ok then glad to hear that
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Steroids?
- Thread starter jason_
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ok then glad to hear that
kenny
point 1: doctors study more on the effects of steroids on the body than any of the pharmacologist you know.
pharmacologists study how steroids are made etc...
doctors use them to treat patients
point 2: thanx for the compliments about me being dumb....i do have some recommendation letters (i just keep them in my file) coming from top scientists and engineers i worked with, university chancelier, and my college transcripts, and of course not counting the patents i have... so i really really with all my respect don't think (nor that i care )that you are qualified enough to judge my level of intelligence (Mr. should we ban cars!!!!)
jagbender
Registered
ldyzluvdis06
Registered
Repped!
Okay. You can become an expert in mutivariate statistics and perhaps satiety research (my pet topic) and in a year, we can whip our dicks out and have a pissing contest. (I'll have to borrow somebody's dick, PM me to volunteer...) (NO DON'T!)built he will for sure laugh at me , no offense but he has no time for our bullshit on the forum, i can barely go out for dinner with him, but believe me he treats sports injuries and he probably has read more books and taken more courses than the national library
i can prove my point myself you can go ahead and read any articles you want, in biomedical signal processing , i 'll give you a year, then come and argue with me
The guy is a nerd. Excellent. He's my kind of people.
Don't bother asking though. I guarantee you, he would not know how to answer this question properly. I already know for sure YOU don't know how to answer the question.
Jagbender, was it easy to find a physician who was knowledgeable enough to give you proper medical treatment for your condition? Perhaps take a few minutes to describe the steps you had to take in order to procure adequate, appropriate medical treatment for the clearly defined hypogonadism for which you required medical care. How many months did it take, how many doctors did you need to see, and how did you finally find a physician who had the knowledge and expertise to treat your symptoms? How complicated is your treatment protocol, and is the dosing and injection frequency in line with published, peer-reviewed research for male hypogonadism?
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If it's a hormone-related illness (hypogonadism, hypothyroidism) you may well find better information and support online than you will through a physician.
I personally find this horrifying, but unfortunately, it appears to be the norm. Hypothyroidism for instance is often so poorly treated, there are networks of hypothyroid individuals who support each other and help each other find the few rare doctors who know how to adequately treat this condition. These are often the same doctors who understand how to treat hypogonadism also, which is how I came to understand the magnitude of the problem.
I personally find this horrifying, but unfortunately, it appears to be the norm. Hypothyroidism for instance is often so poorly treated, there are networks of hypothyroid individuals who support each other and help each other find the few rare doctors who know how to adequately treat this condition. These are often the same doctors who understand how to treat hypogonadism also, which is how I came to understand the magnitude of the problem.
jagbender
Registered
Built has a very good point. I have had Hypogonadism and hypothyroidism for a few years. I have seen all kinds or Doctors, Holistic MD's regular physicians, Endo's and Uroligists over the last few years. I fought with and left about 3 doctors because they refused to treat me because of Testing guidlines. Testosterone levels for most labs run "Normal" from 193-740 Free The problem is 740 may be normal for a 20 year olds and 193 normal for a 80 year old. So doctors don't like to treat hypogonasism or hypothyroidism if your blood work is within "normal" ranges.
The first Doc I went to gave me Androgel, Expensive 300.00 a month plus it is messy ineffective and dangerous to my daughter and wife. After 3 months and another blood test and complaing profusly that it was not working blood levels were still low. I asked for a "more effective" testosterone. This Doctor was probably the most easy guy to get along with and perscribed Test C for me. The problem is that he did not know crap. He dosed me @ 140 mg ever other week. Not really enough to correct the low T.
Built kept urging me to fid the right doctor. I kept searching and could only find Steroid mills set up like Doctors. Charging insane abounts of money for perscriptions that I would have to get filled @ their pharmacy which didn't take insurance the cost would have been 3-5 K a year.
I stumbled upon my current doctor and he immediatle changed my dosing to 130 mg per week and ordered blood work. he wants to get my Testosterone levels around 800 estradiol near 20 Lipid profiles and bloodpressure in check.
I had to teach myself about TRT I had to educate Doctors!
With the help of Built and pure determination a lot of Studying and frustration I am finally winning the ballt of the bulge @ 50 years old!
My current Doctor has told me he is impressed with how much I know and we debate my protocol. just recently me Estrdiol went too highh for the doctor (72) my previous results were 47 too high for me. After the labs showed my Estradiol @ 72 my doc perscribed me Anastrazole 1 mg three times a week. Talk about overkill!
I asked him if I could reduce the about because I was feeling crappy and I told him I was sensitive to some medicines. He agreed. I had bloodwork yesterday and a follow up next week. I guess we will see next week.
The first Doc I went to gave me Androgel, Expensive 300.00 a month plus it is messy ineffective and dangerous to my daughter and wife. After 3 months and another blood test and complaing profusly that it was not working blood levels were still low. I asked for a "more effective" testosterone. This Doctor was probably the most easy guy to get along with and perscribed Test C for me. The problem is that he did not know crap. He dosed me @ 140 mg ever other week. Not really enough to correct the low T.
Built kept urging me to fid the right doctor. I kept searching and could only find Steroid mills set up like Doctors. Charging insane abounts of money for perscriptions that I would have to get filled @ their pharmacy which didn't take insurance the cost would have been 3-5 K a year.
I stumbled upon my current doctor and he immediatle changed my dosing to 130 mg per week and ordered blood work. he wants to get my Testosterone levels around 800 estradiol near 20 Lipid profiles and bloodpressure in check.
I had to teach myself about TRT I had to educate Doctors!
With the help of Built and pure determination a lot of Studying and frustration I am finally winning the ballt of the bulge @ 50 years old!
My current Doctor has told me he is impressed with how much I know and we debate my protocol. just recently me Estrdiol went too highh for the doctor (72) my previous results were 47 too high for me. After the labs showed my Estradiol @ 72 my doc perscribed me Anastrazole 1 mg three times a week. Talk about overkill!
I asked him if I could reduce the about because I was feeling crappy and I told him I was sensitive to some medicines. He agreed. I had bloodwork yesterday and a follow up next week. I guess we will see next week.
jagbender
Registered
Getting proper treatment for sub clinical hypothyroidism was as much of a battle. BUT once you get diagnosed all you have to do is tell your next doctor I'm taking x amount of Armour and they keep on writing. I guess they figure someone else has made the diagnosis and his blood work is in "range" so all is good.
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jagbender
Registered
Your doctor MAY not be your best choice. And neither is a Forum.
You have to educate yourself and sometimes your Doctor.
The Doctors and health system, for the most part, in the USA is dirty.
Why do Doctors always perscribe the newest drugs? Bcause they are better that proven drugs. Are they safer? Definatly not cheaper!
Tested my the FDA? What a horror story there. Politicians and doctor are the big Pharma's pockets.
bjg your being an ass
jag i am not from the US neither are my doctors
as for being an ass i have to get something straight :
so steroids have been there for what 100 years?? and since then they are just sold in pharmacies they are a miracle cure for many diseases but nobody is supposed to use them, doctors even if they know by chance they just brush you off or ignore you because if they prescribe to you steroids and cure you the boogy man will come and take them. However, people on the forum read few articles on steroids written mostly by doctors (who don't know about steroids and are afraid to use them) and go on prescribing to each other this miracle cure and trying it on themselves,...and if anyone dies from it the argument is: it is not steroids he could have died from a car accident !
cmonn guys just get real!!!
and BUILT:
the medical stuff you read on the internet and that is allowing you to state that doctors don't know shit are for the most part bullshit or if they have any value are written by Doctors (who incidently don't know shit)
so go figure
next time i have a problem i go on the "internet" the god of all knowledge since the information descended to the web directly from god and ask : internet oh internet please save my ass!!!!
jagbender
Registered
not in texas anymore and not mexican , wish i was... nice place mexico i am pretty far from you right nowYou show you are located in Texas. U Mexican?
bjg - I am speaking from personal experience with my own thyroid hrt, and I asked jagbender to pipe in with his own, personal experience with male HRT.
He and I met on a low carb dieting board many years ago, and have networked with hundreds of others with similar hormonal conditions who have not been able to procure appropriate care.
I am currently working with my sister's private consulting physician to find appropriate care for her digestive and chronic pain issues which were in large part caused by five years of inappropriate care by mainstream medicine (I won't get into detail, but google narcotic bowel syndrome)
I am not citing articles here. I'm talking to actual human beings who will confirm with you what I have said - many doctors, including endocrinologists, do not understand hormonal therapy.
Anabolic steroids are, for the most part, no longer taught in med school and are not part of the lexicon of drugs prescribed by physicians to treat injury or disease - not because they are not safe, and not because they are not effective but rather, because they are too controversial.
Here's a recent example, a 2004 review of treatment options for patellofemoral pain syndrome.
Seems very few agents work well for knee pain - fortunately, we have nandrolone. Pharmacotherapy for patellofemora... [Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
Sadly, we cannot recommend it.
Is it safe? Compared to what - NSAIDS reduce pain but interfere with healing; cortisone reduces pain, but interferes with healing and can melt your bones; tricyclic antidepressants can mask pain but may also make you suicidal... on the other hand, nandrolone reduces the cause of pain while it makes you bigger, stronger, and perhaps a bit hairier. Your call.
Is nandrolone expensive? Nope. Actually, it's dirt cheap.
Does it work? Yep. Too bad it's too "controversial".
"There is only limited evidence for the effectiveness of NSAIDs for short term pain reduction in PFPS. The evidence for the effect of glycosaminoglycan polysulphate is conflicting and merits further investigation. The anabolic steroid nandrolone may be effective, but is too controversial for treatment of PFPS."
Nandrolone has been shown to reduce vertebral pain. Nandrolone decanoate: pharmacological propert... [Clin Rheumatol. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI
I know of no little old ladies in the US or Canada who receive this treatment.
There is simply no money to be made with these off-patent treatments which have already been demonstrated to be both safe and effective. Because there's no financial incentive, and because of the media-made controversy, their use in North America has all but disappeared for these purposes.
He and I met on a low carb dieting board many years ago, and have networked with hundreds of others with similar hormonal conditions who have not been able to procure appropriate care.
I am currently working with my sister's private consulting physician to find appropriate care for her digestive and chronic pain issues which were in large part caused by five years of inappropriate care by mainstream medicine (I won't get into detail, but google narcotic bowel syndrome)
I am not citing articles here. I'm talking to actual human beings who will confirm with you what I have said - many doctors, including endocrinologists, do not understand hormonal therapy.
Anabolic steroids are, for the most part, no longer taught in med school and are not part of the lexicon of drugs prescribed by physicians to treat injury or disease - not because they are not safe, and not because they are not effective but rather, because they are too controversial.
Here's a recent example, a 2004 review of treatment options for patellofemoral pain syndrome.
Seems very few agents work well for knee pain - fortunately, we have nandrolone. Pharmacotherapy for patellofemora... [Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
Sadly, we cannot recommend it.
Is it safe? Compared to what - NSAIDS reduce pain but interfere with healing; cortisone reduces pain, but interferes with healing and can melt your bones; tricyclic antidepressants can mask pain but may also make you suicidal... on the other hand, nandrolone reduces the cause of pain while it makes you bigger, stronger, and perhaps a bit hairier. Your call.
Is nandrolone expensive? Nope. Actually, it's dirt cheap.
Does it work? Yep. Too bad it's too "controversial".
"There is only limited evidence for the effectiveness of NSAIDs for short term pain reduction in PFPS. The evidence for the effect of glycosaminoglycan polysulphate is conflicting and merits further investigation. The anabolic steroid nandrolone may be effective, but is too controversial for treatment of PFPS."
Nandrolone has been shown to reduce vertebral pain. Nandrolone decanoate: pharmacological propert... [Clin Rheumatol. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI
I know of no little old ladies in the US or Canada who receive this treatment.
There is simply no money to be made with these off-patent treatments which have already been demonstrated to be both safe and effective. Because there's no financial incentive, and because of the media-made controversy, their use in North America has all but disappeared for these purposes.
stepaukas
Banned Member
like the old pf flyers shoes, drugs, epo, steroids or hgh or whatever you may take, make you jump higher and run faster, lift more and just make you better. your reaction time is faster hitting a ball, then it goes farther.. line up in the 100 meters. you trained all your life, are good at what you do, are in the ncaa championships, and the 5 that beat u are on the juice. aint fair. take your masking agent and you pass the drug pee test..
at mile 90 of a hard fast hilly windy 110 mile road race, i watch the guys on epo pull away.. i see it all the time.. thats why i never win a race. i hang in there but get beat. sure others are better, younger faster stronger, but some beat you cause of the drugs.. the masking agent is your friend....
it sucks, but i love the competition and dont mind coming in 2 minutes behind the cheaters in a 80 mile hard race..
personally, 10th place is way better than cheating to be first..
at mile 90 of a hard fast hilly windy 110 mile road race, i watch the guys on epo pull away.. i see it all the time.. thats why i never win a race. i hang in there but get beat. sure others are better, younger faster stronger, but some beat you cause of the drugs.. the masking agent is your friend....
it sucks, but i love the competition and dont mind coming in 2 minutes behind the cheaters in a 80 mile hard race..
personally, 10th place is way better than cheating to be first..
jagbender
Registered
Life's not fair. Get over it. People who say 'it's not fair' are really pathetic, to be perfectly honest. Just my opinion, but wouldn't it be better to train harder, diet harder, cycle harder than to sit and whine about life not being fair?
Or maybe, you're not that good. Maybe the other cyclists pull away because they did all of the above, while you sat around on a message board crying about it.
Is ingesting caffeine cheating? What about the PF flyers? What about gluco fuel? Is that cheating? What if you have a lighter bike making it easier for you to pull away? Did you put a special chemical inyour tires that give youan unfair advantage? Are your clothes lighter? Is that cheating? Does each bike weigh the same? Did you have exactly the same thing for breakfast that morning? Or more importantly, exactly the same thing for dinner the night before?
I'm not sure where this great debate started but it's really annoying. You have people who just hate steroids, for whatever reason, whether it's becuase of their own fears, they were picked on by some douch bag who was juiced, or their girlfriend broke up with them for a musclehead. So they hate on all the users, like bjg, who just can't get over it that people are going to do what they want to do. Not what bjg thinks is correct because he's friends with a doctor, or knows through his life experience that 'steroids are bad'. Enough already.
Quit hating, get to the root of your hatred for people who choose to dabble and find happiness. It will eat you alive if you don't. Really look at yourself. You are on a message board, about bodybuilding, about steroids, and you're going to change the World? S.T.F.U.
You could quote JAMA, Geraldo, and the Surgeon General and guess what? NO ONE CARES.
Now go work on that and I hope you find whatever is eating you up inside. Because you're really saying, 'I'm not good enough, I can't win, so I will hate on those who beat me.'
Since when Bodybuilding = steroids??? in what book you found that?
it is people like you who are totally useless without steroids that invented this...because you like it or not without your roids you probably hate yourself and the way you look.
It is people like you who ruined the reputation of sports like body building or any other sport.
sports = health, beauty, determination and accomplishment
steroids = cheating because we are lazy asses.
steroid philosophy is that the end results justifies the means: if the end result is good then the means to get there must be ok.
like if one gets wealthy then it is ok how he got there maybe stealing, maybe killing does not matter
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it is strange and funny how in another thread under "supplements" entiteled: FDA warns about the use of some drugs for loosing weight..and they list all the products to be avoided.
then i see that the responses from forum members: Thanks god i did not use any of these etc....
now my question is:
How come do you trust FDA in not using some supplements that could be harmful to your health ,, and then go on defending steroids use ..does FDA recommend steroid use??????????????
then i see that the responses from forum members: Thanks god i did not use any of these etc....
now my question is:
How come do you trust FDA in not using some supplements that could be harmful to your health ,, and then go on defending steroids use ..does FDA recommend steroid use??????????????
bjg, I tried to reach you as a person, and I tried online. I once felt the same way you do, and have slowly - grudgingly - come to realize I had been swayed by the same scare tactics once reserved for the evils of marijuana, so I naively believed there may be some way to approach you, one person-of-science to another.
Instead, you're letting emotion rather than logic drive your posts, and the style of your arguments relies upon hyperbole and straw-men. You're so ensconced in your position, you give the appearance of having no interest in the facts. Believe it or not - and it shames me to say it - but I've been there. I understand.
It took me YEARS of reading to come to the position I now hold. The cognitive dissonance simply became too heavy to bear, and grudgingly, I found myself with no other choice but to accept the facts - even though I really didn't want to.
I wish you success in your physique goals.
Instead, you're letting emotion rather than logic drive your posts, and the style of your arguments relies upon hyperbole and straw-men. You're so ensconced in your position, you give the appearance of having no interest in the facts. Believe it or not - and it shames me to say it - but I've been there. I understand.
It took me YEARS of reading to come to the position I now hold. The cognitive dissonance simply became too heavy to bear, and grudgingly, I found myself with no other choice but to accept the facts - even though I really didn't want to.
I wish you success in your physique goals.
built
i already reached my goals, bodybuilding was and is for me a long life passion and it helped me in other sports where i competed in many events. now i am just working out and having fun in the gym trying to be healthy. I still sometimes compete in track and field events that my old high school organizes for former students and it pleases me to see that i am still as good as new!
so for now no real goals as far as looks are concerned and no trying to look like anything , i just do it by the day and for some strange reason i feel more motivated than ever and since i am enjoying my workouts it seems that i am getting good results and it is working for me.
thank you for your wish i wish the same for you.
i already reached my goals, bodybuilding was and is for me a long life passion and it helped me in other sports where i competed in many events. now i am just working out and having fun in the gym trying to be healthy. I still sometimes compete in track and field events that my old high school organizes for former students and it pleases me to see that i am still as good as new!
so for now no real goals as far as looks are concerned and no trying to look like anything , i just do it by the day and for some strange reason i feel more motivated than ever and since i am enjoying my workouts it seems that i am getting good results and it is working for me.
thank you for your wish i wish the same for you.
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at your age test levels are already soaring.. no need for aas, as everyone has said,, train from now till your 25 and learn to do it all naturally get your nutrition down and learn your body,, youll be amazed with the gains u can naturally get.. when your 25 if u still want to hit up some gear,,, but till then steer clear of them you could really screw up your natural hormones
Pika
Registered
This ^^
