close this case.

SHOW ME ONE FACT YOU FUCKING MORON. YOU QUOTE NOTHING, YOU JUST SAY" THEMS THE FACTS AND IF YOU DONT KNOW THEN YER DUMB". YOU JUST REFUTE EVERYTHING AND DIMINISH PEOPLES OPINIONS. AND OK DUNCAN DONUTS, GP AGREES WITH ME OR I SHOULD SAY DISAGREES WITH SF, SO IS HE A DUMB FUCK.. SHOW ANY STUDY, ANYTHING YOU FUCKING JACKASS WITHOUT COMING BACK AND SAYING, "DUGH, ITS ALL SCIENCE". I say science is proving you wrong. BUT AGAIN YOU SHOW NOTHING. YOU ARE THE STUPIDEST MAN ALIVE, YOU ARE AN EVOLUTION IN STUPIDITY. YOU BRING IT TO NEW LEVELS. SO SHOW ME SOMETHING DUDE. COME ON PROVE IT, PROVE ANYTHING. ILL TAKE AN ARTICLE WRITTEN BY SOMOE MORON AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE. YOU JUST SAYING ITS SCIENCE IS WRONG. SCIENCE HAS NEVER SAID WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, NO TEACHER, NO TEXTBOOK. THEY TALK ABOUT MUSCLE CONSTRUCTION BUT NOT THAT YOU CANT "ATTACK" IT DIFFERENT WAYS AND GET DIFFERENT RESULTS. SHOW ME MOTHERFUCKER. YOU CANT, SO YOU PLAY ALL EDUCATED AND SHIT, WHEN YOU ARE THE LEAST EDUCATED PERSON, THE MOST BIASED IDIOT I HAVE SEEN ON HERE. TRAINER MY ASS. I wouldnt pay you a fucking nickle, because you only have one way, and it must be the best because you are the smartest.

 

[MTN WARRIOR]

Get back to us when you can lift like us.

AND DUDE, IVE SEEN YOUR PICTURE, YOU ARE NOTHING. IF YOU ARE SO SMART WHY ARENT YOU BIGGER OR MORE CUT. I JUST SAW YOUR PIC FOR THE FIRST TIME. WOW, YOU ARE NOTHING. TINY ARMED LITTLE MAN. I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOU. Get back when I can lift like you? Dude, I am way beyond you. I MEAN, ARE YOU KIDDING. AFTER TALKING ALL THAT TRASH AND YOU ARE NOTHING, ARE YOU KIDDING. TALK IS CHEAP, ACTION COSTS MONEY AND YOY OBVIOUSLY HAVENT PAID FOR ANY. GET IN THE GYM AND LIFT INSTEAD OF RUNNING YOUR COCK HOLSTER

 

[Duncans Donuts]

You wouldn't pay a nickel because you don't have a nickel, you broke ass piece of trailor trash horse shit.

OOP, i'm sorry, I got confused, and thought basing an argument around petty ass insults was the way to win an argument. I have realized, though, that it makes me look like a stupid piece of uneducated trash.

This is ridiculous. We've already gone over the science of this (in a thread called OUTER BICEPS, or whatever). If muscles share an insertion point, they contract together to perform the same function, blah blah. The argument has been made, you just like throwing insults at everyone an saying there wrong without saying why they are wrong. Grow up, you're what like 40 ?

 

[PreMier]

AND DUDE, IVE SEEN YOUR PICTURE, YOU ARE NOTHING. IF YOU ARE SO SMART WHY ARENT YOU BIGGER OR MORE CUT. I JUST SAW YOUR PIC FOR THE FIRST TIME. WOW, YOU ARE NOTHING. TINY ARMED LITTLE MAN. I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOU. Get back when I can lift like you? Dude, I am way beyond you. I MEAN, ARE YOU KIDDING. AFTER TALKING ALL THAT TRASH AND YOU ARE NOTHING, ARE YOU KIDDING. TALK IS CHEAP, ACTION COSTS MONEY AND YOY OBVIOUSLY HAVENT PAID FOR ANY. GET IN THE GYM AND LIFT INSTEAD OF RUNNING YOUR COCK HOLSTER

Did you miss his lifts in his sig? SF is going to be an Elite PL..

 

[pmech]

AND DUDE, IVE SEEN YOUR PICTURE, YOU ARE NOTHING. IF YOU ARE SO SMART WHY ARENT YOU BIGGER OR MORE CUT. I JUST SAW YOUR PIC FOR THE FIRST TIME. WOW, YOU ARE NOTHING. TINY ARMED LITTLE MAN. I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOU. Get back when I can lift like you? Dude, I am way beyond you. I MEAN, ARE YOU KIDDING. AFTER TALKING ALL THAT TRASH AND YOU ARE NOTHING, ARE YOU KIDDING. TALK IS CHEAP, ACTION COSTS MONEY AND YOY OBVIOUSLY HAVENT PAID FOR ANY. GET IN THE GYM AND LIFT INSTEAD OF RUNNING YOUR COCK HOLSTER

 

[Saturday Fever]

I'm not a trainer. Who said I was?

Since most people here seem uneducated in basic anatomy, here is some information that should lay the inner/outer, upper/lower chest debate to rest.

Aww that wasn't nice. Now I'm going to have to /pwn you.

"Wide grip benches can be wonderful for lateral pectoral mass but they will do very little for the medial fibers, because these fibers barely shorten at all when benching." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.

And *we* are the ones uneducated in basic anatomy? Sorry, but this is something an undergrad in any branch of exercise science would not hold as truth....let alone someone with a doctorate.

Basically, the length of the fibers of the pectoral muscles are such that they need to be brought through the full ROM for the inner myofilaments to contract (you need to bring your elbow to the midline of your body). Since motor units fire in succesion, and no morer motor units than necessary are recruited to 'make a lift', the inner fibers remain fairly un-called upon when performing regular benches (or even close-grip benches) because of the final position of the elbow. This is one reason that full ROM is important.

Quite incorrect. Motor unit recruitment is a function of muscular tension, not of joint angle. If the MU's at the inner part of the chest aren't contracted, then neither are the ones at the outer part.

I've previously posted quite a few references showing this to be the case in other chest isolation debates.

"Unfortunately there are still a few folks who mistakenly think that all the fibers in a muscle are recruited equally and optimally by just about any compound exercise around. Studies using electromyographic activity, however, clearly show that selective recruitment and mechanical contribution of region within a muscle are very real and very possible." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.

If you'd like a list of why EMG activity is crap for measuring muscular action, do a search. I've already posted it on this list before.

What he fails to realize here is that EMG does NOT show mechanical tension in the muscle. Only MRI can do that. Nor does he mention anything about force transmission through the complex, nor the fact that the selective "compartments" of motor unit recruitment vanish at tensions encountered in weight training due to that fact.

Again I've been over all this in much greater detail before.

"The pectoralis muscle has two heads. The clavicular head has an attachment on the anterior surface of the clavicle. The sternocostal head has an attachment site on the manubrium, the upper six costal cartileges and from the tendinous-like portion of the superior part of the external oblique muscle." (Adapted from Anatomy - A regional atlas of the human body by Clemente.)

The clavicular head and sternal head have different origins but share insertion at the intertubercular groove of the humerus.

Coincidentally they also perform the same function from a kinesiological standpoint.

And finally about inclines for upper chest mass:

"Because the fibers in the two heads run to the humerus at the shoulder joint from very different angles (and even the fiber trajectories differ considerably from superior to inferior along the sterno costal head) this permits varying degrees and levels of activation that are dependent in part on the shoulder angle whe the chest is exercised." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.

Angle of pennation may appear to have an effect at first, but in the end, if the thing's contracting, its contracting.

And to further this debate with further interactions:

Joint angle and MU recruitment are related, but only in the sense that the angle determines the amount of tension present.

Force is transmitted through the muscle from the origin to the insertion. What you're trying to say with the concept of an "inner" fiber is that somehow, a part of that line of force is contracting less than another part.

Like I said, I'll concede that there might be *some* variance between the clavicular and sternal heads given certain positioning (though even then its nothing major), but to extend the compartmentalization theory to a singular muscle is getting to the point of ridiculous.

If you stretch a rubber band, does the tension cluster at specific points, or does it distribute evenly?

And to go further into the debate:

So in order for the muscle fiber to contract it must contract equally along it's range? Is that what you're saying? I think you're just simply overlooking the sarcomer structure and how it functions mechanically. There is a definite varaince in the force transmission of the sarcomer depending on its length and this is related to the actin-myosin connections and how they are located.

Why would any single sarcomere vary in length with respect to others in the same myofibril? Even if they did, that's within single fibers; I'm talking more about the muscle as a whole.

I suggest that the fibers contract variably along their range since they change mechanical propreties at the sarcomer level when the lever moves through the ROM. Put simply, the lateral part of the fiber must reach full contractile force before the medial part does because of lever postion.

I can't agree with that explanation. A fiber is either on or off.....there is no degree of activation.

 

[Saturday Fever]

AND DUDE, IVE SEEN YOUR PICTURE, YOU ARE NOTHING. IF YOU ARE SO SMART WHY ARENT YOU BIGGER OR MORE CUT. I JUST SAW YOUR PIC FOR THE FIRST TIME. WOW, YOU ARE NOTHING. TINY ARMED LITTLE MAN. I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOU. Get back when I can lift like you? Dude, I am way beyond you. I MEAN, ARE YOU KIDDING. AFTER TALKING ALL THAT TRASH AND YOU ARE NOTHING, ARE YOU KIDDING. TALK IS CHEAP, ACTION COSTS MONEY AND YOY OBVIOUSLY HAVENT PAID FOR ANY. GET IN THE GYM AND LIFT INSTEAD OF RUNNING YOUR COCK HOLSTER

You military types are all the same, brainwashed and not all that bright. You, apparently, don't even understand what bodybuilding or powerlifting is. I weigh, currently, 201 pounds. I squat a hair under 600. I deadlift a hair over 600. I can bench halfway to 500. You can't do that, I'm sorry to say. And you know what's really funny? It only took me 2 years of serious lifting to get where I am. You've been doing this for an alleged 20 years and you're still behind.

 

[ikam]

Bodybuilder+meathead=MTN WARRIOR

 

[MTN WARRIOR]

I can type in my sig that I lift all that too. Doesnt mean a thing. You still aint shit and all that dribble in your last post was all you stuff, except the stuff by the PHD which proved my point more. I can out PT you ANY DAY EVERY DAY ALL DAY. You dont know what working out is scrawny little high school looking faggot. Non warrior with no heart and no mind. You have no heart wimp. Get off the juice man. And you dont know how much I can lift. Again, more assumption and dribble on your part. And tell youf ass licker buddy to get educated too. All that dribble you quoted was yourself. "Lets see, if I say, and then quote myself, people will believe me". Non warrior. You lose, again. But you are probably used to that. I am sure everyone else is sick of this so END OF DISCUSSION.

 

[ikam]

Lol, aye captain. Yes sir right away sir!!!

*sorry mods, couldn't help it, he just begs to be flamed, I mean seriously*

 

[Duncans Donuts]

MTN Warrior, you didn't refute one thing SF said. Not one. You have been ravaged in this argument, and you're resorting to sadder and sadder insults. I just checked your lifts, and the idea that you're insulting SF because you think he's not strong enough is a joke.

SF pointed out his argument, and you obviously are a fool who hasn't got one. Typically in an argument like this, you would take his quotes and EXPLAIN WHY THEY ARE WRONG.

 

[Saturday Fever]

It's all good. He is not who he claims. There is no way a grown man would talk like he does. Grown men don't sound like pre-pubescent teenagers.

He's just being a troll now. When I pasted a debate from a discussion on the Supertraining mailing list, it mentioned very simple physiological terms like "sarcomere" and "myofibril" but I'm sure he didn't understand a lick of it so he decided instead to go on a big rant that means absolutely nothing.

 

[MTN WARRIOR]

MTN Warrior, you didn't refute one thing SF said. Not one. You have been ravaged in this argument, and you're resorting to sadder and sadder insults. I just checked your lifts, and the idea that you're insulting SF because you think he's not strong enough is a joke.

SF pointed out his argument, and you obviously are a fool who hasn't got one. Typically in an argument like this, you would take his quotes and EXPLAIN WHY THEY ARE WRONG.

Ive never posted my lifts