Steroids?

[bjg]

lots here on this message board sound like they are for taking steroids for sporting events to help with performance/results..

i'm totally against it..

i'm also curious as to hearing results, or top placings in sporting events, before and after taking enhansing steroids..

i take my one a day vitamin, a little extra vitamin c and train my ass off. i use to be a 4:03 miler.never goy under the magic 4:00 mark, but i tried.. maybe taking epo would have helped me recover better to make my next training session eazier, but no way do i cheat, or would i put drugs in my body..if i cant run a sub 4:00, then i'll take a 4:03.

i currently bike race at the pro level.. could i be a faster pro by taking drugs? hell yes, but i choose not to.

whats everyones best results or placing before and then after drugs?

is it worth it?

you making a living at your sport?


i bet most that do drugs are your typical gym rat. no good, or average at best at sports, then they took up lifting.. benching 400 instead of 300.. big deal..


thank you

 

[bjg]

Psychologist

Why do people smoke, over eat, etc.?

You need a psychologist to understand that.

There are a variety of reasons.

Kenny Croxdale

so you just admitted indirectly that steroids are bad since you compared it with smoking , over eating etc...
i can tell you why i do bodybuilding i don't need a psychologist: i do it because i like it, to get in shape , healthier and better quality of life, physical and mental health, better in other sports and activities, in short a better person.

so why do you use steroids????

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

so you just admitted indirectly that steroids are bad since you compared it with smoking , over eating etc...

Steriods

Steriods are drugs. So, does that mean drugs are bad?

Like any drug, they needs to be used in a responsible manner.

When used in a proper manner they can be an effective tool.

When used with disregard, a health hazzard...like driving a car.

i can tell you why i do bodybuilding i don't need a psychologist: i do it because i like it, to get in shape , healthier and better quality of life, physical and mental health, better in other sports and activities, in short a better person.

Good for you.

so why do you use steroids????

Verb Conjugation

You need to learn verb conjugation. As I have stated, I TOOK them from 1977 to 1987.

I don't TAKE them now

Definition of Took And Take

Took is a past tense verb. It relates to an even in the past.

Take is a present tense verb. It applies to the present.

Do you understand the different?

Why do people smoke, over eat, etc.?

You're the one who doesn't need a physicologist to figure, your the PhD boy who knows. So, you tell me.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

[Car Deaths

Cars have killed more individuals (especially kids) on a percentage basis than anabolics.

Ban Car Use

If you want to save more lifes, especially kids lives, ban cars.

Kenny Croxdale[/COLOR]

and here you go you now use practical reality when you see it suits your argument.

Reality is MY Point

You have spewed out incorrect information. Even you have acknowledged your lack of knowledge.

"built you are right about me exaggerating things..."

the car example like cars kill more people than planes ..more than that is a bullshit statistical manipulation. cars also killed more people than cigarettes....these kind of statistics are used for a specific advertising but in reality when applying statistics there are many variables and parameters to consider otherwise it is bullshit. don't argue with me on that remember i am a PHD after all.

"..I am a PhD after all."

I'm glad we cleared that up. I thought you were selling Amway.

Ok, keep telling us that so we're sure to remember it.

Weren't you going to post your CV?

You believe that a PhD in one area makes you an expert in all areas.

As a PhD, you should know how to present reference but you don't.

How many kids you know chose to go in a car knowing that they will have an accident? but all the kids you know taking steroids are doing it on their own choice regardless of the consequences

Texting and Driving

How many kids you know chose to go in a car knowing they will have an accident? but all the kids you know texting are doing it on their own choice regardless of the consequences.

.....so that fact alone makes this statistical comparison as Bullshit and non valid since the two cases do not have the same conditions.

So, the deaths from kids texting while driving is exaggerated. Glad we cleared that up.

.....and to add: i write research articles, i do statistics and i know all the ins and outs of all this so called scientific evidence.

Then as a researcher and mathimagician you can provide a deeper insite into his. Looking forward to that.

Arguing To Be Arguing
Let take one step backward. I enjoy detabing issues.

Evidently, you appear to as well. You stated...

"i can show you that you are not up to the level in no time, but i have no time to waste on that."

If you didn't find this entertaining. You MAKE time for things you enjoy.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Built]

Maybe you can keep up some gained muscle after stopping steroids but this is in an ideal situation , practically i have yet to see a long term steroid user ho kept all his muscle gains after stopping steroids for good

All? No. Some? I've seen people keep at least some of their gains, many times.

...he might say he stopped but normally all of them lie about it, when he completely stops he will start going down ,in a year he will loose everything if not more than what he gained.

This is only true if the guy stops lifting and stops overeating. These are the idiots who should't have used to begin with.

of course he will keep his natural muscle and sometimes even that will diminish..seen it many times, with people who kept working out and kept good diet and they took whatever necessary steps not to loose muscle..

Obviously not, if they ended up smaller than they were before they went "on".

You must know a LOT of men who really, REALLY don't know how to eat and train for size.

Bummer.

finally went back to steroids this is the story and here it is not exaggerated at all ....can somebody tell me of a steroid user who completely stopped steroids (not for health reasons) for years i mean totally and sure that he is not lying about it?????

A good friend of mine did this actually. He wanted to marry and have kids, so he went off about five years ago and never went back on. He's got a family now, and competes in strongman competitions. PM me if you want to talk more on this - I'm respecting his privacy as he is not a member on this board.

now is damage to the liver exaggerated when steroids are long term used by young people?????

Liver damage comes from orals and prohormones. That's why intelligent users inject their steroids. Intelligent users also get regular bloodwork.

Are you healthier if you are young and rely on steroids????

Stop it with the constant focus on kids. Nobody wants to see kids on gear.

Is bodybuilding to you only about looks, what about health????

Looks.

Good health often falls out as a welcome side-effect, but bodybuilding is about looks. Put it this way: I really like how I feel from this, but if it didn't make me look good, I'd find another sport.

In Bodybuilding Steroids will slowly kill you while giving you the illusion that you are getting better

Please stop lying.

but in reality it is killing you from the inside.

This is just not true.

you might want to be tempted to try them and look better temporarily but you have to know when to stop.
medicine must be treated as medicine when the benefits outweigh the harm period.

\It is easy to look up the list of young athletes, sprinters, bodybuilders who died young ..was it by bad luck??

There are so few steroid users who have had serious health problems from the substances they take, when it does, it makes the news. It's very uncommon, and considering most of the drugs people take are sold on the black market, this really is remarkable.

just google search about the study done on wrestlers who used steroids for years and you will see chocking results and the percentage of them who died young in their 40's and the percentage of them who has problems.

What percentage of them died young?

here are the words of the late baseball player Caminity:

Caminiti's best season was 1996 when, at age 33, he hit 40 homers had 130 runs batted in and a .326 batting average.

He said the steroid use was catching up to him.

"My tendons and ligaments got all torn up. My muscles got too strong for my tendons and ligaments.

Every professional athlete has injuries. A young friend of mine tore up his knees playing football (no steroids) in high school. Now in his twenties, he's a competitive weightlifter (Olympic lifting) but his lifts will be forever compromised by the knee damage he suffered when he was sixteen.

"And now my body's not producing testosterone. You know what that's like? You get lethargic. You get depressed. It's terrible."

This happens to people who never used, as well. My husband went on HRT at 42 and when our doctor gave him his first injection, that was the first time my husband had ever used steroids.

Caminiti is the latest in a long line of athletes to die at a young age after admitting to using performance enhancing drugs.

What long line?

I'm amused when people want to talk about steroids and their impact on the game, I'm more concerned about steroids and their impact on the human being.

Then read up on the benefits as well as the perils. Until then, stop spouting nonsense. You are making more of an argument FOR using them, than against. The same thing happened with "Reefer Madness" - wildly exaggerated claims about the dangers of marijuana made people simply distrust those who spoke against it - their own experience demonstrated the opposite so they simply ignored anything said by "the MAN" as propaganda.

 

[bjg]

BUILT:
don't you see that there always "if s" in your arguments? in real life there are no "ifs"
sure people can have lower testosterone without using steroids like they can get lung cancer without being smokers...there are many reasons that lead to the same problem , does this justify adding one more reason????because someone had low testosterone and he was not using steroids does this mean that steroids won't lower testosterone? you are using the logic of kids who say i wanna do this and that because my friend is doing it and he is ok.
And sure athletes can have injuries without steroids, but does this mean steroids will not give them injuries??????????
people also are going to die so let us jump from a building we are going to die anyways some day...that is your logic.
By the way the baseball player who had injuries died as i stated in my post...yes he could die from a heart attack with no steroids, but does this mean that he can do steroids and it is not going to kill him???

you answered my question clearly: bodybuilding for you is for LOOKS regardless of health. so i rest my case

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

BUILT:
don't you see that there always "if s" in your arguments? in real life there are no "ifs"

Real Life is ALL about IFs

Everyday is build on "Ifs". You never know exactly what going to happen.

Life is like the song...

Right Place, Wrong Time

I've been in the right place but it was the wrong time...

I was in wrong place but it must have been the right time.

Sing along: B.B. King Bonnie Raitt Right time, wrong place Air America - YouTube

Cracker Jacks

Life is like a box of cracker jacks with the prize in it.

You never know each day what you're going to come up with...no matter how well you plan it.

you answered my question clearly: bodybuilding for you is for LOOKS regardless of health. so i rest my case

Ancillary Benefit

Bodybuilding (most sports activities) provides health benefits.

While the focus is on increasing muscle mass, cutting body fat and performance, one of the side benefits is better health.

Pushing The Limit

Serious athlete will push themself to the limit and sometimes beyond.

Crossing The Line

Every serious athlete has unknowingly pushed it beyond the line.

The problems is you don't exactly where the line is until you pass the line until you get there.

Another one Reality's IFs

That another one of Reality's IFs.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[bjg]

sorry kenny but and this is not to answer you it is just general statements for everybody:
1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do
2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit
3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy
....taking advil everyday is not healthy ..what about taking a list of crap just to build muscle mass and get a better look. steroids use could harm you with or without medical assistance and in the long run it will for sure harm you and will NOT make you look better and will not make you stronger it is all temporary ,and frankly i don't see many of the users get medical assistance they just get advice from their friend.
4- Since when more muscle mass = better looks ?
5- Bodybuilding should not be confused with professional bodybuilding where there it is definitely not healthy
6- steroids and other hormonal and prohormonal substances are medicine and not for recreational purposes they are only to be used as medicine when benefits outweigh the harm or when there are no other solutions, when used for recreational purposes they are not healthy. Show me one single doctor who would prescribe steroids to somebody (who is not a professional athlete) out of recreational reasons and i'll show you a doctor who is in danger of loosing his permit to practice why? because it is against the profession to harm people
7 Steroids are banned substance for medical reasons, what is the other reason?
some advertise it and encourage its use for commercial reasons.

SO please stop arguing for a lost cause.....PEOPLE ARE FREE TO USE STEROIDS AND WHATEVER TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER BUT THIS DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DEFEND STEROID USE.
like people can smoke but they will be fooling themselves by saying cigarettes would not harm them

 

[heckler7]

sorry kenny but and this is not to answer you it is just general statements for everybody:
1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do
2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit
3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy
....taking advil everyday is not healthy ..what about taking a list of crap just to build muscle mass and get a better look. steroids use could harm you with or without medical assistance and in the long run it will for sure harm you and will NOT make you look better and will not make you stronger it is all temporary ,and frankly i don't see many of the users get medical assistance they just get advice from their friend.
4- Since when more muscle mass = better looks ?
5- Bodybuilding should not be confused with professional bodybuilding where there it is definitely not healthy
6- steroids and other hormonal and prohormonal substances are medicine and not for recreational purposes they are only to be used as medicine when benefits outweigh the harm or when there are no other solutions, when used for recreational purposes they are not healthy. Show me one single doctor who would prescribe steroids to somebody (who is not a professional athlete) out of recreational reasons and i'll show you a doctor who is in danger of loosing his permit to practice why? because it is against the profession to harm people
7 Steroids are banned substance for medical reasons, what is the other reason?
some advertise it and encourage its use for commercial reasons.

SO please stop arguing for a lost cause.....PEOPLE ARE FREE TO USE STEROIDS AND WHATEVER TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER BUT THIS DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DEFEND STEROID USE.
like people can smoke but they will be fooling themselves by saying cigarettes would not harm them

I agree with some of this, but its the life I choose. You sound just like my best friend who smokes tons of weed drinks every weekend and eats lots of junk labeled organic and thinks he is healthy and natural at the gym.

 

[TooOld]

sorry kenny but and this is not to answer you it is just general statements for everybody:
1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do
2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit
3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy
....taking advil everyday is not healthy ..what about taking a list of crap just to build muscle mass and get a better look. steroids use could harm you with or without medical assistance and in the long run it will for sure harm you and will NOT make you look better and will not make you stronger it is all temporary ,and frankly i don't see many of the users get medical assistance they just get advice from their friend.
4- Since when more muscle mass = better looks ?
5- Bodybuilding should not be confused with professional bodybuilding where there it is definitely not healthy
6- steroids and other hormonal and prohormonal substances are medicine and not for recreational purposes they are only to be used as medicine when benefits outweigh the harm or when there are no other solutions, when used for recreational purposes they are not healthy. Show me one single doctor who would prescribe steroids to somebody (who is not a professional athlete) out of recreational reasons and i'll show you a doctor who is in danger of loosing his permit to practice why? because it is against the profession to harm people
7 Steroids are banned substance for medical reasons, what is the other reason?
some advertise it and encourage its use for commercial reasons.

SO please stop arguing for a lost cause.....PEOPLE ARE FREE TO USE STEROIDS AND WHATEVER TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER BUT THIS DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DEFEND STEROID USE.
like people can smoke but they will be fooling themselves by saying cigarettes would not harm them

What a crock of shit.

 

[sassy69]

sorry kenny but and this is not to answer you it is just general statements for everybody:
1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do
2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit
3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy
....taking advil everyday is not healthy ..what about taking a list of crap just to build muscle mass and get a better look. steroids use could harm you with or without medical assistance and in the long run it will for sure harm you and will NOT make you look better and will not make you stronger it is all temporary ,and frankly i don't see many of the users get medical assistance they just get advice from their friend.
4- Since when more muscle mass = better looks ?
5- Bodybuilding should not be confused with professional bodybuilding where there it is definitely not healthy
6- steroids and other hormonal and prohormonal substances are medicine and not for recreational purposes they are only to be used as medicine when benefits outweigh the harm or when there are no other solutions, when used for recreational purposes they are not healthy. Show me one single doctor who would prescribe steroids to somebody (who is not a professional athlete) out of recreational reasons and i'll show you a doctor who is in danger of loosing his permit to practice why? because it is against the profession to harm people
7 Steroids are banned substance for medical reasons, what is the other reason?
some advertise it and encourage its use for commercial reasons.

SO please stop arguing for a lost cause.....PEOPLE ARE FREE TO USE STEROIDS AND WHATEVER TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER BUT THIS DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DEFEND STEROID USE.
like people can smoke but they will be fooling themselves by saying cigarettes would not harm them

Broadly speaking I think steroids have been overly demonized - you talk about how they should only be used for medical purposes. I think you'll find, as Built noted, there are precious few doctors who are well-versed in the science and use of anabolics, so they are also running on the general fear of them. The perfect example is: OMG running a low dose cycle will shut down your natural test and your peepee will shrink. DONT" DO IT! Versus: Here use advil. Sure it may eat the lining of your stomach, but just don't use too much. There are sides that come w/ the introduction of anything into your system.

The other point I want to make is the probably more sad than we really understand, just how underutilized steroids are in medical treatment because of the demonization of them, and marketing / legal push by big pharma to make them bad, and law enforcement shutting down any doctors who do deal in hormones because they're "bad", so instead big pharma's other drugs can be pushed to "fix" whatever it is that is actually due to hormone imbalance. Perfect example - big push to prescribe anti-depressants to treat what is actually low testosterone levels. Which, btw is the exact impact of andropause. So by making this big deal of "YOU CAN"T DEFEND STEROIDS", the overkill on it is actually pushing the use of other shit so big pharma can make money on stuff that most likely is even less well-understood and promotes a whole rainbow of other sides.

 

[Calves of Steel]

A good friend of mine used to get very very bad muscle cramps. He had been going to doctors for years and a few times he was hospitalized for them. To this day they still don't know why they occured. Out of fear that one day his ''heart would cramp'' my friend began using testosterone. He stayed on it for a few months and has not had them since. Those cramps were ruining his life. I completely defend his decision to use steroids illegally and against his doctor's will.

As for me, lifting was always a huge part of my life. I lifted natural for a little over 9 years, and then decided to try steroids and I think they're fun. I take them for a while and really enjoy it, then take some time off, get my bloodwork, then go back on. Honestly, some people (including myself) tolerate them very well. I'm still in great health. My cholesterol is out of this world good. I had it checked right after my last cycle, and my HDL was 61, and LDL was 98! So yea they're fun. Is there a price to pay? Yes. Is it a big price? Sometimes, but not always, and in my case I think it's well worth the price. You live one time.

If a person naturally produces low levels of testosterone, They can take testosterone, and have normal levels. Isn't that great? Now everyone has a shot at good genetics.

 

[bjg]

Broadly speaking I think steroids have been overly demonized - you talk about how they should only be used for medical purposes. I think you'll find, as Built noted, there are precious few doctors who are well-versed in the science and use of anabolics, so they are also running on the general fear of them. The perfect example is: OMG running a low dose cycle will shut down your natural test and your peepee will shrink. DONT" DO IT! Versus: Here use advil. Sure it may eat the lining of your stomach, but just don't use too much. There are sides that come w/ the introduction of anything into your system.

The other point I want to make is the probably more sad than we really understand, just how underutilized steroids are in medical treatment because of the demonization of them, and marketing / legal push by big pharma to make them bad, and law enforcement shutting down any doctors who do deal in hormones because they're "bad", so instead big pharma's other drugs can be pushed to "fix" whatever it is that is actually due to hormone imbalance. Perfect example - big push to prescribe anti-depressants to treat what is actually low testosterone levels. Which, btw is the exact impact of andropause. So by making this big deal of "YOU CAN"T DEFEND STEROIDS", the overkill on it is actually pushing the use of other shit so big pharma can make money on stuff that most likely is even less well-understood and promotes a whole rainbow of other sides.

it is a misconception that not too many doctors don't know about steroids....they use them all the time , they just don't use them for fun...bodybuilders when doing a cycle take a dosage ten times or more than when it is used to treat a serious 3d degree burn victim or some other catastrophic medical case.
some people are smart about it just for fun try them for a short period and stop...well if they can do that fine...but unfortunately most don't
you can try few cigarettes too it won't kill you , iam talking about long term use , somebody who depends on steroids to get the look he/she wants...

 

[Built]

it is a misconception that not too many doctors don't know about steroids....they use them all the time , they just don't use them for fun..

The steroid most commonly used by doctors is cortisone - a catabolic hormone.

Look around this board for the HRT-related posts. Ask some of the older fellas how hard it was to get appropriate replacement treatment. Ask jagbender - he's gone through hell trying to get appropriate care. My own husband was initially offered a dosing schedule that would have been a disaster - peak and crash, one shot every two weeks.

My best friend went through this when he first went on HRT (he's sixty). He didn't want to change what the doctor ordered, so he took his first shot, felt great for a few days, then crashed - hard - by about day 9. Day 14 he got another shot - and took over his own dosing.

He has pinned twice a week ever since (same dose, just spread out) but the PDR suggests dosing this way and that's how the doctors respond. Their goal isn't optimizing care - it's compliance. The understanding is that patients won't multi-dose; that it's easier to encourage compliance with a less frequent dosing schedule.

.bodybuilders when doing a cycle take a dosage ten times or more than when it is used to treat a serious 3d degree burn victim or some other catastrophic medical case.

I see. They're safe if you're near death - it's only if you're healthy they are unsafe.

Gotcha.

some people are smart about it just for fun try them for a short period and stop...well if they can do that fine...but unfortunately most

MOST? How do you know this is the case for most?

don't
you can try few cigarettes too it won't kill you , iam talking about long term use , somebody who depends on steroids to get the look he/she wants...

I know a lot of people - personally and in real life - who use and who have used steroids to achieve the look they wanted. My friends who use are all intelligent about their use. None of these friends has experienced any untoward side effects or ill health. All of them have followed up with their doctors for regular bloodwork and health checks (thank you socialized medicine!).

Still, your warning is a prudent reminder to understand the substances you take, follow up with blood work, and be respectful of the demands you place upon your body.

 

[STP0008]

Just a puppy...

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

it is a misconception that not too many doctors don't know about steroids....they use them all the time , they just don't use them for fun...

Doctors and Anabolic Steriods

Medical doctors are clueless about anabolic steriods.

Use Them All The Time

Medical doctors prescribe corticosteroid.

Anabolic and corticosteroid are completely different.

i am talking about long term use

Show Me The Bodies

Present the names and information on them.

So, this is a no brainer for a PhD with a crystal ball.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[bjg]

Doctors and Anabolic Steriods

Medical doctors are clueless about anabolic steriods.

Use Them All The Time

Medical doctors prescribe corticosteroid.

Anabolic and corticosteroid are completely different.


Show Me The Bodies

Present the names and information on them.

So, this is a no brainer for a PhD with a crystal ball.

Kenny Croxdale

anabolic steroids were developed originally for medical purposes, thus to be used by doctors and were used by doctors long before they started using them in sports....
my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids...
doctors study many years ..so i don't think if we read few articles here and there and interpret them the way we want this means that we know more
it is like you reading some engineering articles on topics and you come argue with me that i don't know anything...it maybe i just have no time for you.
you just cannot become an expert on a specific subject without studying the basis, taking courses , you just can't be an expert on antennas for example just by reading few articles ..you need to study and take many university courses then read the articles.

 

[sassy69]

anabolic steroids were developed originally for medical purposes, thus to be used by doctors and were used by doctors long before they started using them in sports....
my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids...
doctors study many years ..so i don't think if we read few articles here and there and interpret them the way we want this means that we know more
it is like you reading some engineering articles on topics and you come argue with me that i don't know anything...it maybe i just have no time for you.
you just cannot become an expert on a specific subject without studying the basis, taking courses , you just can't be an expert on antennas for example just by reading few articles ..you need to study and take many university courses then read the articles.

I've heard doctors get about 9 hrs of nutrition education in a complete MD. Just because you're a doctor does not mean you're going to find every one of them w/ an extended amount of information on steroids. As I mentioned most are heavily encouraged to NOT mess w/ them because the pharma industry and the demonization of them by law enforcement. Also as I mentioned, in conversation w/ friends and a plethora of anecdotal stories from men and women about doctors who have readily and w/o hesitation, put them on anti-depressants instead of even bothering to look at a basic hormone profile to determine if test, progest or estro levels were a possible / probable source.

 

[Built]

anabolic steroids were developed originally for medical purposes, thus to be used by doctors and were used by doctors long before they started using them in sports....
my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids...
doctors study many years ..so i don't think if we read few articles here and there and interpret them the way we want this means that we know more
it is like you reading some engineering articles on topics and you come argue with me that i don't know anything...it maybe i just have no time for you.
you just cannot become an expert on a specific subject without studying the basis, taking courses , you just can't be an expert on antennas for example just by reading few articles ..you need to study and take many university courses then read the articles.

Prove it.

Ask your ortho buddies the following question:
A man comes to you with injuries to his knee. He is not a competitive athlete and will never be drug-tested. He will have his knee reconstructed, and is in his forties. A hormone panel is run, and his testosterone is found to be in the low level of normal. The man is not obese, and is reasonable shape. His blood sugars are slightly high, but not high enough for a diagnosis of type II diabetes. His lipid levels show mild elevation and a slightly unfavourable ratio. He is reasonably active, and on no other medications.

You decide to prescribe anabolics to help him heal the injury following surgery to reconstruct his ACL and trim away excess cartilage. The donor tissue for the ACL came from his own hamstring.

a) which drugs will you use to help him recover?
b) describe how each of these drugs will assist as he recovers from the surgery.
c) indicate the doses you will use, injection frequency, and duration of this treatment.
d) describe, in detail, how you will withdraw treatment and ensure the man's own testosterone production will be restored.

 

[Gazhole]

1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do

Why? Increasing lean tissue leads to numerous health benefits and
reducing your bodyfat is also associated with numerous health benefits.


- Increased muscle mass leads to better insulin sensitivity (Relative Muscle Mass Is Inversely Associated with Insulin Resistance and Prediabetes. Findings from The Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey)

- Low muscle mass and high central adiposity are predictors of early mortality (Decreased muscle mass and increased central adiposity are independently related to mortality in older men)

- Muscle mass is important in the prevention of diabetes, obesity, and osteoporosis (The underappreciated role of muscle in health and disease)

- Decreased muscle mass is associated with cancer and higher intraabdominal fat is a risk factor for cardiac death (Anthropometric estimates of muscle and fat mass in relation to cardiac and cancer mortality in men: the Paris Prospective Study)


So, and forgive my french, you're talking out of your fucking arse.

2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit

Oh and pray tell what is this magical limit? Forgetting the fact than you just contradicted yourself. What is the difference between bulking up and increasing muscle mass? They are the same thing.

I know people who comfortably walk around at 10-12% bodyfat or even slightly lower all year round, have done for years, and are healthy as hell. One guy i know is in his fifties and has sub-10% bodyfat. He does not look or act like a man in his fifties. How is this in any way unhealthy?

Bodybuilders don't maintain the competition level of fat all year round because it's too taxing on the body and the mind to diet so hard all the time, so what's the problem?

Also, this study shows that the healthy lower limit of bodyfat is around 4-6% before lean mass is sacrificed (unhealthy) which is around the bodybuilder competition level. So again, fuck you. In the ass.
(Lower limit of body fat in healthy active men)

3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy

What. The. Fuck. So point one is "bulking and cutting is unhealthy" point two is "increasing muscle and cutting is healthy to a certain extent" and point three is "increasing muscle and cutting is not healthy".

Are you fucking high? Or just an idiot?

4- Since when more muscle mass = better looks ?

Since the times in the distant past when men were men, women were men, children were men, and even the fucking animals were men. Since before television, ready meals, fast food, and laziness infiltrated the minds of the general public and festered there like a cancer convincing them that one more snack cake is fine, they deserve to be loved unconditionally, everybody will find "the one", and the illusion that everything will be given them on a plate.

Increased muscle mass exhibits an ability to DO THINGS. Stronger, bigger muscles on a toned lean frame doesn't only reflect physical health, fitness, and physical ability but a mental strength to resist being a lazy good-for-nothing tub of lard on a sofa somewhere.

If you think a huge flabby bingo wing is more attractive than a shapely tricep and peaked bicep then you need help.

5- Bodybuilding should not be confused with professional bodybuilding where there it is definitely not healthy

Professional denotes only that they do it as their primary source of income. If i do a bodybuilding show for free, then the next one i get paid enough to leave my job then technically i am a professional. Where in that ambiguous time period do i go from healthy to unhealthy in your mind?

I'm not saying all bodybuilders are healthy, Andreas Munzer was incredibly unhealthy, but Arnold, Franco, Zane...they are all old men now. And last time i checked they were doing just fine. Ronnie Coleman is getting there and he's a more modern bodybuilder, i know far more people at his age who are unhealthy
from doing nothing.

6- steroids and other hormonal and prohormonal substances are medicine and not for recreational purposes they are only to be used as medicine when benefits outweigh the harm or when there are no other solutions, when used for recreational purposes they are not healthy.

If you used steroids incorrectly for a completely legitimate medicinal purpose then would that be healthier than a bodybuilder using them the right way to get bigger?

What "harm" are you talking about when you cycle a compound the correct way?

- Inject to protect your liver.
- Use only the minimum dosage required to get results.
- Only stay on the cycle a short period of time.
- Correctly use PCT to restore natural functions.
- Get bloodwork done pre-, peri-, and post-cycle. Adjust cycle accordingly (including cutting it short) if problems arise.
- Combine the cycle with good diet, exercise.
- Act like a responsible adult and realize you're fucking around with something that could potentially kill you.

And before you jizz your pants at that last point, you can die fairly easily by taking over-the-counter completely legal pain killers like paracetamol. I would say that most people don't even check the dosage before throwing a few painkillers down them, then drinking alcohol or something without a thought to the consequences.

Don't hide behind the fact that steroids are illegal. Legality does not alter the effects of the compound, just it's perceived safety. A dangerous situation, no?

7 Steroids are banned substance for medical reasons, what is the other reason?

Retarded laws. Idiots like you blowing shit out of proportion.

SO please stop arguing for a lost cause.....PEOPLE ARE FREE TO USE STEROIDS AND WHATEVER TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER BUT THIS DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DEFEND STEROID USE.
like people can smoke but they will be fooling themselves by saying cigarettes would not harm them

Do you want a list of all the studies that prove smoking is bad? Do you want me to compare it to the list of studies that show steroids are bad? It would be like me whipping my dick out at a Lex Steele fan convention. Laughable.

Of course people have the right to defend what ever they want. Even steroid abuse. Who are you to take that right away from me, you cunt? I'm not going out on the street selling dbol to children. I'm saying look at the facts, not blindly fearmongering.

Also, for the record, from a personal moral standpoint i'm against AAS use. I have never, and will never, use this stuff. I don't want it, i don't need it, but unlike you i've taken the time to understand it and make an informed decision for the right reasons.

If you want to have a battle of wits on this forum, don't come in unarmed again. Kay?

Edit: Wow, i swear a lot. Nothing personal.

 

[bjg]

ive seen coleman off season he looks like a bag f.....about 50 lbs more tha his normal weight , then in competition he is lean etc...this habit of gaining so much weight then cut down is very unhealthy (when it is a habit ) when done year after year , any regular dramatic weight wings are very bad to your health.
Professional athletes are not like us Gazhole they go to the extreme to achieve perfomance to earn money. their working life is too short and they have to do the maximum in a short time...most of them suffer after retirement which come early.
A soccer player is labeled "old" when he is about 35, a boxer retires in his 30's, etc.. most of these athletes had to take supplements to ba able to cope with the rythm of their work. many pro bodybuilders have health problems in their 50's because of long term abuse to their body...a sport when pushed beyond your natural limits by means of drugs becomes unhealthy itself , too much stress on your body because not all the parts in your body are getting stronger at a time.
my friend is a doctor and he is representative of a pharamaceutical company , he took steroids for a long time and was a power lifter, now at nearly 50 he is having hip joint replacement (prosthetic joints) and he himself with his own words he balmed it on steroids and years of overlifting. i cannot give his name it is not my right , he lives in Texas austin.
and Gazhole all medicine are basically harmful at some level they are only taken when the benefit outweigh the harm, this is why there is an "overdosage" warning in the label of every medicine....radiation therapy for example can cause cancer and they use radiation to treat cancer , Why , because at this stage there are no more risks the patient is in bad shape to start with and nothing to loose.
Of course you can use steroids for short periods of time , but in the long run it will catch up with you, medicine taken to protect your liver is probably as bad as the steroids themselves , it may hurt you somewhere else.
WIth steroids your body will be looking good for a while then you will go down , the again steroids...and then again go down..whereas without steroids you are not going through tdramatic cycles and your body is improving all the time. Let us see a man like coleman in 5 years how his body will be able to respond to exercise if he stops all the crap he is ingesting.

 

[bjg]

Prove it.

Ask your ortho buddies the following question:
A man comes to you with injuries to his knee. He is not a competitive athlete and will never be drug-tested. He will have his knee reconstructed, and is in his forties. A hormone panel is run, and his testosterone is found to be in the low level of normal. The man is not obese, and is reasonable shape. His blood sugars are slightly high, but not high enough for a diagnosis of type II diabetes. His lipid levels show mild elevation and a slightly unfavourable ratio. He is reasonably active, and on no other medications.

You decide to prescribe anabolics to help him heal the injury following surgery to reconstruct his ACL and trim away excess cartilage. The donor tissue for the ACL came from his own hamstring.

a) which drugs will you use to help him recover?
b) describe how each of these drugs will assist as he recovers from the surgery.
c) indicate the doses you will use, injection frequency, and duration of this treatment.
d) describe, in detail, how you will withdraw treatment and ensure the man's own testosterone production will be restored.

built he will for sure laugh at me , no offense but he has no time for our bullshit on the forum, i can barely go out for dinner with him, but believe me he treats sports injuries and he probably has read more books and taken more courses than the national library the guy is a nerd.
i can prove my point myself you can go ahead and read any articles you want, in biomedical signal processing , i 'll give you a year, then come and argue with me

 

[Gazhole]

ive seen coleman off season he looks like a bag f.....about 50 lbs more tha his normal weight , then in competition he is lean etc...this habit of gaining so much weight then cut down is very unhealthy (when it is a habit ) when done year after year , any regular dramatic weight wings are very bad to your health.

Is it? The body is naturally geared towards cycles of over-eating and cycles of undereating. This is why we have multiple stores of energy such as glycogen and fat. This ability evolved over millions of years of not having food available in supermarkets whenever we want it. We needed to be able to store a lot of energy for those times when food was scarce.

Professional athletes are not like us Gazhole they go to the extreme to achieve perfomance to earn money. their working life is too short and they have to do the maximum in a short time...most of them suffer after retirement which come early.

Whereas the regular Joe suffers his entire life and dies early because he's lazy, doesn't exercise, eats like shit, and smokes and drinks indiscriminately. I'll take joint problems over premature cardiac death or obesity any day, thanks.

A soccer player is labeled "old" when he is about 35, a boxer retires in his 30's, etc.. most of these athletes had to take supplements to ba able to cope with the rythm of their work. many pro bodybuilders have health problems in their 50's because of long term abuse to their body...a sport when pushed beyond your natural limits by means of drugs becomes unhealthy itself , too much stress on your body because not all the parts in your body are getting stronger at a time.

Hence proper exercise programming. Athletes retire because your body ages and can't recover as well as it used to. This is nothing to do with drugs, it's called getting old.

my friend is a doctor and he is representative of a pharamaceutical company , he took steroids for a long time and was a power lifter, now at nearly 50 he is having hip joint replacement (prosthetic joints) and he himself with his own words he balmed it on steroids and years of overlifting. i cannot give his name it is not my right , he lives in Texas austin.

My friend is an elite athlete. He lives on the moon and told me steroids made his dick bigger and doubled his bank account. This is meaningless crap. If you want to make a point, post some research like i have.

and Gazhole all medicine are basically harmful at some level they are only taken when the benefit outweigh the harm, this is why there is an "overdosage" warning in the label of every medicine....radiation therapy for example can cause cancer and they use radiation to treat cancer , Why , because at this stage there are no more risks the patient is in bad shape to start with and nothing to loose.

Thanks for the pointless tangent.

My point was that steroids are no more dangerous than any other medicine, which you seem to agree with. So long as you take them right, whats the problem?

Of course you can use steroids for short periods of time , but in the long run it will catch up with you, medicine taken to protect your liver is probably as bad as the steroids themselves , it may hurt you somewhere else.

You can also take ibuprofen for a short time before it causes stomach ulcers and thins your blood. Your point please?

WIth steroids your body will be looking good for a while then you will go down , the again steroids...and then again go down..whereas without steroids you are not going through tdramatic cycles and your body is improving all the time. Let us see a man like coleman in 5 years how his body will be able to respond to exercise if he stops all the crap he is ingesting.

Yes, lets. Lets also see if you get anywhere near the direction of being correct within 5 years.

 

[jagbender]

I am 50 Y/o and on TRT under Doctor supervision. I am hypogonadal and take Testosterone weekly. I started a serious fat loss program 2-26-11
I have acheived these results from SERIOUS diet and EXERCISE. see my journal.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids....

Medical Doctors Are NOT Pharmacologist

...study disease. Medical doctors have MAYBE 6 hours of pharmacology.

Medical Morons

Any medical doctor who considers him/herself an expert on drugs is a moron. They are clueless.

doctors study many years ...

Study Disease

They study disease not pharmacology.

PhD

For a guy who supposedly has a PhD, you one of the dumbest indviduals I've ever seen.

NO Time

And for a guy who had NO time...as you stated, "i can show you that you are not up to the level in no time, but i have no time to waste on that."...you sure MAKE time.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[bjg]

my point gazhole is that steroids are unnecessary risk and are not worth it , you can be patient and accomplish what you want to accomplish without them, it will last you for life and will not have to worry about it.
i am 50 now and as strong as fast as i was at 30 ...no problem ...this was done through hard work. All my workout buddies ranging from 20 years old to 40years old cannot keep up with me in the gym with their roids their ephedrine, their creatine and whatever they take and trust me most of them are in competition shape..like you they claim that they know it all ...i make fun of them (joking of course) in the gym everytime we challenge each other in push ups or pull ups or running and even in some lifting...no contest
i can stop lifting for a year and get back to where i am now in a month.
So what is this big deal if you get to lift 300 instead of 400 (with cheating) ???
so what if your arms are 17 inches instead of 18? since when 21 inch arms are better looking than 17 inch arms???????
what is the big deal?? are steroids and other stupidities ingested worth it? just for the fact that you have to remember taking your pills every day and so is revolting to me...it is like you can't live without your accessories. why all that???????? can't you do the same by just working your ass?
Ironically in my gym we are around 3 or 4 who never used steroids among maybe 50 ..and guess what? we probably are the strongest and most fit in the gym , we don't look the biggest by no means and not the best bodybulding shape at all, many of them can compete now in pro competitions , however as far as physical strength and health and stamina they just fall short...looks only..what a shame

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

my point gazhole is that steroids are unnecessary risk and are not worth it , you can be patient and accomplish what you want to accomplish without them, it will last you for life and will not have to worry about it.
i am 50 now and as strong as fast as i was at 30 ...no problem ...this was done through hard work. All my workout buddies ranging from 20 years old to 40years old cannot keep up with me in the gym with their roids their ephedrine, their creatine and whatever they take and trust me most of them are in competition shape..like you they claim that they know it all ...i make fun of them (joking of course) in the gym everytime we challenge each other in push ups or pull ups or running and even in some lifting...no contest
i can stop lifting for a year and get back to where i am now in a month.
So what is this big deal if you get to lift 300 instead of 400 (with cheating) ???
so what if your arms are 17 inches instead of 18? since when 21 inch arms are better looking than 17 inch arms???????
what is the big deal?? are steroids and other stupidities ingested worth it? just for the fact that you have to remember taking your pills every day and so is revolting to me...it is like you can't live without your accessories. why all that???????? can't you do the same by just working your ass?

You're A GOD!

How much would it cost for me to get an 8 X 10 color print of you to hang on my wall?

Kenny Croxdale

 

[.V.]

OP, yes they are and no they are not.

I'm on prescribed testosterone and have to get blood work 2x a year because of the LDL risk.

Actually, what's bad is the hormone problems that come from incorrect usage or usage at too young an age, the overconsumption of protein damaging the kidneys of some users, and the poor dietary habits of other users (incorrect fat/carb/protein ratios). These are what lead to AAS related health problems.

My suggestion, avoid them for now, reach your maximum potential, and when you reach the point that you've gone as far as you possibly can on your own natural testosterone....THEN consider them.

16 - 24 or 25 year olds? They are already on steroids...the best kind...testosterone made naturally by the body in very large amounts.

 

[bjg]

I am 50 Y/o and on TRT under Doctor supervision. I am hypogonadal and take Testosterone weekly. I started a serious fat loss program 2-26-11
I have acheived these results from SERIOUS diet and EXERCISE. see my journal.


http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww330/jagbender/weight loss/?action=view&current=a612980d.pbw

exactly keywords here : Doctor's supervision , EXERCISE

 

[Gazhole]

my point gazhole is that steroids are unnecessary risk and are not worth it , you can be patient and accomplish what you want to accomplish without them, it will last you for life and will not have to worry about it.
i am 50 now and as strong as fast as i was at 30 ...no problem ...this was done through hard work. All my workout buddies ranging from 20 years old to 40years old cannot keep up with me in the gym with their roids their ephedrine, their creatine and whatever they take and trust me most of them are in competition shape..like you they claim that they know it all ...i make fun of them (joking of course) in the gym everytime we challenge each other in push ups or pull ups or running and even in some lifting...no contest
i can stop lifting for a year and get back to where i am now in a month.
So what is this big deal if you get to lift 300 instead of 400 (with cheating) ???
so what if your arms are 17 inches instead of 18? since when 21 inch arms are better looking than 17 inch arms???????
what is the big deal?? are steroids and other stupidities ingested worth it? just for the fact that you have to remember taking your pills every day and so is revolting to me...it is like you can't live without your accessories. why all that???????? can't you do the same by just working your ass?
Ironically in my gym we are around 3 or 4 who never used steroids among maybe 50 ..and guess what? we probably are the strongest and most fit in the gym , we don't look the biggest by no means and not the best bodybulding shape at all, many of them can compete now in pro competitions , however as far as physical strength and health and stamina they just fall short...looks only..what a shame

For the record my gym is a natural gym. I don't take steroids and never will. You're preaching to the converted with me. What i'm saying is that you have an incredibly narrow minded view of steroids.

The guys in your gym who use them and are still piss weak are obviously a bunch of pussies and would be pussies if they used them or not. Similarly, if you took them you would be even better than you are now. They aren't magically going to make somebody who eats and trains badly into the next Mr. O. Its just unfortunate that a large majority of AAS users are morons who take them without knowing what they're doing, creating all these stereotypes and giving people who use them properly a bad rap.

Its not about the drugs themselves, its about the kind of people who end up using them. A lot are idiots, some aren't and those are the ones who get all the results with minimal health consequences.