Guns vs. Government - the discussion of violence in the U.S. and abroad

[LAM]

in that case either a .40 or .45. don't need the high capacity of a 9mm when you have increased stopping power of the higher calibers

if you are also a fan of knives I suggest the CKRT Hissatsu folder.

 

[bio-chem]

I think plenty of shootings that have occured by civilians could have been avoided if they had not had access to a gun.

Sometimes people get so angry that they lose their mind for a bit.

And in these cases, if they had not had access to a gun, maybe they would have had a chance to cool down and not commited a murder.

or more likely they would have used a knife, club, or some other implement. It's true the majority of crimes are crimes of passion. heat of the moment type stuff. but removing one type of weapon doesn't mean that they will not reach for another

 

[bio-chem]

first where did I ever say the problem was with CCW holders. I said armed citizens armed in public, plenty of people carry w/o a CCW.

Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries
Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries

that link doesn't speak at all to the topic at hand. show me where armed citizens in public are causing problems? I'm not talking about gangbangers, and drug dealers here. I'm talking about everyday joes carrying guns in public that are making bad situations worse because they were armed.

 

[LAM]

that link doesn't speak at all to the topic at hand. show me where armed citizens in public are causing problems? I'm not talking about gangbangers, and drug dealers here. I'm talking about everyday joes carrying guns in public that are making bad situations worse because they were armed.

I didn't say there was a problem but there would be if this was allowed on a masses scale. common sense tells us this would not be an improvement, this is what LE is for to react to crimes not civilian vigilante's on the lookout to shoot somebody. I guess it would be better to allow another problem to be created so it can be solved?

 

[bio-chem]

I didn't say there was a problem but there would be if this was allowed on a masses scale. common sense tells us this would not be an improvement, this is what LE is for to react to crimes not civilian vigilante's on the lookout to shoot somebody. I guess it would be better to allow another problem to be created so it can be solved?

allowed on a mass scale? there are currently 700k CCW holders in the state of Florida alone. is that enough of a mass scale trial run for you?

Bahahhahahhahah. scare tactics aren't going to work in this argument. armed civilians aren't "vigilante's on the lookout to shoot somebody" we have enough armed law abiding civilians to know that this is a completely false stereotype. suggesting it shows an attempt at a red herring because of a lack of understanding of the issue. armed civilians aren't creating a problem as shown by the fact that the masses of our armed law abiding civilians are walking around daily without looking for "somebody to shoot" I've yet to see you show an example of an armed civilian creating a problem. care to try again?

you are right LE reacts to crimes. being armed during an encounter can prevent one. I for one want the option of protecting myself and my family in the time it takes LE to show up.

 

[bio-chem]

vermont, alaska, arizona, and wyoming allow unrestricted concealed carry to their citizens. No permit is required for their citizens to legally carry concealed in these states. i don't seem to read about armed vigilante's in these states going around looking for people to shoot. I wonder why?

 

[LAM]

Law Enforcement and Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders

http://www.vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf

 

[bio-chem]

Law Enforcement and Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders

http://www.vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf

Those seem to be very low numbers to me. those statistics back up the safety of concealed carry to me

 

[irish_2003]

gun laws have NOTHING to do with limiting gun crime and EVERYTHING to do with no political uprising by the people.....that's the entire reason for the 2nd amendment when it was written...was to protect the people from the government (an injuns)

 

[LAM]

Those seem to be very low numbers to me. those statistics back up the safety of concealed carry to me

National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Preliminary 2011 Fatality Statistics

http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/facts/ccw-crimes-misdeeds.pdf

National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Causes of Law Enforcement Deaths

National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Preliminary 2011 Fatality Statistics

I found a much easier solution than carrying even though I have a CCW, I just don't go to shitty places or areas that are high in crime.

In a country that has double the rate of bi-polar disorders (at 4.4% of the pop) of any other country (of which only 50% are under treatment) and a shrinking economy that is going down the crapper and a totally fucked up political system. I couldn't think of a much worst idea than getting more firearms out on the streets.

 

[troubador]

Sometimes I wonder if the Brady campaign does their cause more harm than good. I mean you're really going to waste time compiling a list of snippets about CCW holders involved in crimes? Only people on board with the agenda won't realize how unimportant that is. Here are some actual statistics (not a list of scary stories).

Concealed Weapon Summary Report - Division of Licensing, FDACS
Way less than 1% of CCW holders in Florida committed a crime involving a gun.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2009.pdf

Texas DPS - CHL Conviction Rates Reports

0% Manslaughter and .2% of murders that year in TX.

 

[LAM]

did you even look at the links because only 1 is from brady the rest are from the national law enforcement memorial fund.

you honest believe that arming more people in a large violent population with a growing mental health problem is going to make things "better"? seriously...

 

[Zaphod]

Guns aren't the problem. Neither is access to those guns. People are the problem. Until you legislate people away there will always be people murdering other people. Whether it be with guns or cricket bats or mouse cords. Also criminals will always be able to get guns. That's something people can't quite seem to grasp.

When I go on my own murderous rampage I'm going to kill more than twenty people with a spatula. Or better yet, a toaster oven. See if I can't get a group to go after banning toaster ovens.

When you are seconds away from a life or death situation the cops are always just minutes away.

 

[troubador]

did you even look at the links because only 1 is from brady the rest are from the national law enforcement memorial fund.

Yes, none of them address CCW holders except for the Brady one which neglects (of course) to mention how those numbers stack up against the total population. Everyone knows LE die from shootings.

you honest believe that arming more people in a large violent population with a growing mental health problem is going to make things "better"? seriously...

I don't know why we are even having the debate. There are much more dangerous things that should be banned way before guns are up for consideration. You work on getting 'common sense pool legislation' enacted then we'll talk about guns.

"In a given year, there is one drowning of a child for every 11,000 residential pools in the United States. (In a country with 6 million pools, this means that roughly 550 children under the age of ten drown each year.) Meanwhile, there is 1 child killed by a gun for every 1 million-plus guns. (In a country with an estimated 200 million guns, this means that roughly 175 children under ten die each year from guns.) The likelihood of death by pool (1 in 11,000) versus death by gun (1 in 1 million-plus) isn???t even close:"

Chapter 5 « Freakonomics and SuperFreakonomics

 

[DOMS]

Anyone that thinks that they Americans should be deprived of their guns while sharing a nearly 2000 mile long border with Mexico--especially since it's a sieve--is a moron.

End of fucking story.

 

[ALBOB]

I'm considering getting a handgun soon...what would you recommend for a first timer?
I have shot .22's, 9mm, revolvers...
thought they were all fun.
owned a 20 gauge shotgun when i was younger

But that's the extent of my experience with real guns.

I want one thats medium-small and light weight but also fun to shoot (practice targets).

4" .357 Magnum revolver. I'm partial to Rugers myself but Smith & Wesson makes some fine guns also. Ultimate in reliability. Easily concealed. Very easy to learn to shoot.

Practice and/or plink with mild .38 Special loads and carry full power magnums when it's for real.

 

[robbiek426]

Constitutional rights vs. Your opinion.

Constitution wins. Most guns that are used to commit crimes are NOT registered and are usually owned by felons who have them illegally to begin with.

Taking guns and the right to carry guns away from decent people is a bad idea. You cannot obtain a CCW if you have a felony on your record. So why is it bad to let people who are law abiding citizens purchase and carry firearms?

Really give me a good point with an unbiased report and I may change my position.

 

[ALBOB]

Really give me a good point with an unbiased report and I may change my position.

Good luck finding THAT from any anti-gunners.

 

[bio-chem]

did you even look at the links because only 1 is from brady the rest are from the national law enforcement memorial fund.

you honest believe that arming more people in a large violent population with a growing mental health problem is going to make things "better"? seriously...

yes. yes i do

 

[bio-chem]

Anyone that thinks that they Americans should be deprived of their guns while sharing a nearly 2000 mile long border with Mexico--especially since it's a sieve--is a moron.

End of fucking story.

this

 

[dogsoldier]

Take a look at states (or cities) that allow CCW and states that don't. Last time I checked (and was told in class) was that the crime rate was much higher in states that made it impossible to have a CCW or to even own a gun. Think about it, if your in a state where anyone without a record and whos sane can get a weapons permit, your going to think twice before doing something stupid. That's just one example.

I agree with your premise, but the high crime stuff is bullshit. Gun control is racism, plain and simple. The states that do not have a CCW or personal ownership have high populations of blacks and other minorities. The white liberal power structure can't have all those minorities running around with guns.

 

[robbiek426]

I agree with your premise, but the high crime stuff is bullshit. Gun control is racism, plain and simple. The states that do not have a CCW or personal ownership have high populations of blacks and other minorities. The white liberal power structure can't have all those minorities running around with guns.

I agree with your stance on gun control but it is not racism.

Liberals dont want anyone to have guns. The reason personal ownership laws are higher in states with minority population??????? Because over 70% of minorities vote for democrats at the state and national level.

 

[Zaphod]

Yes, none of them address CCW holders except for the Brady one which neglects (of course) to mention how those numbers stack up against the total population. Everyone knows LE die from shootings.



I don't know why we are even having the debate. There are much more dangerous things that should be banned way before guns are up for consideration. You work on getting 'common sense pool legislation' enacted then we'll talk about guns.

"In a given year, there is one drowning of a child for every 11,000 residential pools in the United States. (In a country with 6 million pools, this means that roughly 550 children under the age of ten drown each year.) Meanwhile, there is 1 child killed by a gun for every 1 million-plus guns. (In a country with an estimated 200 million guns, this means that roughly 175 children under ten die each year from guns.) The likelihood of death by pool (1 in 11,000) versus death by gun (1 in 1 million-plus) isn???t even close:"

Chapter 5 « Freakonomics and SuperFreakonomics

But everybody likes to go swimming. So pools can't be bad much less hazardous.

I check in with my guns every day and so far none of them have gone out and killed someone while I've been at work.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

I check in with my guns every day and so far none of them have gone out and killed someone while I've been at work.

 

[troubador]

But everybody likes to go swimming. So pools can't be bad much less hazardous.

And they're not black and scary; which is why things like the 'Assault Weapons Ban' get passed when really they're nothing more than a Scary Weapons Ban.

Liberals dont want anyone to have guns.

The 'liberal' leaders don't want the herd to have guns. Just ask Rosie O'Donnell.

YouTube Video

 

[troubador]

Actually, in all seriousness I believe people are more afraid of guns than say cars, pools or choking because of the herd mentality. They can accept that accidents happen but they are terrified of the idea that someone out there has the power(over them) to take their life. The realization that they are much more likely to drown or something is outweighed by the fear of power inequality.

 

[Killermonkey]

Lam, take your liberal commi gun hating ass out of my fucking thread. This is for gun lovers only!

 

[dogsoldier]

I agree with your stance on gun control but it is not racism.

Liberals dont want anyone to have guns. The reason personal ownership laws are higher in states with minority population??????? Because over 70% of minorities vote for democrats at the state and national level.

If you read about the history of gun control in America you will change you opinion. The roots of gun control are deeply founded in racism. Remember, racism does not necessarily mean against one of another color. The elites do not want the peasants armed, plain and simple.

Minorities vote for the left because they have had the "victim" mentality beat into them forever. The nanny state of the democrats is the highest form of racism. "You are too stupid to think for yourself so here is some goodies to vote for us".

 

[Zaphod]

I've got Remington Golden Sabres in my Ruger 9mm. All sixteen are still there, so my gun hasn't killed anyone today.

 

[DOMS]

Remember, racism does not necessarily mean against one of another color. The elites do not want the peasants armed, plain and simple.

That's classism, not racism.