Gun ownership in the US.

[Burner02]

What kind of round do you load in that 9mm katt? It'll make a difference ...

the 9mm bear killer!

I think the only round a 9mm that could put down a bear would be those banned/illegal 'cop killer' rounds?

 

[BoneCrusher]

the 9mm bear killer!

I think the only round a 9mm that could put down a bear would be those banned/illegal 'cop killer' rounds?

Lol ... no but a hollow point will do more damage than a FMJ. 9mm do suck for bears, but the right choice of ammo would help.

 

[iMan323]

Lol ... no but a hollow point will do more damage than a FMJ. 9mm do suck for bears, but the right choice of ammo would help.

Shooting a FMJ round at a bear is like poking him with a sewing needle.
Shooting him with a hollow-point is like punching him in the shoulder if you consider the thickness of the hide and and the underlying layer of fat plus the relatively slow velocity of the round.

FMJ + a 15 round extended clip is the answer..

but seriously, run for cover..

 

[maniclion]

I say the 9mm is perfect for her, a larger caliber and she probably would waste too much time trying to get it back on target after the recoil. I think a person should carry whatever they can pop off the most rounds accurately in the shortest time would make the difference.

 

[BoneCrusher]

The FBI has done some good balistic research on 9mm ammo. The feds have decided on Federal Hydra-Shok as the round of choice for their guys. It's a JHP that expands and does more damage as it passes through organs. It's also not as likely to pass through the intended target and hit something like the neighbor's dog or worse ... the neighbor.

Is a 9mm good for bears? Lol ... not so much. If it is the weapon of choice OR opportunity though, then JHP Federal Hydra-Shok is the way to go.

 

[BoneCrusher]

I think a person should carry whatever they can pop off the most rounds accurately in the shortest time would make the difference.

absolutely. With lots of plinking time for good overall comfort in that time of need.

 

[iMan323]

The FBI has done some good balistic research on 9mm ammo. The feds have decided on Federal Hydra-Shok as the round of choice for their guys. It's a JHP that expands and does more damage as it passes through organs. QUOTE]

They use ballistic gel that has somewhat the same consistency as human flesh. They fire these rounds into pieces of gel somewhat similar in size and shape to a human torso. The thing is that bears don't resemble humans. It would never get to the internal organs in the first place...Is a hollow-point round better than a fmj round at stopping humans with no body armor? absolutely...shooting at bears...i'd say no

Is a 9mm good for bears? Lol ... not so much. If it is the weapon of choice OR opportunity though, then JHP Federal Hydra-Shok is the way to go.

I will agree with you here.

 

[BoneCrusher]

The FBI has done some good balistic research on 9mm ammo. The feds have decided on Federal Hydra-Shok as the round of choice for their guys. It's a JHP that expands and does more damage as it passes through organs. QUOTE]

They use ballistic gel that has somewhat the same consistency as human flesh. They fire these rounds into pieces of gel somewhat similar in size and shape to a human torso. The thing is that bears don't resemble humans. It would never get to the internal organs in the first place...Is a hollow-point round better than a fmj round at stopping humans with no body armor? absolutely...shooting at bears...i'd say no




I will agree with you here.

FBI used that test you described compiled with results from firefights in the streets. Looking over dead bodies where the Federal Hydra-Shok JHP was used vs other rounds helped to set the JHP standard more than anything else.

 

[PreMier]

Just get a gun like mine.. I have no question it would stop a bear haha

 

[maniclion]

absolutely. With lots of plinking time for good overall comfort in that time of need.

Well even in Texas I never took a walk through the woods without my 22 pistol and 410 Shotgun with slugs and all I had to worry about were small wild pigs, coyote's and snakes, so I probably wouldn't be in bear country with anything less than what I thought would drop a dangerous animal quickly...

But reading some sites it seems that a 9mm or a 44 are just based on luck of where they hit, there are stories of a 9mm breaking a shoulder and stories of 44's being unloaded.....

 

[clemson357]

As some of you already know, i'm coming to the good old U.S.of A. to pursue a Ph.D after my current degree in sunny Australia.
I am suure this is probably going to sound a little naive, but here in Australia the only people who carry guns besides the military and police, are ex boyfriends and his friends that one might no longer have contact with.
So, I'm wondering how many of you do own guns and how many of you believe that you wouldn't feel safe without one.

I hope this isn't a taboo subject and I will be happy to hear your input . If you want to comment and on your feelings about that in your particular state, that would also be cool to hear about from you.

Blooming tianshi lotus.

Most people don't know, however, that violent crime skyrocketed after Australia passed that law. During the same time period, the United States experienced a steady and significant decline in violent crime, despite the fact that 38 states started letting people carry guns in public.


I own a gun. I go without it on a daily basis, and I still fairly safe, but then again I am a larger-than-average man who doesn't frequent dangerous locations. If I were a woman who had to drive through some bad area to get to work or something, I might feel differently.

Depending on what state you are studying in, you may have trouble getting a gun, if thats why you started the thread.

 

[danzik17]

My rationale for being pro-gun has nothing to do with hunting, or even crime - I believe in gun ownership as a deterrent to the government. A government will think twice about persecuting and harassing its own citizens [violently] when it knows that those citizens are likely packing a gun.

 

[the other half]

i must apologize, katt has mistaken my ruger p97dc .45 cal for what she believed was a 9mm(she was probalby thinking of something else that is close to 9mm)lol. we do carry it all summer when we go to the mountians, wether it be to hiking, pick huckleberries, or going hunting in the fall. thank god i dont know for a fact that it will kill a bear, i hope i never have to get to that point.
but we also carry pepper spray, which in tests is proven to be the best defense agianst bears, although only at close range, if that doesnt stop them, then u pull the pistol and start praying.

 

[BoneCrusher]

i must apologize, katt has mistaken my ruger p97dc .45 cal for what she believed was a 9mm(she was probalby thinking of something else that is close to 9mm)lol. we do carry it all summer when we go to the mountians, wether it be to hiking, pick huckleberries, or going hunting in the fall. thank god i dont know for a fact that it will kill a bear, i hope i never have to get to that point.
but we also carry pepper spray, which in tests is proven to be the best defense agianst bears, although only at close range, if that doesnt stop them, then u pull the pistol and start praying.

How much range time have you two put in with it? Even shooting cans out in the woods somewhere is a blast. Lol ... it gets a little high dollar on a .45 though. You can pick up a smaller cal for throwing mass quantities of shot down range, and then run a few rounds through that .45 for a tune up. Easier on the wallet and the hands for a female, or even a man for that matter.

 

[the other half]

yes that is the cheaper way, most definitely. not to mention alot easier on the ears. even with ear muffs on, it is still a really sharp noise.
we dont get out shooting as much as we should or need to, but when we do go its always fun, especially with the big game rifles. i have a browning model 1885 single shot in 7mm, and katt has a remington 308, great gun for her to use on elk and deer.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Most people don't know, however, that violent crime skyrocketed after Australia passed that law. During the same time period, the United States experienced a steady and significant decline in violent crime, despite the fact that 38 states started letting people carry guns in public.


I own a gun. I go without it on a daily basis, and I still fairly safe, but then again I am a larger-than-average man who doesn't frequent dangerous locations. If I were a woman who had to drive through some bad area to get to work or something, I might feel differently.

Depending on what state you are studying in, you may have trouble getting a gun, if thats why you started the thread.

To be honest, I'm a martial artist. I've already travelled to various countries in the world alone and walked dark streets in easy to hide in blistering snow blizzarded night darkness and in shadey areas where I dont know where I am or even speak the language;.. and i'm quite small and fml so that was alot of fun. Somenights in certain places and long train rides I just didn't sleep at all.. I'm okay with defending myself for my life and immediate safety if i have to and i have done that in more than one or two real time situations, but i guess I just wanted to guage what i might be in for. Never actually tested those long and close range gun defense skills so I can't even say that i'm 100% positive that i'd be good enough to pull it off in real life. Currently i'm unarmed and expect to visit many in states in The States for various 2 week internships for my degree over there, but no decision to carry one so far. I was hoping to ask and find it unneccessary without restricting my movement. Those bears and wolves are sounding a little bit fun and slightly tricky though.. i think i might read up American forrest creatures

Maybe i could just .. outrun them

 

[the other half]

if any situations arise, just remember that if u get attacked by a bear get into a fetal position and play dead, if u get attacked by a pack of wolves-well, u r just really screwed.

 

[bio-chem]

To be honest, I'm a martial artist. I've already travelled to various countries in the world alone and walked dark streets in easy to hide in blistering snow blizzarded night darkness and in shadey areas where I dont know where I am or even speak the language;.. and i'm quite small and fml so that was alot of fun. Somenights in certain places and long train rides I just didn't sleep at all.. I'm okay with defending myself for my life and immediate safety if i have to and i have done that in more than one or two real time situations, but i guess I just wanted to guage what i might be in for. Never actually tested those long and close range gun defense skills so I can't even say that i'm 100% positive that i'd be good enough to pull it off in real life. Currently i'm unarmed and expect to visit many in states in The States for various 2 week internships for my degree over there, but no decision to carry one so far. I was hoping to ask and find it unneccessary without restricting my movement. Those bears and wolves are sounding a little bit fun and slightly tricky though.. i think i might read up American forrest creatures

Maybe i could just .. outrun them

i think the rules on a non US citizen might be a little tougher for you to purchase and carry over here even if you wanted to. especially traveling from state to state as each has their own gun-carry laws. i wouldnt expect you to be spending much time in bear or wolf country so i wouldnt worry about it too much. besides your from australia, you have wicked venomous bugs, spiders, snakes and other shit like that over there. we have the black widow. hell youll be fine

 

[Blooming Lotus]

yeh. I'm fairly game to be optimistic at this stage . I'm also just about to pick up my new security guard license here in Aus to see me through for some extra money because of the hrs i can work it around uni atm, and I 'm fairly sure that if I need to work doing that over there, which isn't reeally the plan at all but a good emergency contingency if i need one so for money transport trucks if thaat 's something I might take, then I'll probably need to do an international cross component and will likely be licensed to carry over there if i wanted. I'm just guessing at this stage, but thanks everyone anyway.


good discussion .
Blooming tianshi lotus.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

In light of my last post, just to clear shaolin's name, i want to revoke my intention. We dont do guns to be honest and now that i think about it, if the security guard and personal protection industry involves guns, then we dont want the job. We doo do protection, but not like that.
peace.

 

[iMan323]

My rationale for being pro-gun has nothing to do with hunting, or even crime - I believe in gun ownership as a deterrent to the government. A government will think twice about persecuting and harassing its own citizens [violently] when it knows that those citizens are likely packing a gun.

Haha, that's a load of BS. How the fuck is a gun going to help you when there's a warrant for your arrest?

 

[Blooming Lotus]

After hurricane Katrina, didn't they employ military control and talk about disarming the rest of you door to door?

 

[AKIRA]

My rationale for being pro-gun has nothing to do with hunting, or even crime - I believe in gun ownership as a deterrent to the government. A government will think twice about persecuting and harassing its own citizens [violently] when it knows that those citizens are likely packing a gun.

Intersting excuse. I like it!

 

[danzik17]

Haha, that's a load of BS. How the fuck is a gun going to help you when there's a warrant for your arrest?

For the individual? You're right, it won't do anything. But how about when/if Bush or some other quasi-dictator decides to implement martial law? Granted our society today wouldn't have the stones to stand up to him, but in the society the forefathers envisioned, the American people would rise up against the government and re-take control of the country from the corrupt.

Unfortunately, people have become so complacent and the government so pervasive that no one would do a damn thing to resist, and our country would be lost.

These also happen to be the reasons I will never, ever serve in our military, even if a draft is called. I'm willing to fight for the principles of the United States of America, but unfortunately that country doesn't exist anymore except in name. I won't sacrifice myself for anything less than what America should have been.

 

[bio-chem]

Haha, that's a load of BS. How the fuck is a gun going to help you when there's a warrant for your arrest?

the truth is, its the real reason behind the second ammendment. remember at the time of the nations founding a well regulated militia was not the national guard. it was the massachusetts minute men who grabbed their own guns off the mantle piece. if a dictator wants to control his populace the first thing he does is control information to the populace and take away their ability to depose him. sounds like the 1st and 2nd amendments to me

 

[bio-chem]

For the individual? You're right, it won't do anything. But how about when/if Bush or some other quasi-dictator decides to implement martial law? Granted our society today wouldn't have the stones to stand up to him, but in the society the forefathers envisioned, the American people would rise up against the government and re-take control of the country from the corrupt.

Unfortunately, people have become so complacent and the government so pervasive that no one would do a damn thing to resist, and our country would be lost.

These also happen to be the reasons I will never, ever serve in our military, even if a draft is called. I'm willing to fight for the principles of the United States of America, but unfortunately that country doesn't exist anymore except in name. I won't sacrifice myself for anything less than what America should have been.

 

[danzik17]

Not sure how you can give that a thumbs down considering your previous post that seems to be in agreement. Unless you're talking about my refusal to serve in our military.

 

[Little Wing]

Yeah but you're a different kind of girl katt. How many women have even fired a gun let alone own one and know how to use it?

i like guns and grew up target practicing. Tesla is a very good shot and hunts and shoots skeet with her grandfather. however, i have a 10 yr old son, Tyler, that lets his curiosity get the best of him so until he's older and wiser i won't have guns in the house.

 

[bio-chem]

Not sure how you can give that a thumbs down considering your previous post that seems to be in agreement. Unless you're talking about my refusal to serve in our military.

outside of your first sentence about a dictator using martial law, which is the reason behind the 2nd amendment. i disagree with your assesment of the US

 

[Will Brink]

My buddy Seb's popular blog/site on the subject of being a liberal gun owner.

This is worth a read:

Liberals Need Not Fear the Right to Bear Arms
Michael Helmeste
Published Thursday, June 7, 2007
Issue 137 / Volume 87

I???m a liberal. My voting record is largely Green Party and Democrat. I???m a strong environmentalist - I respect and treat all life equally. I think equal opportunity is a good concept, and I view our international policy with distaste.

I???m also a gun collector and strong proponent of the Second Amendment.

People have been misled to think that guns are a Republican thing. That???s unfortunate. Gun ownership is the most liberal thing I can imagine. It???s about keeping power in the hands of the people instead of being exclusively the tools of government and the rich. It???s about equality, letting an old woman defend herself as well as a bodybuilder. It???s about being able to protect not only the people that are important to us but the rest of our freedoms as well.

In an effort to garner votes, the Democrats have used guns as a scapegoat like the Republicans have used terror. They???ve created boogymen like ???assault weapons??? to convince constituents something is being done about the fundamentally human problem of violence. By banning guns, Democrats want you to believe something is being done to bring down crime. Do you know the definition of assault weapon? It???s not a machine gun. It???s a gun that has features like a grip that protrudes from the bottom or a bayonet lug. When???s the last time anyone was bayoneted? Another sensationalized item is hollow point ammo - bullets that flatten when they hit something. The police switched to hollow points because the alternative, round bullets, had a tendency to go straight through objects, ricochet and they also require a greater number of shots to stop attackers.

Guns aren???t even the most damaging method of killing. In the Happy Land Fire, a man killed 87 people with one dollar???s worth of gas. The record number of deaths at a school is held by a person with a bomb, not a gun. A nut job with a car in a crowded area can do more damage than a man with a bag full of guns. Where???s our gas licensing? Let???s ban cars. Americans understand cars; not many understand guns because they???re getting their information from a media that loves to sensationalize. You hear about one psychopath killer, but not about the thousands of people who were saved from being murdered or raped.

Guns are the best tools we as citizens have for defense. Not only has the Supreme Court ruled that police have no obligation to protect individuals, but it???s a physical impossibility for police to be there at all times. We shouldn???t rely on others for self-defense.

Guns also protect our freedoms. They ensure that, if necessary, the people have means to offer resistance to rogue authority. It wasn???t long ago that rogue police officers, after illegally disarming the citizenry, took advantage of Hurricane Katrina to steal much-needed food and supplies. A liberal should know that authority figures commit crimes every day. If we take physical power away from the people, what???s left to balance against governmental abuse? If we take guns away from the people, only criminals and the government will have them.

Banning guns to reduce violence is like playing Whac-A-Mole, remove one weapon and another will pop up. People have one less way to hurt each other out of billions. Unfortunately the unique benefits guns provide are gone, along with the lack of shootings, and there???s no replacing them.

It???s a citizen???s duty to vote with an informed understanding. Next time you see a gun control bill, don???t agree because it looks like common sense. Take the time to educate yourself on the terms, try substituting ???gun??? for ???car??? to remove an emotional bias. Place Second Amendment infringements in the context of better understood ones. Should we ban Ferraris because they???re too fast for normal citizens, or revolutionary texts because they???re too powerful? Go to a range and try out a gun. How could someone who???s never shot a gun dictate what types are and aren???t allowed?

Bearing arms is a constitutional right. It???s an empowerment of the citizenry that, like free speech, must be preserved for the most dire circumstances, lest we find it gone when we most need it. Let???s not define a freedom by its abuse, and let???s not give it up just because we don???t understand it.

Michael Helmeste is a UCSB staff member.