Your Sexuality?

[Pepper]

Normally I'd stay miles away from these discussions, but John's actually right - Jesus NEVER said one word about homosexuality. Read the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Paul's letters in the New Testament are where it's mentioned, and I'm convinced Paul attached homosexuality since he was repressing his own attraction for men (he called it the "thorn in my side"). Pepper, instead of calling someone ignorant, quote the book and verse where Jesus PERSONALLY mentions homosexuality. Otherwise stop stooping to cheap attacks.

Whoa now, wait a minute. Read John's posts here and everywhere. He is constantly saying that God says nothing about homosexuality. He is dead wrong. Paul, in God's word, mentions it. Stating that the Bible is OK with Homosexuality is absurd. I am sorry if that offends you, but it is.

I get really tired of liberal Christians trying to retro-fit the Bible to fit their agenda. What is funny, is they pick and issue where the Bible is pretty clear.

What is funny to me is that you accuse me of cheap attacks when John H. posts a ridiculously cheap assault on Christianity with nearly every post.

I suggest you use the search feature before you jump on my case.

 

[Pepper]

Jesus also never said anything directly about rape, incest or domestic violence. Are those things okay, too?

 

[Pepper]

Christ used the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of God???s wrath (Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12 and Luke 17:29). Throughout the Old Testament, prophets clearly described these cities as being notorious for the practice of homosexuality (Genesis 18:20, Genesis 19:4-5, Isaiah 3:9, Jeremiah 23:14, Ezekiel 16:46-59). Jesus certainly knew that this was how the comparison would be understood.

 

[Minotaur]

Jesus also never said anything directly about rape, incest or domestic violence. Are those things okay, too?

That's a lame comeback.

Jesus was against anything that hurt other people. I think that as a "Christian" you would know that. Being homosexual and loving someone of the same sex hurts no one. If two people are in love, where is the hurt?

Like others who claim to know the bible, you know nothing and you read it literally, in all its glorious and perverted mistranslations. It makes me sick to think that people like you call yourselves Christians. You are like the Scribes and Pharisees that Jesus railed against: you speak the letter of the law but don't know the spirit of it.

And the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT homosexuality. It was inhospitality to strangers. One of the highest codes of moral conduct among Middle Easterners, even today, is to show hospitality. The comfort of your guest is your prime concern. The denizens of Sodom and Gomorrah ignored that.

And if they were homosexual, why would Lot offer his DAUGHTERS to the men?

 

[Pepper]

That's a lame comeback.

Jesus was against anything that hurt other people. I think that as a "Christian" you would know that. Being homosexual and loving someone of the same sex hurts no one. If two people are in love, where is the hurt?

Like others who claim to know the bible, you know nothing and you read it literally, in all its glorious and perverted mistranslations. It makes me sick to think that people like you call yourselves Christians. You are like the Scribes and Pharisees that Jesus railed against: you speak the letter of the law but don't know the spirit of it.

And the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT homosexuality. It was inhospitality to strangers. One of the highest codes of moral conduct among Middle Easterners, even today, is to show hospitality. The comfort of your guest is your prime concern. The denizens of Sodom and Gomorrah ignored that.

And if they were homosexual, why would Lot offer his DAUGHTERS to the men?

So, Jesus is OK with ANY sin? That is my point. Of course he was kind to sinners. THAT is the lesson today's Christians need to learn, but that in no way implies that He accepted homosexuality. He was kind to a prostitute, do you then imply that Christ does not think prostitution is a sin?

 

[Pepper]

. You are like the Scribes and Pharisees that Jesus railed against: you speak the letter of the law but don't know the spirit of it.

Thanks for the laugh. Just mold the Bible to conform to your beliefs. Honestly, do you REALLY think that Christ's teachings, taken as a whole, lead a reasonable man to believe homosexuality is not a sin?

This is not simply a matter of "taking the Bible too literally." I struggle with those guys everyday and they frustrate me. However, I don't understand how you can read the Bible and come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin. You are simply trying to retrofit the Bible around your lifestyle.

 

[Pepper]

And the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT homosexuality. It was inhospitality to strangers. One of the highest codes of moral conduct among Middle Easterners, even today, is to show hospitality. The comfort of your guest is your prime concern. The denizens of Sodom and Gomorrah ignored that.

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a strange one and it is true that it cannot be simplified to one of God punishing gays. To that extent, I agree with you. However, sexual sin was was a huge part of the judgement of S&G. Part of the sexual sin was homosexuality.

The part about Lot offering his daughters just blows my mind. However, it does illustrate how important the responsibility to protect your houseguests was. To offer your daughters!?!

 

[Pepper]

One final comment...It is clear from your comments and those of others that it is not enough for Christians to say that they respect you, have compassion for you and even love you BUT we believe that homosexuality is a sin. That is tolerance.

You want me to change my belief, ignore the Bible and say that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. There is a lot of sin in my life, so I do not judge you or anyone else, however, I can't just ignore the Bible because you want me too.

 

[Minotaur]

Honestly, do you REALLY think that Christ's teachings, taken as a whole, lead a reasonable man to believe homosexuality is not a sin?

Yes.

This is not simply a matter of "taking the Bible too literally." I struggle with those guys everyday and they frustrate me. However, I don't understand how you can read the Bible and come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin. You are simply trying to retrofit the Bible around your lifestyle.

Those guys? And they frustrate you? Who the fuck are you?

I am not retrofitting anything. I accept that the bible has been corrupted and mistranslated through the centuries and reflects what the church fathers at the time wanted it to say. How do explain that the word homosexual is in modern English translations, but there is no word in the Greek of the New Testament for homosexual? How do you explain that the word homosexual is a compound of Greek homo (same) and Latin sexualis? Hmm? Yet the word appears in English translations of the bible and does not exist in the original writings? Are you going to seriously tell me there is no corruption in translation?

Well, believe what you want if it gives you comfort. If it preserves your world view so be it. You know nothing of either the bible's history or of homosexuality.

 

[Minotaur]

One final comment...It is clear from your comments and those of others that it is not enough for Christians to say that they respect you, have compassion for you and even love you BUT we believe that homosexuality is a sin. That is tolerance.

You want me to change my belief, ignore the Bible and say that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. There is a lot of sin in my life, so I do not judge you or anyone else, however, I can't just ignore the Bible because you want me too.

Oh stop the drama! Another person's sexuality has nothing at all to do with you! You shouldn't even be thinking about it. Why are you?

 

[Pepper]

Why do you bother in these threads? You can't talk about this without getting all worked up.

Believe what you want, I don't give a shit.

 

[Minotaur]

Why do you bother in these threads? You can't talk about this without getting all worked up.

Believe what you want, I don't give a shit.

I get involved because there are other people who may be influenced and understand. It's not all about you, you know. I also bother because you have no right or knowledge to tell me what it is to be homosexual, or what I feel.

I am not worked up, but as Jesus said... There is none so blind as he who will not see. I've presented writings over and over again refuting your sacred-held beliefs in the literal interpretation of the bible and you refuse to accept them, even though they are from degreed writers.

I don't know what your background is, but I doubt it is as a linguistics or biblical history scholar. Yet you have the temerity to write off what degreed authors have said.

Wait... I am worked up... over ignorance and intellectual blindness under the false guise of piety and faith. Yours is not faith, but rote. You don't know what is behind the writings you so literally intepret.

And to call yourself a Christian and yet say that a group of people frustrate you? I asked before... who are you to make such a judgement? You still didn't answer that question. And then you claim "ooh, but I am a sinner". You're a hypocrite, just like the ones Jesus chastised.

Have a nice life and I hope one day you can really understand what a Christian is. Hint: it's NOT someone who knows how to quote the bible. Even Shakespeare said "The devil can quote Scripture to his purpose".

 

[bio-chem]

That's a lame comeback.

Jesus was against anything that hurt other people. I think that as a "Christian" you would know that. Being homosexual and loving someone of the same sex hurts no one. If two people are in love, where is the hurt?

Like others who claim to know the bible, you know nothing and you read it literally, in all its glorious and perverted mistranslations. It makes me sick to think that people like you call yourselves Christians. You are like the Scribes and Pharisees that Jesus railed against: you speak the letter of the law but don't know the spirit of it.

And the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT homosexuality. It was inhospitality to strangers. One of the highest codes of moral conduct among Middle Easterners, even today, is to show hospitality. The comfort of your guest is your prime concern. The denizens of Sodom and Gomorrah ignored that.

And if they were homosexual, why would Lot offer his DAUGHTERS to the men?

perhaps the hurt is to the children which are sometimes involved indirectly in these relationships. society as a whole is damaged, to name a few.

 

[bio-chem]

Yes.



Those guys? And they frustrate you? Who the fuck are you?

I am not retrofitting anything. I accept that the bible has been corrupted and mistranslated through the centuries and reflects what the church fathers at the time wanted it to say. How do explain that the word homosexual is in modern English translations, but there is no word in the Greek of the New Testament for homosexual? How do you explain that the word homosexual is a compound of Greek homo (same) and Latin sexualis? Hmm? Yet the word appears in English translations of the bible and does not exist in the original writings? Are you going to seriously tell me there is no corruption in translation?

Well, believe what you want if it gives you comfort. If it preserves your world view so be it. You know nothing of either the bible's history or of homosexuality.

sounds more like your trying to convince yourself.

 

[bio-chem]

Oh stop the drama! Another person's sexuality has nothing at all to do with you! You shouldn't even be thinking about it. Why are you?

this is another thread started by john in an open forum. she has as much right to post as anyone. and if she feels this is a sin she has the right to say so, just like you have the right to say its not. this is an issue that effects society i would hope everyone would think about it and decide for themselves.

 

[min0 lee]

 

[bio-chem]

I get involved because there are other people who may be influenced and understand. It's not all about you, you know. I also bother because you have no right or knowledge to tell me what it is to be homosexual, or what I feel.

I am not worked up, but as Jesus said... There is none so blind as he who will not see. I've presented writings over and over again refuting your sacred-held beliefs in the literal interpretation of the bible and you refuse to accept them, even though they are from degreed writers.

I don't know what your background is, but I doubt it is as a linguistics or biblical history scholar. Yet you have the temerity to write off what degreed authors have said.

Wait... I am worked up... over ignorance and intellectual blindness under the false guise of piety and faith. Yours is not faith, but rote. You don't know what is behind the writings you so literally intepret.

And to call yourself a Christian and yet say that a group of people frustrate you? I asked before... who are you to make such a judgement? You still didn't answer that question. And then you claim "ooh, but I am a sinner". You're a hypocrite, just like the ones Jesus chastised.

Have a nice life and I hope one day you can really understand what a Christian is. Hint: it's NOT someone who knows how to quote the bible. Even Shakespeare said "The devil can quote Scripture to his purpose".

im not sure what pepper's background is in linguistics or bible history, but
i find it pretty presumptuous that you would assume you are in some way more qualified than her. i agree the bible is not translated correctly 100% of the time. that does not mean you can twist and manipulate the scriptures to say your personal weakness is not a sin. im more than prepared to discuss any "mistranslation" of the bible you think you can come up with. you are quick to point out the original greek does not use a word for homo-sexuality. big deal. do you speak another language? i do. and i know that when translateing there is not always a word for word translation available. i have studied the greek manuscripts as well and while the word homo-sexual in not in the greek version the meaning is the same. i hardly find any of peppers posts to show her to be a hypocrite. in the bible or not homo-sexuality is a sin. it was in ancient judaism of which Jesus was born, and in early christianity which Jesus started. in no extra-biblical sources that remain to us to this day of early judeo-christian history is there any evidence that homo-sexuality was ever accepted or allowed to be practiced among its members. to argue as such is ridiculous. but to each his own i guess

 

[Minotaur]

this is an issue that effects society i would hope everyone would think about it and decide for themselves.

No it isn't. Society has made it its business by being concerned with something that is none of its concern. My homosexuality and whom I live and sleep with is of no concern to you or anyone else, nor does it affect you or anyone else in any way. Show me how it does. And no one has to decide about anything.

The problem is that some of you, especially conservative fundamentalist Christians are control freaks. What is not under your control or does not fit into your nice little ordered view of the world is deviant. You can't think outside the box.

And hold the drivel about children being affected. It's propaganda that you keep parroting. Children are more damaged by a household of a mother and father who are alcoholics and/or drug users than by two clean and sober loving fathers who provide for the childrens' needs.

There are no studies or evidence to show that children raised by a same sex couple are at any more of a disadvantage than children raised by a hetero couple with everything else being equal,. Show me where I am wrong. You can't.

 

[Minotaur]

i have studied the greek manuscripts as well and while the word homo-sexual in not in the greek version the meaning is the same. i hardly find any of peppers posts to show her to be a hypocrite. in the bible or not homo-sexuality is a sin. it was in ancient judaism of which Jesus was born, and in early christianity which Jesus started. in no extra-biblical sources that remain to us to this day of early judeo-christian history is there any evidence that homo-sexuality was ever accepted or allowed to be practiced among its members. to argue as such is ridiculous. but to each his own i guess

You truly are blind and stubborn...

http://www.truluck.com/
http://www.truluck.com/html/the_bible_and_homosexuality.html

I'd like to see you refute these writings at a scholarly level.

 

[Pepper]

First off, bio, I am 100% dude.

Second, Minotaur, I have said only that the teachings of Christ and the Bible hold that homosexuality, or any sex outside of marriage, is a sin. That is simply all I have said. I have not judged you. I have no problem with homosexuals, I simply stand up to disagree with those who try to retro-fit the Bible to justify their lifestyle.

I have not bashed gays even in the slightest. I have a VERY good friend who is lesbian. I have enormous respect for her and meet her often for drinks.

You on the other hand have called me numerous names, suggested that I am not a true Christian, called me ignorant. All because I don't agree with your interpretation of scripture.

You, sir, are much more of an oppressive bigot than I ever will be.

 

[Pepper]

im not sure what pepper's background is in linguistics or bible history, but
i find it pretty presumptuous that you would assume you are in some way more qualified than her. i agree the bible is not translated correctly 100% of the time. that does not mean you can twist and manipulate the scriptures to say your personal weakness is not a sin. im more than prepared to discuss any "mistranslation" of the bible you think you can come up with. you are quick to point out the original greek does not use a word for homo-sexuality. big deal. do you speak another language? i do. and i know that when translateing there is not always a word for word translation available. i have studied the greek manuscripts as well and while the word homo-sexual in not in the greek version the meaning is the same. i hardly find any of peppers posts to show her to be a hypocrite. in the bible or not homo-sexuality is a sin. it was in ancient judaism of which Jesus was born, and in early christianity which Jesus started. in no extra-biblical sources that remain to us to this day of early judeo-christian history is there any evidence that homo-sexuality was ever accepted or allowed to be practiced among its members. to argue as such is ridiculous. but to each his own i guess

Other than calling me a woman, this post is excellent.

 

[Minotaur]

Second, Minotaur, I have said only that the teachings of Christ and the Bible hold that homosexuality, or any sex outside of marriage, is a sin.

And you are wrong about homosexuality.

You on the other hand have called me numerous names, suggested that I am not a true Christian, called me ignorant. All because I don't agree with your interpretation of scripture.

You, sir, are much more of an oppressive bigot that I ever will be.

If you kept your interpretation and your opinions of scripture and gays to yourself, you would not be complaining now. You opened the door.

Good try in spinning it so I am the oppressor and bigot. Wha wha wha! I have no tolerance for people who wear their religion and their pride in their religion on their sleeves.

And I ask for the THIRD time: who are those guys (I'm going to assume gay guys) who frustrate you and why? Who are you that they should frustrate you?

 

[Pepper]

I get involved because there are other people who may be influenced and understand. It's not all about you, you know. I also bother because you have no right or knowledge to tell me what it is to be homosexual, or what I feel.

I am not worked up, but as Jesus said... There is none so blind as he who will not see. I've presented writings over and over again refuting your sacred-held beliefs in the literal interpretation of the bible and you refuse to accept them, even though they are from degreed writers.

I don't know what your background is, but I doubt it is as a linguistics or biblical history scholar. Yet you have the temerity to write off what degreed authors have said.

Wait... I am worked up... over ignorance and intellectual blindness under the false guise of piety and faith. Yours is not faith, but rote. You don't know what is behind the writings you so literally intepret.

And to call yourself a Christian and yet say that a group of people frustrate you? I asked before... who are you to make such a judgement? You still didn't answer that question. And then you claim "ooh, but I am a sinner". You're a hypocrite, just like the ones Jesus chastised.

Have a nice life and I hope one day you can really understand what a Christian is. Hint: it's NOT someone who knows how to quote the bible. Even Shakespeare said "The devil can quote Scripture to his purpose".

Where I have said that I have no sin in my life? Either you are confusing my posts with someone else are you our of your fucking mind.

To be specific, I struggle with "lust." That is sin, pure and simple. So, how am I hypocritical? I say one thing is a sin and I say the other is. I am no better than you.

If me stating that homosexuality is a sin upsets you so much, I apologize. It is what I believe. It is a reasonable interpretation of Scripture. I've said over and over that I do not judge you b/c I have plenty of sin in my life. I don't think I have been unreasonable but yet you have been very harsh and critical.

One day, we will all know the answer to this and other questions. Until then, I am done arguing with you.

 

[Pepper]

And you are wrong about homosexuality.



If you kept your interpretation and your opinions of scripture and gays to yourself, you would not be complaining now. You opened the door.

Good try in spinning it so I am the oppressor and bigot. Wha wha wha! I have no tolerance for people who wear their religion and their pride in their religion on their sleeves.

And I ask for the THIRD time: who are those guys (I'm going to assume gay guys) who frustrate you and why? Who are you that they should frustrate you?

The people who frustrate me are the ones who interpret the Bible too literally. The ones that lack the compassion to deal with people who are gay. The ones who fail to recognize their own sin.

I have not bashed gays even in the slightest. The only frustrations I have with gays are that they want me to accept their lifestyle as "right." As if I don't have the right to disagree with their actions. They want tolerance but lack tolerance. I think you are about as good of an example of what is wrong with the gay movement as I could find. All hate. If you don't 100% accept the gay lifestyle, you are a homophobic bigot. It turns people off.

How many different ways do I need to say that I have my own issues to deal with?

 

[Pepper]

If you kept your interpretation and your opinions of scripture and gays to yourself, you would not be complaining now. You opened the door.

So, you have a right to your opinion, but I don't.

What an open-minded guy you are. I am so inspired.

 

[Minotaur]

So, you have a right to your opinion, but I don't.

What an open-minded guy you are. I am so inspired.

I'm not offering my opinion... I'm responding to the inane and uniformed and bigoted comments others, including you, make about homosexuality. I know something of homosexuality. What do you know of it? Go back over all my posts and see where is the first time I have offered an opinion that was NOT a response to someone else, namely you and the equally uninformed bio-chem. You won't find any post by me where I open the door to this subject.

 

[Pepper]

WTF does that mean? My post was in response to John H.

 

[bio-chem]

my bad pepper, i dont know why i put her in my post. apologies.

and minotaur look who started this thread. this wasnt started by some ultra-radical christian trying to push their agenda on the rest of the world. on the contrary it was started by john h. enough said.

 

[bio-chem]

well i looked at that site minotaur and all i can say is that might possibly be the worst use of the bible i have ever see. to use that to reconcile your belief in God with your personal life is really grasping at straws. i really dont know where to begin with that site. perhaps if you chose one thing specifically from that site we could discuss it and then move on to the next thing.

that is hardly a scholarly approach to the correct meaning of the bible. it is the approach of one trying to defend that which is indefenseable. more of a smoke screen really. like i said show me extra-biblical sourses showing homo-sexuality was practiced in judeao-christian history. let me give you an example.

the practice of baptism is a point of contention throughout christianity. what age is it necessary and how to perform it are much debated throughout the many christian religions. however when one studdies it using both the bible and early texts of that time period it is rather evident it was practiced among those able to make the choice for themselves and performed by immersion. no religion will debate that is how the early christian church practiced and performed this ordinance. and by early christian i mean pre 200 AD.

what i am asking for is the same evidence over homo-sexuality. if in fact was part of the church established by Jesus Christ then some outside source will show this. the truth is, it does not. throughout judeo-christian history, even before the bible was corrupted and mistranslated homo-sexuality was not a part of that religion.

it is my belief to be a true diciple of Christ we must find the religion that is the same as the one as Jesus Christ himself established personally. it will have the same organisation, same ordincances and same priesthood. basically one that teaches the truth of Jesus Christ and his gospel despite the problems we have with the bible as we have it.

 

[ISuckPenisImGay]

I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!???? I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!???? I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!???? :: I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!???? I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!???? I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!???? I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!???? : I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!???? : I BE GAY WHO WANTS TO GIVE IT TO ME IN THE ASS!!????