Mormons face flak for backing Prop. 8

[DOMS]

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[Built]

How Would Same-Sex Marriage Affect Society?

Possible restrictions on religious freedom are not the only societal implications of legalizing same-sex marriage. Perhaps the most common argument that proponents of same-sex marriage make is that it is essentially harmless and will not affect the institution of traditional heterosexual marriage in any way. ⦣8364;?????It won⦣8364;â???¢t affect you, so why should you care?⦣8364;â???¢ is the common refrain. While it may be true that allowing single-sex unions will not immediately and directly affect all existing marriages, the real question is how it will affect society as a whole over time, including the rising generation and future generations. The experience of the few European countries that already have legalized same-sex marriage suggests that any dilution of the traditional definition of marriage will further erode the already weakened stability of marriages and family generally..

I'm curious - how has this been demonstrated?

Adopting same-sex marriage compromises the traditional concept of marriage, with harmful consequences for society.

It is not at all clear how compromising the traditional concept of marriage will result in harmful consequences for society. Traditional marriage has meant many things over the years: financial and political alignment of families, survival of both partners in frontier lands, plural marriage - for example, among LDS here in North America, in the Middle-East to this day, even among the Inuit. Traditions change to suit a changing social environment. How is this any different?

Aside from the very serious consequence of undermining and diluting the sacred nature of marriage between a man and a woman, .

Which does not sound at all serious to me.

there are many practical implications in the sphere of public policy that will be of deep concern to parents and society as a whole. These are critical to understanding the seriousness of the overall issue of same-sex marriage.

When a man and a woman marry with the intention of forming a new family, their success in that endeavour depends on their willingness to renounce the single-minded pursuit of self-fulfillment and to sacrifice their time and means to the nurturing and rearing of their children. Marriage is fundamentally an unselfish act: legally protected because only a male and female together can create new life, and because the rearing of children requires a life-long commitment, which marriage is intended to provide..

My parents divorced. Lots of people do. Most of us somehow still turn out okay.

Societal recognition of same-sex marriage cannot be justified simply on the grounds that it provides self-fulfillment to its partners, for it is not the purpose of government to provide legal protection to every possible way in which individuals may pursue fulfillment. By definition, all same-sex unions are infertile, and two individuals of the same gender, whatever their affections, can never form a marriage devoted to raising their own mutual offspring..

My husband and I can't have children either. Should we have decided it was immoral to marry because of this impossibility?

It is true that some same-sex couples will obtain guardianship over children ⦣8364;â?????through prior heterosexual relationships, through adoption in the states where this is permitted, or by artificial insemination. Despite that, the all-important question of public policy must be: what environment is best for the child and for the rising generation? Traditional marriage provides a solid and well-established social identity to children. It increases the likelihood that they will be able to form a clear gender identity, with sexuality closely linked to both love and procreation. .

Is this bolded part important? My husband and I will need to know this within a few hours. We have sex a LOT, and we absolutely know we cannot have children. For us, sexuality has exactly NOTHING to do with procreation.

Shit. We're undermining the sanctity of marriage by being monogamous! Wait until I tell hubby the only way we can avoid this is to fuck around! ONE of us will be pleased!

By contrast, the legalization of same-sex marriage likely will erode the social identity, gender development, and moral character of children. Is it really wise for society to pursue such a radical experiment without taking into account its long-term consequences for children?
.

My dad was a violent alcoholic. I would have done better if mom had shacked up with a girlfriend, believe me.

As just one example of how children will be adversely affected, the establishment of same-sex marriage as a civil right will inevitably require mandatory changes in school curricula. When the state says that same-sex unions are equivalent to heterosexual marriages, the curriculum of public schools will have to support this claim. Beginning with elementary school, children will be taught that marriage can be defined as a relation between any two adults and that consensual sexual relations are morally neutral..

Thank GOD!

Classroom instruction on sex education in secondary schools can be expected to equate homosexual intimacy with heterosexual relations. .

Yes!

These developments will create serious clashes between the agenda of the secular school system and the right of parents to teach their children traditional standards of morality.
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They're already there. That's why so many Fundamentalists elect to home-school.

Finally, throughout history the family has served as an essential bulwark of individual liberty. The walls of a home provide a defense against detrimental social influences and the sometimes overreaching powers of government..

Interesting choice of wordsâ???¦

In the absence of abuse or neglect, government does not have the right to intervene in the rearing and moral education of children in the home. Strong families are thus vital for political freedom. But when governments presume to redefine the nature of marriage, issuing regulations to ensure public acceptance of non-traditional unions, they have moved a step closer to intervening in the sacred sphere of domestic life. .

<gasp!> Next thing you know, women will get the VOTE!

The consequences of crossing this line are many and unpredictable, but likely would include an increase in the power and reach of the state toward whatever ends it seeks to pursue.

So the family will be undermined by same-sex marriage, and this gives more power to the state than the family unit. But in doing so, the rights of individuals to marry whom they choose is enhanced, because the individual has more power than the family.

Therefore, same-sex unions give more power to the people! Yeah babeeee!

Interesting thread. I gotta go train now though. Lats and delts tonightâ???¦

 

[NordicNacho]

its getting scary here in cali

this really scares me Im just happy I live in Claremont and don't have to deal with these people

Prop 8 spokesman says defeating same-sex marriage is like defeating Hitler

YouTube Video

 

[Big Smoothy]

you have facts that the LDS religion is a cult? your stating an opinion, nothing more. like stated above, all organized religion could be considered a cult, it just depends what the definition is.

True.

I think other "religions" are ideologies and/or cults. It depends on the definition.

Mormonism:

Did Jesus come to the present day United States after crucifixion and try to convert the native American Indians?

That's what Mormons believe. I personally, don't believe it.

Did Joseph Smith find the golden plates? Where are they? Nobody knows.

Were black people once white? This is what Mormons believe?

Can Mormons become gods after death? This is what Mormons, believe.


And this is only the beginning of Mormon theology.

One of my cousins converted, BTW.

 

[theCaptn']

will you jews just STFU?

 

[DOMS]

Like anyone should care what you think.

I support the insurgents. I support road-side bombs. I support snipers.

The Americans in Iraq are fascists.

uneducated, poorly read, no knowledge of Iraqi history,

they deserve what they get.

 

[Big Smoothy]

Like anyone should care what you think.

I made a post on this topic, because DOMS redding for a post about Mormons.

That's the only reason why I posted on this old topic.

And as for my quote, DOMS, I still stand by - I still believe in it.

And if the Americans stay in Afghanistan more than a year or two for their geo-political interests,

I'll believe and say, and post, the same thing about the military sheep in Afghanistan.

Note my signature below, said by Henry Kissinger.

 

[DOMS]

I support the insurgents. I support road-side bombs. I support snipers.

The Americans in Iraq are fascists.

uneducated, poorly read, no knowledge of Iraqi history,

they deserve what they get.

And as for my quote, DOMS, I still stand by - I still believe in it.

I doubt that I'll be the only person giving you negative rep today.

 

[Big Smoothy]

^ DOMS,

It doesn't matter.

Who cares what my opinion is? It's a web forum.

 

[bio-chem]

I made a post on this topic, because DOMS redding for a post about Mormons.

That's the only reason why I posted on this old topic.

And as for my quote, DOMS, I still stand by - I still believe in it.

And if the Americans stay in Afghanistan more than a year or two for their geo-political interests,

I'll believe and say, and post, the same thing about the military sheep in Afghanistan.

Note my signature below, said by Henry Kissinger.

-1

seriously dude, military sheep in iraq and Afghanistan? you can hate the politicians that have our troops on foreign soil all you want. both republican and democrat, but wishing evil on a kid who saw the opportunities provided by the military and is now following orders is closed minded, ignorant, and really takes callous stupidity to a whole new level.

 

[bio-chem]

True.

I think other "religions" are ideologies and/or cults. It depends on the definition.

Mormonism:

Did Jesus come to the present day United States after crucifixion and try to convert the native American Indians?

That's what Mormons believe. I personally, don't believe it.

Did Joseph Smith find the golden plates? Where are they? Nobody knows.

Were black people once white? This is what Mormons believe?

Can Mormons become gods after death? This is what Mormons, believe.


And this is only the beginning of Mormon theology.

One of my cousins converted, BTW.

you know it's funny. every time anti's start posting up stuff about mormons the membership rolls grow. I wonder why that is?

 

[Big Smoothy]

-1

seriously dude, military sheep in iraq and Afghanistan? you can hate the politicians that have our troops on foreign soil all you want. both republican and democrat, but wishing evil on a kid who saw the opportunities provided by the military and is now following orders is closed minded, ignorant, and really takes callous stupidity to a whole new level.

That is the problem.

The "kid" is an adult. There are NO KIDS in the military.

And "opportunities?"

That is another problem. High school educated American should not be allowed in the military.

Too young, too uneducated. Minds too easily molded by the military at the young age.

Nobody "sends" these adult to Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, Afghanistan, or Pakistan.

Same now, as 150 years ago.

 

[ALBOB]

That is the problem.

The "kid" is an adult. There are NO KIDS in the military.

And "opportunities?"

That is another problem. High school educated American should not be allowed in the military.

Too young, too uneducated. Minds too easily molded by the military at the young age.

Nobody "sends" these adult to Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, Afghanistan, or Pakistan.

Same now, as 150 years ago.

Let's see; they're adults when it suits your purposes. Then they're too young when it suits your purposes. Then the go back to being adults when it suits your purposes. Care to remind us why on Earth anyone should give ANYTHING you say and credibility at all?

And on a personal note, as someone who spent 23 years being an adult that was too young, too dumb and too unable to form my own opinions, FUCK YOU.

 

[Pirate!]

True.
Mormonism:

Did Jesus come to the present day United States after crucifixion and try to convert the native American Indians?
That's what Mormons believe. I personally, don't believe it.
Did Joseph Smith find the golden plates? Where are they? Nobody knows.
Were black people once white? This is what Mormons believe?
Can Mormons become gods after death? This is what Mormons, believe.


And this is only the beginning of Mormon theology.

This is neither the beginning nor the end of the Mormon Theology. For those who prefer truth to rumor, here are the 13 basic beliefs of the LDS, as penned by Joseph Smith Junior:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.


We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.


We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.


We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.


We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.


We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.


We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.


We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.


We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.


We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.


We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.


We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.


We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul???We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

 

[maniclion]

I'm glad Big Smoothy is here he makes me, when I fall into my most leftist ideological mindtrap, look like Barry Goldwater....

 

[lnvanry]

That is the problem.

The "kid" is an adult. There are NO KIDS in the military.

And "opportunities?"

That is another problem. High school educated American should not be allowed in the military.

Too young, too uneducated. Minds too easily molded by the military at the young age.

Nobody "sends" these adult to Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, Afghanistan, or Pakistan.

Same now, as 150 years ago.

Thats kind of the whole point...which is why you need special exemption to join after a certain age. You aren't as "moldable"

The Dept of War (post WWII) had first asked to include service members as young as 16...the public support for that was nill, so they made the boy scouts instead.

 

[Big Smoothy]

you know it's funny. every time anti's start posting up stuff about mormons the membership rolls grow. I wonder why that is?

Bio-Chem,

Please provide a source and data that "Mormon membership growing" when "anti's start posting."

We are waiting..

 

[Big Smoothy]

Let's see; they're adults when it suits your purposes. Then they're too young when it suits your purposes. Then the go back to being adults when it suits your purposes.

No,

In the US a person is an adult at the age of 18 years of age.

"kids" are younger than 18.

Period. It's a definition. And I responded to a post the mist-labeled Adults - which is what they are - as kids.

 

[Big Smoothy]

I'm glad Big Smoothy is here he makes me, when I fall into my most leftist ideological mindtrap, look like Barry Goldwater....

Manic, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

As for me, I vote Libertarian. I started voting Libertarian in 1996.


I don't like, and I don't believe in the false paradigm of "left" and "right," or "liberal" or "conservative."

Both are more similar than different, and these labels are used to often to over-generalize and applied incorrectly.

These labels - are for the masses. These labels, are for the sheeple.

 

[KelJu]

These labels - are for the masses. These labels, are for the sheeple.

Hey, I like that word...sheeple.

I plan to use that in the future.

 

[maniclion]

Manic, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

As for me, I vote Libertarian. I started voting Libertarian in 1996.


I don't like, and I don't believe in the false paradigm of "left" and "right," or "liberal" or "conservative."

Both are more similar than different, and these labels are used to often to over-generalize and applied incorrectly.

These labels - are for the masses. These labels, are for the sheeple.

You constantly attack the wrong people and put them down, sheeple my ass you think the common man doesn't already knows he's been sold to the slaughter house? Let me tell you man when the herd stampedes the wolf gets trampled....

YouTube Video

 

[Big Smoothy]

You constantly attack the wrong people and put them down,

manic,

I don't want to "put anyone down." I do criticize, but I criticize organizations and the people that work for them and promote their interest without questioning those interests.

I get "put down" quite a bit - on a personal basis. But I don't launch into ad hominum (personal) attacks on posters here.

sheeple my ass you think the common man doesn't already knows he's been sold to the slaughter house? Let me tell you man when the herd stampedes the wolf gets trampled....

I at times, am a sheep (sheeple). I constantly try to question what information I am receiving, check it, and ask myself, am I too biased?

We are all human.

But there are many, many, people (in my family, e.g.) and friends back in the USA that don't even question what they see on TV and hear on the radio, and read in those daily newspapers.

They have lost the ability to criticaly think - critically think - and they are loud and rude about it.

There are millions of these folks.

People, that are sheep are, sheeple.

 

[maniclion]

manic,

I don't want to "put anyone down." I do criticize, but I criticize organizations and the people that work for them and promote their interest without questioning those interests.

I get "put down" quite a bit - on a personal basis. But I don't launch into ad hominum (personal) attacks on posters here.



I at times, am a sheep (sheeple). I constantly try to question what information I am receiving, check it, and ask myself, am I too biased?

We are all human.

But there are many, many, people (in my family, e.g.) and friends back in the USA that don't even question what they see on TV and hear on the radio, and read in those daily newspapers.

They have lost the ability to criticaly think - critically think - and they are loud and rude about it.

There are millions of these folks.

People, that are sheep are, sheeple.

Let me tell you, you'll never inspire anyone to look a little deeper by insulting them....

 

[ALBOB]

I don't want to "put anyone down."

No, you just want them blown to bits by roadside bombs or picked off by snipers. Nice.

 

[bio-chem]

Let's see; they're adults when it suits your purposes. Then they're too young when it suits your purposes. Then the go back to being adults when it suits your purposes. Care to remind us why on Earth anyone should give ANYTHING you say and credibility at all?

And on a personal note, as someone who spent 23 years being an adult that was too young, too dumb and too unable to form my own opinions, FUCK YOU.

I'd rep you if the system would let me.

 

[bio-chem]

I'm glad Big Smoothy is here he makes me, when I fall into my most leftist ideological mindtrap, look like Barry Goldwater....

 

[bio-chem]

Bio-Chem,

Please provide a source and data that "Mormon membership growing" when "anti's start posting."

We are waiting..

keep waiting. i could care less if you accept fact or not. The LDS faith is the fastest growing faith in the United States.

 

[bio-chem]

Thats kind of the whole point...which is why you need special exemption to join after a certain age. You aren't as "moldable"

The Dept of War (post WWII) had first asked to include service members as young as 16...the public support for that was nill, so they made the boy scouts instead.

Boy Scouts of America founded February 8, 1910

 

[DOMS]

I'd rep you if the system would let me.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ALBOB again."

Damn...

 

[maniclion]

keep waiting. i could care less if you accept fact or not. The LDS faith is the fastest growing faith in the United States.

LSD Faith I'm in!!!!!!!!!!

oh wait you said LDS, never mind....